NS Military Realism Consultation Thread Vol. 11.0

[Deutschess Kaiserreich]

-SNIP-

I wonder for example assaulting a trench. I'm trying to design a doctrine for my nation where it is infantry based.

[Roskian Federation]

http://iiwiki.com/wiki/M-114_Main_Battle_Tank

What makes it "fourth generation?"

Between the gunner and the commander, the commander has more of a reason to be in the turret than the gunner because the commander is the one that benefits from the improved awareness.

Unless there's a funky exchange rate going on, $3.4 million is a tremendous low ball cost for such a tank given its stated features even accounting for "NS efficiency" vs. IRL defense industries. I understand this is probably based on Armata's claimed unit cost, but Armata's APS isn't anywhere near as capable as this one is claimed to be. And Armata's true costs are likely being obscured; after all, it's expensive enough that the Russians are having a hard time justifying their purchase.

The difference between the Afghanit and the Defender are slower interception velocity on the latter and lack of ability to intercept top attack on the former...

the T-14 also has "stealth elements" introduced into the tank, has very different from conventional armor setup, a completely remote turret, and a more powerful engine

[New Vihenia]

Anyone interested in guesstimate method of IRST range ?

Here i presented my method.

Look no further

[Crookfur]

-SNIP-

I wonder for example assaulting a trench. I'm trying to design a doctrine for my nation where it is infantry based.

https://www.armystudyguide.com/content/ ... clea.shtml

[The Akasha Colony]

The difference between the Afghanit and the Defender are slower interception velocity on the latter and lack of ability to intercept top attack on the former...

These are rather fundamental design differences. Afghanit is basically just a rebranded and somewhat improved version of Drozd and has all of the same drawbacks: limited coverage and limited velocity range. There isn't a feasible way to make it protect against top attack munitions without making the roof look like a hedgehog of hardkill countermeasure tubes. It doesn't even protect much of the flanks or any of the rear of the turret.

the T-14 also has "stealth elements" introduced into the tank, has very different from conventional armor setup, a completely remote turret, and a more powerful engine

Beware the Russian Kool-Aid. Armata's armor arrangement is almost certainly more or less the same as existing tanks, it's just focused on the crew pod in the hull rather than on the turret. And maybe it has better steel than the older T-90s, but that alone isn't enough to make it a new generation. Nor is a more powerful engine, given that it's still in the horsepower range of existing engines, or the rather nebulous "stealth elements."

The point of the question is: what features distinguish "fourth generation" tanks from "third generation" tanks? I'm wary of people claiming to have invented a new generation of tank or a new generation of plane without being able to point to what makes them fundamentally different from the previous generation, rather than just a slight improvement of the current generation. Tank generations are more muddled than fighter generations to begin with but aside from the semi-crew-in-hull arrangement, your tank doesn't seem to have any features that distinguishes it from existing third generation MBTs.

[Deutschess Kaiserreich]

Can I ask whether this unit is realistic?

The 72nd cavalry "Death Korps" division

The 72nd cavalry "Death Korps" are among the most mobile forces in the Imperial Army. They have the ability to cross dozens of kilometers in a day. They are among the best for hit and run, Recon, and Reinforcement of units. They are also the best infiltrators in the army and are known to be able to fight behind enemy lines for extended periods and cause havoc. They received their name "Death Korps" during the third Weltkreig and under the command of the current Kaiserin of Germany. Every year ten "Death Korps" are chosen to be in the Imperial guard. While the Kaiserin no longer commands the "Death Korps" but they have pledged their loyalty to her.

