NS Military Realism Consultation Thread Vol. 11.0

[Taihei Tengoku]

Oplot works fine, has the bonus of having a 120mm smoothbore conversion worked out already

[Hrstrovokia]

Hello again, RCT! Long time NSer here, went inactive for a couple of years and I am now building my new nation, which is basically a retool of the old one with lessons learned. I have some questions about tanks; specifically, which platform/general vague direction I should go with for tanks in my nation.

Some RP stuff, in case it helps for context-

My nation is RP-wise a hyper-capitalist former-Soviet breakaway republic that started in Serbia and absorbed most of the Balkans. This gives you a clue as to the type of old stock I have laying around and what my troops would be familiar with. That being said, rapid modernization and brutal capitalism has turned my nation into an accidental economic superpower; we are friendly with the west and I intend to RP close ties to western corporations, but there is still a very entrenched Eastern Europe/Balkan culture feel that I want to stay true to.

I have always had a soft spot for Eastern-Bloc tanks, but Im trying to be more pragmatic in my approach, and the type of objective, higher-level understanding that you folks have about these things is beyond my mere academic affinity. That being said, assume that cost is not really an issue, considering I have a GDP almost triple that of China with half the population, a defense budget that rivals RL USA in percentage (and indeed highly surpasses in "real" "dollars"), and IC-RP wise, my nation is looking to modernize anyway, considering the horrible hodgepodge mish-mash of what I have now.

Without delving into a massive debate about what makes a tank good or "best" (believe me, I know its far more complicated and multi-faceted than that), in broad terms, within the constraints of what I have, should I try to move in to a phase-in of more Western tank designs, should I bother modernizing and improving the Eastern Bloc stuff with help from a western corporation (this is my MO so far; I already did this for my service rfiles and handguns, and the T-80U Oplot is just ripe for the picking), or should I just dive headfirst into a new original design for maximum autonomy and maximum brain-breaking-homework?

Genuinely invested in what this community will have to say, and of course Im open to any reasonable suggestions and criticisms.

Edited only for clarity and Grammar.

I'm far from the most qualified to answer this, but I'll try to acknowledge some factors which might make your decision for you. I've tried to be consistent RPing with a socialist state that operates Soviet/Russian weaponry. Like you, my nation is wealthy (energy assets similar to Russia) and can afford to spend the money on defense with a big budget. I don't know if I can answer the which tanks are better (West v East) but I think I can illuminate a good strategic decision as to why I made my decided to equip with Eastern stuff - based on keeping a priority with commonality in the defense industry.

Vehicles like the BMP-3 or T-80 are usually based on a similar chassis. This goes across to ATGM Carriers, Self-propelled Guns, SPAAGS, Engineering platforms etc. Commonality in systems probably is a huge bonus in terms of manufacturing and logistics, which are hugely important to the military of your nation. If you are relying on Western corporations to upgrade your equipment, what happens if suddenly there's a blockade or embargo (just like Russia with the Mistral class)?

If you have the time and energy, I would suggest making your own designs, based on equipment you already have. Identify weaknesses with a vehicle or weapon and see where it could be improved.

[Austrasien]

Hello again, RCT! Long time NSer here, went inactive for a couple of years and I am now building my new nation, which is basically a retool of the old one with lessons learned. I have some questions about tanks; specifically, which platform/general vague direction I should go with for tanks in my nation.

Some RP stuff, in case it helps for context-

My nation is RP-wise a hyper-capitalist former-Soviet breakaway republic that started in Serbia and absorbed most of the Balkans. This gives you a clue as to the type of old stock I have laying around and what my troops would be familiar with. That being said, rapid modernization and brutal capitalism has turned my nation into an accidental economic superpower; we are friendly with the west and I intend to RP close ties to western corporations, but there is still a very entrenched Eastern Europe/Balkan culture feel that I want to stay true to.

I have always had a soft spot for Eastern-Bloc tanks, but Im trying to be more pragmatic in my approach, and the type of objective, higher-level understanding that you folks have about these things is beyond my mere academic affinity. That being said, assume that cost is not really an issue, considering I have a GDP almost triple that of China with half the population, a defense budget that rivals RL USA in percentage (and indeed highly surpasses in "real" "dollars"), and IC-RP wise, my nation is looking to modernize anyway, considering the horrible hodgepodge mish-mash of what I have now.

