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NS Military Realism Consultation Thread Vol. 11.0

A place to put national factbooks, embassy exchanges, and other information regarding the nations of the world. [In character]

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The Manticoran Empire
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Postby The Manticoran Empire » Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:06 pm

I know that the general opinion around here is that Combat Reform is full of shit but does this article have any merit to it at all?
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Purpelia
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Postby Purpelia » Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:06 pm

Gallia- wrote:How vertically and horizontally integrated are various NS MICs?


Ever since the 1870's or so (not sure on the timeline yet, but it's post 1870 and pre 1890) Purpelia has had what is essentially an arsenal system but not really. Basically, each duchy is obliged by the constitution to maintain one government lead arsenal that handles R&D and acts as a proofhouse as well as handling all acquisitions of everything from field guns to bullets within that duchy. The basic idea is that when the military places an order for something that order will be divided up among the duchies based on capacity and making sure everyone gets a piece of the pie.

But as for actual manufacturing that's where we get into a pickle because it's all state owned privately. That is to say it's all private businesses that happen to be owned by the ducal families that also own the duchies. And when they outsource, which some do and some don't those business often happen to be owned by the dukes or their families also.

So like, on one hand you do have complexes like Windir Heavy Industries that literally do own everything from the mine to the assembly line. But even in other duchies where that is less pronounced it's usually the same board of directors sitting in for all subsidiaries. So it's like not one company but it might as well be.

Purpelia is like that really. The dukes are the largest most rich capitalists that own half the industry. Their families tend to own the rest.
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The Manticoran Empire
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Postby The Manticoran Empire » Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:31 pm

Gallia- wrote:How vertically and horizontally integrated are various NS MICs?

What do you mean by that.
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Taihei Tengoku
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Postby Taihei Tengoku » Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:32 pm

The Manticoran Empire wrote:
Gallia- wrote:How vertically and horizontally integrated are various NS MICs?

What do you mean by that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertical_integration
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horizontal_integration
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Austrasien
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Postby Austrasien » Sat Mar 17, 2018 4:40 pm

The Manticoran Empire wrote:I know that the general opinion around here is that Combat Reform is full of shit but does this article have any merit to it at all?


The IDF has a tank trailer for the Merkava. Though it is more a special purpose device for particularly risky resupply missions than a general purpose thing.

The big issue with that article is it mostly uses articulated tracked vehicles as examples. These are not the same as conventional trailers because the "trailer" is powered and steered and is not really a trailer at all. It also sidesteps that a tracked supply carrier is not automatically a well-protected supply carrier. And that an armoured tracked supply carrier will consume almost as much fuel and spares as an actual armoured vehicle.
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The Manticoran Empire
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Postby The Manticoran Empire » Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:31 am

Austrasien wrote:
The Manticoran Empire wrote:I know that the general opinion around here is that Combat Reform is full of shit but does this article have any merit to it at all?


The IDF has a tank trailer for the Merkava. Though it is more a special purpose device for particularly risky resupply missions than a general purpose thing.

The big issue with that article is it mostly uses articulated tracked vehicles as examples. These are not the same as conventional trailers because the "trailer" is powered and steered and is not really a trailer at all. It also sidesteps that a tracked supply carrier is not automatically a well-protected supply carrier. And that an armoured tracked supply carrier will consume almost as much fuel and spares as an actual armoured vehicle.

Interesting. Could a general purpose supply trailer be effective in the way they seem to think it would be?
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Gallia-
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Postby Gallia- » Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:49 am



The real question is "why are vertically integrated mercenary armies unprofitable," TBH. Like either EO was really sorta lame/not at all an Anime IRL tier, or EO was super high speed like the guys in Blood Diamond with tanku-chans galore. What if you had a converted Algol as a base of operations for your mercenary EO army that sails the seven seas and has like a platoon of tanks and mechanized infantry and a pair of helicopters and 200-500 dudes who live inside the boat? Viky will pooh-pooh the idea in 3...

There is an actual anime about this it's just about those guys sadly.

Basically I'm just thinking "if rent-a-cops can have SUVs and Bo-105s, why not tankus," though.
Last edited by Gallia- on Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Austrasien
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Postby Austrasien » Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:07 pm

:mad:

The financials would be positively ghastly.
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Gallia-
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Postby Gallia- » Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:26 pm

But then did EO ever really turn a profit?

It lasted 9 years so it must have done something right. If it was just a "bandolier of old guys" then how did they learn how to fly things like Su-25 and drive/maintain BMPs and T-72s when South African ever operated these?
Last edited by Gallia- on Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Austrasien
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Postby Austrasien » Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:36 pm

Gallia- wrote:But then did EO ever really turn a profit?

It lasted 9 years so it must have done something right.


One of the advantages of running a shady international outfit is nobody but you ever really know your real financial position.
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Gallia-
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Postby Gallia- » Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:48 pm

but what if they were honest to a fault and didnt accept patronage from money mogul billionaires o:

because that sounds an awful lot like an ordinary army ;~;
Last edited by Gallia- on Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Taihei Tengoku
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Postby Taihei Tengoku » Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:26 pm

Gallia- wrote:There is an actual anime about this it's just about those guys sadly.