History: Note this is an excerpt from my leader's wiki check it here

She would join 72nd Cavalry Division and revolutionize the unit. She drilled into her soldier formation and have them form bonds with their horses. This worked wonders as the horses would rarely be scared by the noises of battle or flinch from their wounds. Her unit was now capable of Reconnaissance, Hit and Run, Reinforcement, and stealth missions Just before the third Weltkrieg began she was promoted to the position of Lieutenant Colonel and was placed in command of the Division. When the Third Weltkreig began her unit was placed in the eastern front. Her unit would see sporadic combat destroying retreating Russian units, Attacking supply lines, and Reconnaissance. However, with the 5th army shattered after Operation Case Blue her unit lost contact with the army and was stuck behind enemy lines. She led hit and run assaults and supply line disruption while stuck behind enemy lines. On August 5, 2013, her unit ambushed Soviet General Lytkin Yefim personal transport convoy and killed him crippling the command structure of the Kursk salient defenses. She returned to her lines to find her division had been given the nickname of "Death Korps" and that she was due for an Iron Cross in Berlin. Instead of leaving her division in Russia she stayed until the Second Battle of Kursk began. Her unit mostly harried the flanks of the salients and attacked isolated or demoralized units. On the second day of the battle, the 72nd cavalry division attacked the scattered remains of the 23rd Soviet heavy tank battalion and prevented them from merging with the 41st Soviet Light tank brigade. However, these engagements would cost her division dearly and she suffered 46% casualties. The Division was withdrawn to Berlin to remain as a Reserve unit.

After her return to Germany, she was given the Iron cross in the Imperial Palace by her father. She would serve as a propaganda figure and when news of her Victory reached the general populace the Recruitment centers noticed a drastic increase in female volunteers. Factory output was noted to have increased in those with mostly female workers. She traveled the nation to raise war support and it was noted that she received many "Love letters" from male members in the Kaiserriech. Just before the Third Weltkreig ended the "Death Korps" received new members and set out to the Chinese front. The "Death Korps" ambushed and chased down retreating Chinese divisions and in the Battle Khalkhin Gol, her division scattered multiple infantry battalions. During the battle, the "Death Korps" smashed a marshaling area that was preparing for a counter attack. Chinese casualties were extremely high in that attack and were recorded to be over 7,000 dead with the "Death Korps" only suffering about a hundred dead. However, during the battle, she was wounded and her horse was killed by an APC. To receive the medical help she and the division were sent to occupied Beijing. However, before she reached Beijing the war ended and she and the division were ordered to return to Berlin for celebration.

The "Death Korps" would return to Berlin and be prominently featured in the victory parade. The "Death Korps" would be included in Kaiser William the third victory speech at the Reichstag. For her victory in the battle of Khalkhin Go, she and most of the "Death Korps" were given Iron Cross (2nd Class). She would remain in Berlin for the rest of the Victory and join her father's feast of victors. She and the "Death Korps" were transferred to occupied China to "assist" in the final peace talks. There they put down several attempted rebellions in Beijing by hidden remnants of the C.P.A. After the peace talks were finalized she and the division were withdrawn to Berlin to serve as a Hornor guard or train other cavalry and special forces.

[Great Aletia]

In the case of attacking a fortified position, one must ask how to do it.

How would you storm a fortified position?

Would you use a massive amount of air power or a massive amount of firepower.

Just curious about the best way to storm a position?

Are you PT or MT? The first thing that comes to mind is a bunker buster. Is that the kind of thing you mean?

[Deutschess Kaiserreich]

In the case of attacking a fortified position, one must ask how to do it.

How would you storm a fortified position?

Would you use a massive amount of air power or a massive amount of firepower.

Just curious about the best way to storm a position?

Are you PT or MT? The first thing that comes to mind is a bunker buster. Is that the kind of thing you mean?

For this question I'm gonna say I'm around 1936

[The Manticoran Empire]

Are you PT or MT? The first thing that comes to mind is a bunker buster. Is that the kind of thing you mean?

For this question I'm gonna say I'm around 1936

Schwerer Gustav.

[Deutschess Kaiserreich]

For this question I'm gonna say I'm around 1936

Schwerer Gustav.

That will never be built cause it's impractical to waste thousands of NSD on the huge cannon to destroy just one trench system. I would like this to be serious, please.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

Schwerer Gustav.

That will never be built cause it's impractical to waste thousands of NSD on the huge cannon to destroy just one trench system. I would like this to be serious, please.

How about underwater ammunition bunkers with 8 meter thick walls, enough to withstand the best 16" APC of WWII?

[Deutschess Kaiserreich]

That will never be built cause it's impractical to waste thousands of NSD on the huge cannon to destroy just one trench system. I would like this to be serious, please.

How about underwater ammunition bunkers with 8 meter thick walls, enough to withstand the best 16" APC of WWII?