Without delving into a massive debate about what makes a tank good or "best" (believe me, I know its far more complicated and multi-faceted than that), in broad terms, within the constraints of what I have, should I try to move in to a phase-in of more Western tank designs, should I bother modernizing and improving the Eastern Bloc stuff with help from a western corporation (this is my MO so far; I already did this for my service rfiles and handguns, and the T-80U Oplot is just ripe for the picking), or should I just dive headfirst into a new original design for maximum autonomy and maximum brain-breaking-homework?

Genuinely invested in what this community will have to say, and of course Im open to any reasonable suggestions and criticisms.

Edited only for clarity and Grammar.

The simplest option would be to buy Leopard 2A7s. Nothing else is as good off the shelf.

[The Manticoran Empire]

Hello again, RCT! Long time NSer here, went inactive for a couple of years and I am now building my new nation, which is basically a retool of the old one with lessons learned. I have some questions about tanks; specifically, which platform/general vague direction I should go with for tanks in my nation.

Some RP stuff, in case it helps for context-

My nation is RP-wise a hyper-capitalist former-Soviet breakaway republic that started in Serbia and absorbed most of the Balkans. This gives you a clue as to the type of old stock I have laying around and what my troops would be familiar with. That being said, rapid modernization and brutal capitalism has turned my nation into an accidental economic superpower; we are friendly with the west and I intend to RP close ties to western corporations, but there is still a very entrenched Eastern Europe/Balkan culture feel that I want to stay true to.

I have always had a soft spot for Eastern-Bloc tanks, but Im trying to be more pragmatic in my approach, and the type of objective, higher-level understanding that you folks have about these things is beyond my mere academic affinity. That being said, assume that cost is not really an issue, considering I have a GDP almost triple that of China with half the population, a defense budget that rivals RL USA in percentage (and indeed highly surpasses in "real" "dollars"), and IC-RP wise, my nation is looking to modernize anyway, considering the horrible hodgepodge mish-mash of what I have now.

Without delving into a massive debate about what makes a tank good or "best" (believe me, I know its far more complicated and multi-faceted than that), in broad terms, within the constraints of what I have, should I try to move in to a phase-in of more Western tank designs, should I bother modernizing and improving the Eastern Bloc stuff with help from a western corporation (this is my MO so far; I already did this for my service rfiles and handguns, and the T-80U Oplot is just ripe for the picking), or should I just dive headfirst into a new original design for maximum autonomy and maximum brain-breaking-homework?

Genuinely invested in what this community will have to say, and of course Im open to any reasonable suggestions and criticisms.

Edited only for clarity and Grammar.

Two or three options really stand out. The Leopard 2A7, the M1A2 SepV3, and the T-14 are, in my opinion, the three best options out there. The Leopard and M1 are older chassis that have received numerous modifications. However, they have been combat proven and are some of the safest tanks in the world. The T-14 hasn't been proven in battle yet but is also one of the most advanced tanks and has a lot of potential.

To determine if you want to buy American, German, Russian, or Domestic, think about who you are more afraid of. If you fear NATO, buy Russian or Domestic. If you fear Russia, buy American, German, or Domestic. Buying foreign would be a good interim decision while you develop a domestic MBT.

[The Akasha Colony]

Hello again, RCT! Long time NSer here, went inactive for a couple of years and I am now building my new nation, which is basically a retool of the old one with lessons learned. I have some questions about tanks; specifically, which platform/general vague direction I should go with for tanks in my nation.

Some RP stuff, in case it helps for context-

My nation is RP-wise a hyper-capitalist former-Soviet breakaway republic that started in Serbia and absorbed most of the Balkans. This gives you a clue as to the type of old stock I have laying around and what my troops would be familiar with. That being said, rapid modernization and brutal capitalism has turned my nation into an accidental economic superpower; we are friendly with the west and I intend to RP close ties to western corporations, but there is still a very entrenched Eastern Europe/Balkan culture feel that I want to stay true to.

I have always had a soft spot for Eastern-Bloc tanks, but Im trying to be more pragmatic in my approach, and the type of objective, higher-level understanding that you folks have about these things is beyond my mere academic affinity. That being said, assume that cost is not really an issue, considering I have a GDP almost triple that of China with half the population, a defense budget that rivals RL USA in percentage (and indeed highly surpasses in "real" "dollars"), and IC-RP wise, my nation is looking to modernize anyway, considering the horrible hodgepodge mish-mash of what I have now.