Metal Gear Solid?
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Zhouran
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Postby Zhouran » Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:27 pm



So, is it actually illegal to send PMCs to war-torn nations for not-shady reasons *cough* supporting rebels n shieet, or will the UN as usual send a letter of condemnation towards my nation for "unlawful use of mercenaries"? Gotta need PMCs to do the dirty works a military won't do.
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Gallia-
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Postby Gallia- » Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:28 pm

Taihei Tengoku wrote:
Gallia- wrote:There is an actual anime about this it's just about those guys sadly.

Metal Gear Solid?


Black Lagoon.

That should say "just not about those guys".
Last edited by Gallia- on Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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The Corparation
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Postby The Corparation » Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:30 pm

Gallia- wrote:
Taihei Tengoku wrote:Metal Gear Solid?


Black Lagoon.

That should say "just not about those guys".

Jormungand is closer to what you describe. A crew traveling the world in a container ship although they're more about selling weapons than using them. (And the second season about the magic of quantam computers) The folks in Black Lagoon are mostly just well armed couriers with a PT boat.
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Gallia-
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Postby Gallia- » Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:32 pm

The Corparation wrote:The folks in Black Lagoon are mostly just well armed couriers with a PT boat.


The helicopter isn't...

The mercenaries had a cargo ship with a SCADS-esque hangar and everything.

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The Corparation
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Postby The Corparation » Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:36 pm

Gallia- wrote:
The Corparation wrote:The folks in Black Lagoon are mostly just well armed couriers with a PT boat.


The helicopter isn't...

The mercenaries had a cargo ship with a SCADS-esque hangar and everything.

Yeah but Black Lagoon isn't about the dudes with the Helicopter. The big players in the series are all organized crime rings that operate in the region (albeit heavily armed ones) rather than mercs that travel the world.
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Gallia-
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Postby Gallia- » Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:37 pm

The Corparation wrote:but Black Lagoon isn't about the dudes with the Helicopter.


Myself wrote:That should say "just not about those guys".
Last edited by Gallia- on Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Iltica
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Postby Iltica » Sun Mar 18, 2018 4:38 pm

Really old, worn out military equipment can be surprisingly cheap. Iirc someone was selling a M48 or 60 for 200,000 usd on eBay motors or some such a few years ago.
Doubt it was in working order but neither are most other things on there...
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North Arkana
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Postby North Arkana » Sun Mar 18, 2018 4:43 pm

Iltica wrote:Really old, worn out military equipment can be surprisingly cheap. Iirc someone was selling a M48 or 60 for 200,000 usd on eBay motors or some such a few years ago.
Doubt it was in working order but neither are most other things on there...

By that point you might just be buying a steel hull rusting from the inside out or vice versa.
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Prosorusiya
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Postby Prosorusiya » Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:13 pm

Jorgamund... *shudder*

{the following is my opinion}
Now there was a crap anime. Don't get me wrong, I like weapons porn... but only if there is a better story beyond that. And Jorgamund failed in droves to deliver. It really can't make a gal who "rescues" a child soldier (and then continues to use him to fight) out to be a protagonist, and it can't really succeed at either being light-hearted gun porn nor a deeper look at the costs of war and conflict. I won't say it's the worst I've ever watched , but it is definitely in my bottom ten.
{/opinion over}

Well, at least it ain't Robotech.
Last edited by Prosorusiya on Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Theodosiya
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Postby Theodosiya » Sun Mar 18, 2018 7:13 pm

Heh... Anime lovers...

State Military Contractor? As in, state owned PMC. Hey, that gives me an idea. What if the Presidential Guard also function as PMC. Or the National Guard? Any thoughts? Separate from the Armed Force, obviously.


I'll think about the MIC. The general thing is, the state did have nearly 100% capability to produce equipment from scratch. But so do one or two privately owned corporation. They do cooperate with the state owned ones and occasionally sell stuffs to the state. Then there's the myriad state and private corporation (from family owned and minor gunsmiths to factories that could churn AKM/AK-74M/M16A3-4/HK416/whatever, for example)that specializes in different field.
Last edited by Theodosiya on Sun Mar 18, 2018 7:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The Akasha Colony
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Postby The Akasha Colony » Sun Mar 18, 2018 7:31 pm

Zhouran wrote:


So, is it actually illegal to send PMCs to war-torn nations for not-shady reasons *cough* supporting rebels n shieet, or will the UN as usual send a letter of condemnation towards my nation for "unlawful use of mercenaries"? Gotta need PMCs to do the dirty works a military won't do.


No one really would. Because despite what you see in anime and Call of Duty, IRL PMCs just provide boring services like laundry and cooking and at best basic rent-a-cop protection for people who don't rank high enough for a DSS escort. They don't actually run around and fight wars on their own for cash. No PMC actually has the ability to go in independently into a foreign country to conduct operations. PMCs exist largely to fill in support services that militaries have increasingly outsourced in order to preserve precious manpower for more vital combat functions which are harder to outsource.

Theodosiya wrote:Heh... Anime lovers...

State Military Contractor? As in, state owned PMC. Hey, that gives me an idea. What if the Presidential Guard also function as PMC. Or the National Guard? Any thoughts? Separate from the Armed Force, obviously.


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Theodosiya
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Postby Theodosiya » Sun Mar 18, 2018 7:58 pm

Why not? Using PMC, one could officially lend help, without formal DOW, because technically, they're PMC, not soldiers.
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