TRENCH SYSTEMS! ANSWER THE QUESTION!

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

Actually White Cliff ammunition dump was 30 meters below the sea and had 10 meters of reinforced concrete. This is all but impervious to the 16" Mk. 8 APC.

And trenches can be cleared with an infantry platoon, a tank platoon and a few flamethrowers or a lot of hand grenades. Forts can be taken and/or disabled by glider infantry and their combat engineers using SMG's and explosives.

[Grater Tovakia]

How about underwater ammunition bunkers with 8 meter thick walls, enough to withstand the best 16" APC of WWII?

TRENCH SYSTEMS! ANSWER THE QUESTION!

As this war takes place in 1936 ( I assume) artillery, then a mechanized advance.

[The Manticoran Empire]

Schwerer Gustav.

That will never be built cause it's impractical to waste thousands of NSD on the huge cannon to destroy just one trench system. I would like this to be serious, please.

Gas grenades and sub-machine guns.

[Crookfur]

How about underwater ammunition bunkers with 8 meter thick walls, enough to withstand the best 16" APC of WWII?

TRENCH SYSTEMS! ANSWER THE QUESTION!

You have been given a literal step by step guide as to how a squad/section assaults a trench which in turn has a link to the platoon guide. interwar groups would use more verbal and hand signals to point things out rather than lasers etc but the basics are the same.
Basically the same principles apply as you go up the scale.
You use firepower to suppress the enemy's defensive firepower at the point of attack whilst the assault group moves into contact. At the point of contact the supporting firepower then shifts aim away from the breaching point to ensure the safety of the assault group.
Naturally you would want to play with focusing on weak points and engage in deception operations etc when you are looking at doing an el-alamein level operation.

The Falklands war does give some nice illustration of how more or less purely infantry forces take on dug in positions.

[Korva]

ANSWER THE QUESTION!

[Roskian Federation]

The difference between the Afghanit and the Defender are slower interception velocity on the latter and lack of ability to intercept top attack on the former...

These are rather fundamental design differences. Afghanit is basically just a rebranded and somewhat improved version of Drozd and has all of the same drawbacks: limited coverage and limited velocity range. There isn't a feasible way to make it protect against top attack munitions without making the roof look like a hedgehog of hardkill countermeasure tubes. It doesn't even protect much of the flanks or any of the rear of the turret.

the T-14 also has "stealth elements" introduced into the tank, has very different from conventional armor setup, a completely remote turret, and a more powerful engine

Beware the Russian Kool-Aid. Armata's armor arrangement is almost certainly more or less the same as existing tanks, it's just focused on the crew pod in the hull rather than on the turret. And maybe it has better steel than the older T-90s, but that alone isn't enough to make it a new generation. Nor is a more powerful engine, given that it's still in the horsepower range of existing engines, or the rather nebulous "stealth elements."

The point of the question is: what features distinguish "fourth generation" tanks from "third generation" tanks? I'm wary of people claiming to have invented a new generation of tank or a new generation of plane without being able to point to what makes them fundamentally different from the previous generation, rather than just a slight improvement of the current generation. Tank generations are more muddled than fighter generations to begin with but aside from the semi-crew-in-hull arrangement, your tank doesn't seem to have any features that distinguishes it from existing third generation MBTs.

data-link

[Hrstrovokia]

Can I ask, does this seem realistic Mech Infantry Battalion for a wealthy and militaristic MT Russian-style nation?

x1 Mech Inf Bn which contain:
[Example of a Mech Inf CO]

x3 Mech Inf Plt
x5 BMP-3M IFVs - 50 Personnel

Total: 15 IFVs & 150 Personnel

Example of Plt Composition

[x3 Squads composed of 10 - x1 Squad Leader - AK-74M, x2 Team Leaders - AK-74M w/GP-34, x3 Riflemen - AK-74M + RPG-26, x1 Squad Automatic - RPK-74M [LMG], x3 Crew (Driver/Mechanic, Gunner, Commander - AKS-74U)]
[x1 Weapons Squad of 10 - x1 Squad Leader - AK-74M, x1 Anti-Armour - AK-74M + RPG-7V2 [RPG], x1 Riflemen - AK-74M + PG-7VR rounds, x1 Mortar - M6C-640T + AK-74M, x1 Mortar Assistant - AK-74M + M6 rounds, x1 Gunner - PKM [GPMG], x1 Gunners Assistants - AK-74M, x3 Crew (Driver/Mechanic, Gunner, Commander - AKS-74U)]