Without delving into a massive debate about what makes a tank good or "best" (believe me, I know its far more complicated and multi-faceted than that), in broad terms, within the constraints of what I have, should I try to move in to a phase-in of more Western tank designs, should I bother modernizing and improving the Eastern Bloc stuff with help from a western corporation (this is my MO so far; I already did this for my service rfiles and handguns, and the T-80U Oplot is just ripe for the picking), or should I just dive headfirst into a new original design for maximum autonomy and maximum brain-breaking-homework?

Genuinely invested in what this community will have to say, and of course Im open to any reasonable suggestions and criticisms.

Edited only for clarity and Grammar.

If you are buying off the shelf, buy Leopard 2A7s. If the budget is truly no object then you might even consider adding some of the upgrades that have been demonstrated for other upgrade kits, like an APS.

But a nation that is as large and wealthy as you claim yours is would probably be moving toward developing and building such critical equipment domestically. For obvious national security reasons nations would generally prefer to develop such equipment domestically and it has the additional advantage of developing local industries. But IRL only a handful of nations have the money and the industrial base to develop high-tech military equipment like modern MBTs or combat aircraft which is why wealthy states with little industry like the Gulf oil kingdoms are forced to buy from Europe, the US, and Russia. It sounds like your nation has the money, but I have no idea whether it has the industrial base as this can take much longer to develop.

[Dreviczenko]

I'm far from the most qualified to answer this, but I'll try to acknowledge some factors which might make your decision for you. I've tried to be consistent RPing with a socialist state that operates Soviet/Russian weaponry. Like you, my nation is wealthy (energy assets similar to Russia) and can afford to spend the money on defense with a big budget. I don't know if I can answer the which tanks are better (West v East) but I think I can illuminate a good strategic decision as to why I made my decided to equip with Eastern stuff - based on keeping a priority with commonality in the defense industry.

Vehicles like the BMP-3 or T-80 are usually based on a similar chassis. This goes across to ATGM Carriers, Self-propelled Guns, SPAAGS, Engineering platforms etc. Commonality in systems probably is a huge bonus in terms of manufacturing and logistics, which are hugely important to the military of your nation. If you are relying on Western corporations to upgrade your equipment, what happens if suddenly there's a blockade or embargo (just like Russia with the Mistral class)?

If you have the time and energy, I would suggest making your own designs, based on equipment you already have. Identify weaknesses with a vehicle or weapon and see where it could be improved.

Thanks, that actually helps a lot; I hadnt thought of logisitcs and manufacturing commonality being so large a factor. Gives me something to chew on.

[Dreviczenko]

If you are buying off the shelf, buy Leopard 2A7s. If the budget is truly no object then you might even consider adding some of the upgrades that have been demonstrated for other upgrade kits, like an APS.

But a nation that is as large and wealthy as you claim yours is would probably be moving toward developing and building such critical equipment domestically. For obvious national security reasons nations would generally prefer to develop such equipment domestically and it has the additional advantage of developing local industries. But IRL only a handful of nations have the money and the industrial base to develop high-tech military equipment like modern MBTs or combat aircraft which is why wealthy states with little industry like the Gulf oil kingdoms are forced to buy from Europe, the US, and Russia. It sounds like your nation has the money, but I have no idea whether it has the industrial base as this can take much longer to develop.

To clarify, I didnt just pull these numbers out of thin air, I used NSEconomy (although I wonder how many NSers still use it/value it as useful; a lot has changed since I was last active 2-3 years ago), and my number one industry is Arms Manufacturing according to NS itself. Wait...... Damn. I think you just helped me answer my own question.

Honestly, before your suggestion I hadnt even taken that into account in my thought process. I should be building equipment and vehicles for -other- nations, not worried over which foreign design I should cobble from. If I have this massive industrial base, why wouldnt I just build my own platform, utilizing the very helpful previous suggestion of commonality for ease of manufacture and maintenance.

Ugh. Great. Time to break out the reference material. I know just enough about military design to get into all sorts of dumb ideas.

I will most certainly be back; you guys have been super helpful and I already know Im going to need more consultation on this as I go forward.

[Austrasien]

Thanks, that actually helps a lot; I hadnt thought of logisitcs and manufacturing commonality being so large a factor. Gives me something to chew on.

It isn't if you are importing. If a nation buys something like a few hundred M1A2s they can (and generally do) also buy access to the whole supply chain. For a third party operator it would be cheaper to buy and operate the M1A2 (America) alongside the Boxer APC (Germany) and Archer (Sweden) howitzer, because all of these come with access to the manufacturers support infrastructure; in contrast buying all your systems from Russia or Ukraine will tend to cost more because these countries are notorious for not providing much in the way of support (this is a major source of tensions between India and Russia because India operates vast amounts of Russian hardware; Ukraine is even worse because of the poor state of their defense industry), operators have to invest heavily in their own supporting infrastructure and a number of third party firms have become specialists in providing various supporting services for ex-Soviet hardware to meet the demand.

So it is important to consider how much you actually intend to do "in house". If your military is flush with cash and looking to upgrade soon then the strategy pursued by the Gulf States, buy hardware from major western producers in big blocks and all the supporting services with it, is by far the best strategy. Investing in a domestic industrial base capable of supporting major weapon systems is a long-haul strategy and generally only makes sense if the end goal is to produce your own hardware.

[Dreviczenko]

It isn't if you are importing. If a nation buys something like a few hundred M1A2s they can (and generally do) also buy access to the whole supply chain. For a third party operator it would be cheaper to buy and operate the M1A2 (America) alongside the Boxer APC (Germany) and Archer (Sweden) howitzer, because all of these come with access to the manufacturers support infrastructure; in contrast buying all your systems from Russia or Ukraine will tend to cost more because these countries are notorious for not providing much in the way of support (this is a major source of tensions between India and Russia because India operates vast amounts of Russian hardware; Ukraine is even worse because of the poor state of their defense industry), operators have to invest heavily in their own supporting infrastructure and a number of third party firms have become specialists in providing various supporting services for ex-Soviet hardware to meet the demand.

So it is important to consider how much you actually intend to do "in house". If your military is flush with cash and looking to upgrade soon then the strategy pursued by the Gulf States, buy hardware from major western producers in big blocks and all the supporting services with it, is by far the best strategy. Investing in a domestic industrial base capable of supporting major weapon systems is a long-haul strategy and generally only makes sense if the end goal is to produce your own hardware.

I see what you are saying. Regardless of my actual industrial base and liquidity, it still takes time to design, engineer, prototype, test, and then tool up to actually build stuff. Im thinking you're on to something there. I think the best direction is to just import as a stopgap measure to bring me out of my T-62s,T-64s, and T-72s while also tooling up to build my own stuff. That also has the added bonus of giving me more time to come up with a design that can be domestically produced and (at least somewhat) competitive.

[The Akasha Colony]

I see what you are saying. Regardless of my actual industrial base and liquidity, it still takes time to design, engineer, prototype, test, and then tool up to actually build stuff.

It's actually much more basic than this.

If you are building a tank, it's one thing to design, test, and then manufacture a tank assuming you can pull all of the components off the shelf. But the real question is whether you have the component industries and industrial experience to design all of the systems that go into a tank. Do you have an electronics sector that can provide radiation-hardened electronics? An optics sector that can provide the high-quality optics needed for the awareness systems? An automotive sector that can provide a sufficiently compact, powerful, and reliable engine? A steel industry that can supply the necessary armor-quality steel in the needed quantities for mass production? And lastly, do you have any engineers who are experienced in armored fighting vehicle design who can put these components together in an efficient way to build a proper tank?

Only once you have the basic building block industrial components can you move on to the later stages. And building up these sectors can take decades because it requires building each link in the supply chain and training enough skilled engineers. This is one area (of many) where NSEconomy falters (and why almost no one in this thread bothers with it): it doesn't really model the degree to which these sectors are interdependent, nor the effect that national industrial policy has on the survival of heavy industry. "Arms Manufacturing" isn't really an industry in and of itself, it's just part of a nation's wider industrial output and can't exist without a larger industrial base.

Only a tiny handful of IRL nations have all of the component industries to do this, even among developed nations. Because lots of developed nations like France, the UK, and Italy have surrendered a lot of their heavy industry in favor of white collar sectors that pay more. Only a few nations like Japan and Germany have made a concerted effort to keep their industrial sectors alive.

Im thinking you're on to something there. I think the best direction is to just import as a stopgap measure to bring me out of my T-62s,T-64s, and T-72s while also tooling up to build my own stuff. That also has the added bonus of giving me more time to come up with a design that can be domestically produced and (at least somewhat) competitive.

It is more or less what India and China are doing. India has continued buying equipment abroad while it tries to develop a domestic defense industry, although bureaucratic problems have hampered progress. China has been trying to do this but the Russians have wised up to the fact the Chinese are just blatantly copying their equipment and have been more restrictive with their exports. But this may be too late anyway as the Chinese already have the basic expertise to start building their own equipment from scratch.

[New Vihenia]

So basically for naval propulsion, we might have trend of integrated electric propulsion. So i make myself a corvette. Using Buyan-M and Saar-6 as baseline.