[x1 Plt HQ of 10 - x1 Plt Leader - AK-74M, x1 Plt Sergeant - AK-74M w/ GP-34, x1 Medic - AK-74M, x1 Radioman - AK-74M, x1 Grenadier - RG-6 + MP-443, x2 Marksmen - SVD-63M, x3 Crew (Driver/Mechanic, Gunner, Commander - AKS-74U)]

In each Plt , x2 BMP-3M will carry x1 RPG-29 RPG each plus x2 PG-29V rounds. x2 BMP-3M will carry x1 9K333 Verba MANPADs plus x4 9M336 rounds and x1 BMP-3M will carry a AGS-30 GL Dismounted

x1 Reconnaissance Plt
x8 BRM-3K Recce Vehicles - 48 Personnel [x4 Squads of 2 - x4 ZALA 421-12 Micro UAV, x4 152mm Kornet 9M113-1 ATGM Dismountable]

x1 Heavy Mortar Btry
x8 2S31 Vena Mortars - 32 Personnel [x4 Sections of 2 - x8 120mm 2S31 Mortars]

x1 Weapons CO

Heavy Weapon Plt
x8 MT-LB6MA3 Tracked Weapons Platforms - 24 Personnel [x4 Squads of 2 - x8 152mm 9M113F-3 Kornet ATGM, x8 30mm AGS-30 GL, x8 7.62mm PKTM MG]

Antitank Plt
x12 9P162 Anti-Tank Missile Carriers - 24 Personnel [x6 Teams of 2 - x12 152mm 9M113M-2 Kornet ATGM]

Medium Mortar Plt
x6 2K32 Mortars Carriers - 36 Personnel [x6 Sections of 6 - x6 82mm 2B24 Mortar, x6 7.62mm PKTM MG]

Sniper Plt
x6 GAZ-233114 4x4 - 12 Personnel [x3 Teams of 2 - x6 9.3mm SVDK / 12.7mm OSV-96 / 7.62mm SV-98 Sniper Rifle]

Assault Pioneer Plt
x4 GAZ-233114 4x4 - 12 Personnel [x3 Squads of 4 - RDX/Semtex Explosives, RPO-A,Z,D & RShG-2 Rocket Launchers, Anti-Tank/Anti-Personnel Mines]

Air Def Plt
x9 MT-LB6MB5 - 45 Personnel [x3 Squads of 3 - x9 GSh-30K 30mm, x27 9K333 Verba MANPADS]

[Additional Units: UAS Plt, Fire Control Plt, NBC Defence Plt, Medical Plt, Combat Services Plt, Motor Transport Sec & Signals Plt]
Command Element: Bn HQ CO]
207 All Ranks
87 Support Vehicles

[There are 4 Mech Inf CO, 1 Heavy Mortar Btry, 1 Recon Plt, 1 Weapons CO plus 1 HQ CO per Bn. Total per Bn = 60 IFV, 8 Reece, 8 Heavy Weapons Platforms, 12 ATGM Carriers, 14 Mortars, 480 Infantry and 308 Crew plus 97 Support Vehicles and 207 Personnel]

[Grater Tovakia]

Seeing as this is battalion had BMPs, the Soviets generally had something like 45 BMPs for each BMP battalion. Also in terms of the soldiers, there was probably a total of around 400 soldiers. This is the USSR though so you may have smaller forces. Plus one must take into account your mission, what exactly are you looking for out of these? What is the primary concern of your military?

[The Akasha Colony]

data-link

what

[Kassaran]

Hmm, as I see it (and I'm probably wrong here, but bear with me on it), tanks are broken up into three generations based on what major new 'stat' they became able to use in the battlefield.

Gen 1 tanks saw an increased in survivability to high, while mobility went from static to slow. Firepower was also generally low to medium depending on the manufacturer, but in all, the Generation 1 tanks all focused on high-survivability in a highly hostile battlefield.