I call this corvette "Persephone"



and some in generic arrangement. The "generator" part in aft is diesel generator, i forgot to add diesel.



a simple statblock :
Disp : 2250 Metric tonnes
Length overall : 96 m
Length waterline : 89 m
width : 12 m
Draft : 3.5 m

As seen. Currently im envisaging an IEP or Integrated electric propulsion. Mainly for future proofing and the fact the corvette will have multi faced phased array radars and other electronics. The electrical power consumption (Hotel loads, electronics) However i expect wont be higher than several hundreds of Kilowatt to at most 1-2 MegaWatt.

I did a simple calculations on resistance and power requirement, indicating that 2 LM-2500 class turbines would be needed for 30 Knot dash speed (60249 SHP needed). While for patrol speed of like 10 knot it need only 2231 SHP. Easily provided by diesel generator. Thing i wonder however is that, how this IEP work ?. clearly at slow speed, there would be excess power and something has to be done for it. Which could be battery or shutting down turbines. Talking about battery, i wonder if the diesel generator can then be dispensed entirely or scaled down just to provide backup emergency power ?

[Taihei Tengoku]

At low power you could shut down one or both of the turbines and then just turn them back on again when you need to go fast. It will take a couple minutes but gas turbines are fairly quick to start as far as marine propulsion goes.

[United Earthlings]

you are so cool

Hello again, RCT! Long time NSer here, went inactive for a couple of years and I am now building my new nation, which is basically a retool of the old one with lessons learned. I have some questions about tanks; specifically, which platform/general vague direction I should go with for tanks in my nation.

Without delving into a massive debate about what makes a tank good or "best" (believe me, I know its far more complicated and multi-faceted than that), in broad terms, within the constraints of what I have, should I try to move in to a phase-in of more Western tank designs, should I bother modernizing and improving the Eastern Bloc stuff with help from a western corporation (this is my MO so far; I already did this for my service rifles and handguns, and the T-80U Oplot is just ripe for the picking), or should I just dive headfirst into a new original design for maximum autonomy and maximum brain-breaking-homework?

Genuinely invested in what this community will have to say, and of course I’m open to any reasonable suggestions and criticisms.

Real World where budgets and deficits matter: Your united Balkan nation {aka: Yugoslavia 2.0} would continue improvements on their M-84s, but thanks to improve access with Western markets would be able to retrofit a better electronics package into the tank which would be the most efficient way to improve the effectiveness of the tank itself without having to spend probably your entire annual defense budget just to replace your entire tank fleet.

NS World: If you’re not doing a new original design for maximum autonomy and maximum brain-breaking-homework then clearly you haven't fully embraced the insanity of NS hard enough.

Red or Blue Pill, the choice is yours, but if you here long enough, everyone eventually takes the Red pill.

I call this corvette "Persephone"

You wound me good sir as that's not a nautical sounding name in the least, especially when there are so many good options to choose from.

Poseidon for the Greek leaning and Neptune for the Roman, Atlantis or my personal favorite can’t ever go wrong with the Kraken.

Given Persephone’s mythos and how you integrate that mythos into your nation’s history, if you haven’t named something to do with nuclear weapons after Persephone your bringing great dishonor to her name, even our nation was wise enough to name a ballistic missile to honor her.

In closing, nice corvette design, but it feels like your trying to make this a one trick pony and turn it into a multirole light frigate design and for that you may be overburdening it since there won’t be enough space for future weapons growth. In addition, just a personal preference, but instead of all those strategic/multipurpose VLSs which for a Corvette design isn’t really required, hence the reclassification as a light frigate, I think for future proofing a dedicated hanger space would be preferable. Your design is even longer than the Saar-6 design which itself is based off another design and yet lacks a hanger by all appearances.

One final thought, given the space limitations, I’m not sure IEP as great as it is would be worth the cost on a Corvette, even a Corvette as large as your proposed design.

[Gallia-]

At low power you could shut down one or both of the turbines and then just turn them back on again when you need to go fast. It will take a couple minutes but gas turbines are fairly quick to start as far as marine propulsion goes.

Use RTGs somewhere instead of dumb lame lithium ion batteries. When you spool up the turbines the helm can be all "atomic batteries to power, turbines to speed," and the conn can respond "roger, ready to move out."

Maximum.

[Taihei Tengoku]

I don't have anything to contextualize this but this slaps

[Hrythingia]

Offering my services should they be wanted for questions regarding company level and downwards infantry warfare and fieldcraft. Experience as a reservist officer in training doing my Mods A and B.