Gen 2 tanks saw an increase variety and mission roles, so they perhaps can be seen as the point everyone began to experiment with the idea as they finally were adopted into military doctrine. Doctrines focused on generally enhancing the survivability of the tank by augmenting one of it's other 'stats' or attributes by my reasoning. Again, perhaps flawed, but tanks adopted various different doctrines, from safety/security in numbers, to mission-essential firepower and maneuverability, to simply receiving bigger guns and armor. The end result came up with determining that highly specialized tanks work well for their roles, but that isn't exactly what supports the infantry the best over time in a combat zone.

Gen 3 tanks saw the development of the overall jack-of-all-trades tanks, or the Main Battle Tank. As technology caught up with the ideas, tanks finally adopted every single base attribute in higher regard, from firepower to armor to mobility. The pinnacles of tank design came in the shape of the MBT's fielded by the US Army imho, the Abrams, which thanks to an industrial backing, became not only mass-produced, but also highly efficient with the correct support in tow. Gen 3 tanks really only suffer from vulnerability to pop-up attacks and ambushes nowadays. If a tank becomes isolated from its formation, it can easily be picked off by lighter vehicles or combat elements.

I believe a Gen 4 tank will need to stand out by including the final aspect of the modern battlefield into its essential attributes, incredibly high situational awareness and communications capability. What I mean by this is in agreement with the idea of datalink usage, remote operability of various weapon systems in support of infantry on the ground, and most importantly the ability of the tank to interface with other weapons-systems in the battle-space, from directing inbound ATGM's from nearby support aircraft, to lasing targets in the recon/scouting role. Tanks serve as excellent means of surviving extremely hostile conditions while also being able to back up their main mission with an extreme tenacity that ideally makes most foes think twice about engaging.

Chances are, the Gen 4 tank of the future probably won't behave as most tanks do in supplementing the direct-fire role, but rather will turn to being an area support role by guiding more advanced weapons onto target, supplementing the need for a highly survivable vehicle with state-of-the-art electronic countermeasures and hard-kill countermeasures. Additional focus on increased stealth and probable dropping of the usage of high-caliber weapons altogether in favor for a more responsive and more easily hidden weapon system.

That's just my amateur speculation though and I probably have little to no idea what I'm talking about here.

tl;dr I think 4th Gen tanks are going to get smarter rather than get more swole, dropping the trend of simply strapping on more armor and bigger guns for better support systems for infantry in combat and defensive countermeasures that will include fundamental focuses on increased stealth and energy production for a host of electronic weapons and countermeasures hidden inside.

[Greater Kazar]

Can I ask, does this seem realistic Mech Infantry Battalion for a wealthy and militaristic MT Russian-style nation?

x1 Mech Inf Bn which contain:
[Example of a Mech Inf CO]

x3 Mech Inf Plt
x5 BMP-3M IFVs - 50 Personnel

Total: 15 IFVs & 150 Personnel

Example of Plt Composition

[x3 Squads composed of 10 - x1 Squad Leader - AK-74M, x2 Team Leaders - AK-74M w/GP-34, x3 Riflemen - AK-74M + RPG-26, x1 Squad Automatic - RPK-74M [LMG], x3 Crew (Driver/Mechanic, Gunner, Commander - AKS-74U)]
[x1 Weapons Squad of 10 - x1 Squad Leader - AK-74M, x1 Anti-Armour - AK-74M + RPG-7V2 [RPG], x1 Riflemen - AK-74M + PG-7VR rounds, x1 Mortar - M6C-640T + AK-74M, x1 Mortar Assistant - AK-74M + M6 rounds, x1 Gunner - PKM [GPMG], x1 Gunners Assistants - AK-74M, x3 Crew (Driver/Mechanic, Gunner, Commander - AKS-74U)]

[x1 Plt HQ of 10 - x1 Plt Leader - AK-74M, x1 Plt Sergeant - AK-74M w/ GP-34, x1 Medic - AK-74M, x1 Radioman - AK-74M, x1 Grenadier - RG-6 + MP-443, x2 Marksmen - SVD-63M, x3 Crew (Driver/Mechanic, Gunner, Commander - AKS-74U)]

In each Plt , x2 BMP-3M will carry x1 RPG-29 RPG each plus x2 PG-29V rounds. x2 BMP-3M will carry x1 9K333 Verba MANPADs plus x4 9M336 rounds and x1 BMP-3M will carry a AGS-30 GL Dismounted

x1 Reconnaissance Plt
x8 BRM-3K Recce Vehicles - 48 Personnel [x4 Squads of 2 - x4 ZALA 421-12 Micro UAV, x4 152mm Kornet 9M113-1 ATGM Dismountable]

x1 Heavy Mortar Btry
x8 2S31 Vena Mortars - 32 Personnel [x4 Sections of 2 - x8 120mm 2S31 Mortars]

x1 Weapons CO

Heavy Weapon Plt
x8 MT-LB6MA3 Tracked Weapons Platforms - 24 Personnel [x4 Squads of 2 - x8 152mm 9M113F-3 Kornet ATGM, x8 30mm AGS-30 GL, x8 7.62mm PKTM MG]

Antitank Plt
x12 9P162 Anti-Tank Missile Carriers - 24 Personnel [x6 Teams of 2 - x12 152mm 9M113M-2 Kornet ATGM]

Medium Mortar Plt
x6 2K32 Mortars Carriers - 36 Personnel [x6 Sections of 6 - x6 82mm 2B24 Mortar, x6 7.62mm PKTM MG]

Sniper Plt
x6 GAZ-233114 4x4 - 12 Personnel [x3 Teams of 2 - x6 9.3mm SVDK / 12.7mm OSV-96 / 7.62mm SV-98 Sniper Rifle]

Assault Pioneer Plt
x4 GAZ-233114 4x4 - 12 Personnel [x3 Squads of 4 - RDX/Semtex Explosives, RPO-A,Z,D & RShG-2 Rocket Launchers, Anti-Tank/Anti-Personnel Mines]

Air Def Plt
x9 MT-LB6MB5 - 45 Personnel [x3 Squads of 3 - x9 GSh-30K 30mm, x27 9K333 Verba MANPADS]

[Additional Units: UAS Plt, Fire Control Plt, NBC Defence Plt, Medical Plt, Combat Services Plt, Motor Transport Sec & Signals Plt]
Command Element: Bn HQ CO]
207 All Ranks
87 Support Vehicles

[There are 4 Mech Inf CO, 1 Heavy Mortar Btry, 1 Recon Plt, 1 Weapons CO plus 1 HQ CO per Bn. Total per Bn = 60 IFV, 8 Reece, 8 Heavy Weapons Platforms, 12 ATGM Carriers, 14 Mortars, 480 Infantry and 308 Crew plus 97 Support Vehicles and 207 Personnel]

1. Why both a heavy mortar battery and a medium mortar platoo?

2. Your engineers are not going to be able to fight alongside the battalion as long as they are running around in 4x4s and the majority of the rest of the battalion is in an AFV

[Roskian Federation]

data-link

what

the tank has data-link communication

[Hrstrovokia]

Seeing as this is battalion had BMPs, the Soviets generally had something like 45 BMPs for each BMP battalion. Also in terms of the soldiers, there was probably a total of around 400 soldiers. This is the USSR though so you may have smaller forces. Plus one must take into account your mission, what exactly are you looking for out of these? What is the primary concern of your military?

I've based a lot of the layout on modern Russia's military, especially in the wake of the New Look reforms. The primary concern of this Mech Inf battalion, as part of a Mech Inf Division or Tank Division, is to deter enemy aggression, so being stationed on or near a border or strategic route, and if necessary, to rollback enemy aggressors into their own territory. There is a focus on modern anti-tank and anti-aircraft weaponry too for the battalion to battle modern forces with the latest MBTs and Helo's.

1. Why both a heavy mortar battery and a medium mortar platoo?

2. Your engineers are not going to be able to fight alongside the battalion as long as they are running around in 4x4s and the majority of the rest of the battalion is in an AFV

1. The idea there being that the medium mortar platoon can dismount with the 82mm, whereas the 120mm is wheeled. It's got better and more powerful ordnance but I wanted the option of something that could support on foot in very built-up areas, forests or mountains.

2. Yeah that's a good point and I should probably look at equipping Engineer and Sniper platoons with something like a BRDM-2 or equivalent.