[Gallia-]

I don't have anything to contextualize this but this slaps

Na-na-na-na-na-na-na Batman?

I couldn't find a good video of Adam West doing the thing though.

[The USA of America]

This is a serious question if I may? What is the usual total military strength in numbers of most NS nations and when they go to war against other nations? I like the general concept of no more than 1 % of NS Population as fair, but the other nations way under that 1 % should be able to adjust their population to come close to the highest nation to be fair, or real world nations military strength limit. I have not found any list on NS on nations military strength, and this nations website thread page does not seem to cover NS or RL military strength of nations.

The USA of America.

[The Manticoran Empire]

This is a serious question if I may? What is the usual total military strength in numbers of most NS nations and when they go to war against other nations? I like the general concept of no more than 1 % of NS Population as fair, but the other nations way under that 1 % should be able to adjust their population to come close to the highest nation to be fair, or real world nations military strength limit. I have not found any list on NS on nations military strength, and this nations website thread page does not seem to cover NS or RL military strength of nations.

The USA of America.

It really depends. I stick between 1 and 3% with my nation but I back it up with my high Advancement to basically give my guys top tier technology. In my region, however, I'm quite a bit smaller but I still focus on quality advanced kit.
But really it depends on the region or the RP.

[Crookfur]

This is a serious question if I may? What is the usual total military strength in numbers of most NS nations and when they go to war against other nations? I like the general concept of no more than 1 % of NS Population as fair, but the other nations way under that 1 % should be able to adjust their population to come close to the highest nation to be fair, or real world nations military strength limit. I have not found any list on NS on nations military strength, and this nations website thread page does not seem to cover NS or RL military strength of nations.

The USA of America.

There is no "usual" number as its entirely up to each player to make up what their military would be. Some prefer to try and keep things as "realistic" as possible and stick to a fixed national population/size that is closer to RL nations and use data from a real nation they feel is close to what their nation to be. Others prefer to play the silly numbers ns produces and go to extremes.
The 1percent rule is a historical artifact from days when using pure ns numbers was more popular.
If people feel the need to inflate their military to match other players that's fine as long as the other players are OK with it.

[Hrythingia]

This is a serious question if I may? What is the usual total military strength in numbers of most NS nations and when they go to war against other nations? I like the general concept of no more than 1 % of NS Population as fair, but the other nations way under that 1 % should be able to adjust their population to come close to the highest nation to be fair, or real world nations military strength limit. I have not found any list on NS on nations military strength, and this nations website thread page does not seem to cover NS or RL military strength of nations.

The USA of America.

When you go to war you are limited to what ready assets you have there and then, i.e rapid reaction brigades and local fleet assets.

[The Akasha Colony]

This is a serious question if I may? What is the usual total military strength in numbers of most NS nations and when they go to war against other nations?

There is no universal site-wide rule. There are no universal site-wide rules about any form of RP; the only site-wide rules are basic forum codes of conduct and stuff regulating raiding/defending and the World Assembly.

I like the general concept of no more than 1 % of NS Population as fair, but the other nations way under that 1 % should be able to adjust their population to come close to the highest nation to be fair, or real world nations military strength limit.

Military strength and population and what not are worked out on a per-thread basis by the people in that thread. This is also why regions exist, because regions allow players to form communities with common rules. But there is no particular reason why a nation should suddenly get its size increased in a thread; IRL nations don't suddenly get bigger or smaller to balance out their military strength or size.

I have not found any list on NS on nations military strength, and this nations website thread page does not seem to cover NS or RL military strength of nations.

Because there isn't one.

[New Tussia]

(I'm just tagging this for later. Ignore)

[Hrstrovokia]

Thoughts on a Kliver turret on a Patria APC? I see the UAE already tried the 2K23 turret on a Patria and it's being used in Yemen.

Isn't the Patria better rated than the BMP-3

[The Akasha Colony]

Thoughts on a Kliver turret on a Patria APC? I see the UAE already tried the 2K23 turret on a Patria and it's being used in Yemen.

Isn't the Patria better rated than the BMP-3

"Better rated" in what way?

It would be unsurprising that modern Patria AMVs are better than older BMP-3s given that newer AMV variants are pushing 30 tonnes while BMP-3 is under 20 tonnes. That's a lot of extra weight to play around with for protection, armament, etc. But it also means AMV is getting close to the weight class where tracked vehicles pull ahead of wheeled vehicles in performance.