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NS Military Realism Consultation Thread Vol. 11.0

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The Technocratic Syndicalists
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Postby The Technocratic Syndicalists » Wed Mar 14, 2018 4:45 pm

Kampala- wrote:No lasers. No orbital doom grids. No station keeping.

It's truck mobile and it intercepts one HGV a rocket for places that are at the edge of the fixed-site defense bubbles. It's a small intercept vehicle with a alumina or synthetic diamond IR window that attacks HGVs at "reasonable" (IDK what this is) distance and is lofted by a Midgetman on launch-on-warning by a stacked TPY-2 or something.

How much delta-v is THAAD-ER supposed to have? The GBI thing was supposed to be 15 km/s or something like that but I'm not sure what entails, and it's double GBI's current delta-v AFAIK?

I don't know a lot about HGVs except old things like Lockheed AXE so I'm not sure what modern vehicles would be capable of, but I want to have a better than even chance of killing one. It doens't have to be The Best or whatever since Galla is fielding a fairly immature weapon against a fairly hypothetical threat (the interceptor HGV presumably exists in the oughties or maybe even late 90s) but it has to be something I guess.

Is it best if I give you an idea of the threat Galla is facing (or rather, thinks it's facing)? It's not fighting the actual USSR (this is really a lie, since Cyber Mongolians have ICBMs, but whatever) but more like Mega!Mitterrand. If Mitterrand were a diehard fascist.


The stats I used for my HGV are a CAV-H vehicle launched from a modified two-stage Trident-II type SLBM. Suborbital burnout would be at around 7-8 km/s at 200 kft altitude, a 3.0 L/D ratio would give a downrange travel of 10,000 plus kms with a 3,000 km crossrange capability.

GBI is about 8.3 km/s burnout with the new kill vehicle. 15 km/s would be over twice orbital speed and definitely not feasible. THAAD is 2.8 km/s so we can assume say 5.6 km/s for THAAD-ER, about the same as HEDI (mach 15-17 burnout IIRC). with the HGV entering its terminal dive at about 30 km /100 kft (ie the lowest point of its glide trajectory) and assuming a HEDI type interceptor your intercept range would be maybe 20-50 km.

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Kampala-
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Postby Kampala- » Wed Mar 14, 2018 4:50 pm

What is Midgetman with a Mk. 21? I'm assuming 7-8 km/s since it's an ICBM, so more or less identical to Trident II and Peacekeeper-kun.

So what could he do given a kill vehicle of similar weight to the W88 and Mark 21 RV? Say 200-300 kg of maneuvering KKV?

80 km? 100 km? I don't want HEDI since Galla already has THAAD/THAAD-ER chilling as the middle range of the absolute terminal system which is PAC-3 and the long arm of the MIdgetman-derived ABM.

Anyway 10-25 nmi is barely self defense range. So pretty much garbage. C'est la "HGV" I guess?

e: And yes I know 15 km/s is that fast but I can't find the post where I read it so I can't corroborate it. Which is why I qualified it. I've looked for it but I might have literally dreamed reading a post by sferrin or Marauder2<whatever> on SP tbh. This past week has been sorta blurry. :v
Last edited by Kampala- on Wed Mar 14, 2018 5:00 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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The Technocratic Syndicalists
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Postby The Technocratic Syndicalists » Wed Mar 14, 2018 5:15 pm

You could make the kill vehicle an HGV. Say some type of high L/D hypersonic waverider with a MMV radar or cooled IR seeker. Assuming you pick the incoming HGV up from at least a thousand kms out with PAVE PAWS then you would have a couple minutes reaction time to launch your own HGV on a boost-glide trajectory at the oncoming HGV. This would allow intercept at at least an order magnitude more range than the 10-25 nmi so of a HEDI type terminal interceptor.

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Kampala-
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Postby Kampala- » Wed Mar 14, 2018 5:18 pm

I mean yeah that's what i was going to do but I want to slap a big HGV KKV on the nose of a MIdgetman and shoot it at commies or something.

Also I'm drunk as right now so like any time "Kampala-" posts just assume it's "oh Kat is drunk".

I want to kill HGVs before they explode the PAVE PAWS and TPY-2s and Safeguard pyramids that tell the other flying penises what to shoot.

So yeah cool I can live with 100-250 nmi. It's not /great/ but it's fine for a first gen interceptor system.

e: Bro ty for this btw I'll draw you a cute animal later. Ur my fav retrotechnical revisionist. :3
Last edited by Kampala- on Wed Mar 14, 2018 5:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Sudbrazil » Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:39 pm

I've stumbled over the Webley Automatic revolver, and it made me wonder: could a .44 Magnum automatic revolver be produced and used practically in police or paramilitary forces?
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Postby Connori Pilgrims » Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:46 pm

Multiversal Venn-Copard wrote:Here's a hypothetical for a thing I'm writing, unrelated to NS or anything. Please forgive me here for anything stupid; realism is essentially the opposite of my warfare familiarity.

In a near-future environment (say, 2030s or so), how would you go about attacking a navy whose specialty is in obscene levels of missile defense? Say, they've got anti-missile lasers equipped on all of their ships, detection way past the horizon, and enough missile countermeasures and CIWS to blow apart anything that gets within fifty kilometers or more. Their doctrine is to stop missiles, because they figure that all the other world navies are too heavily reliant on them, or something, and they want to go back to the good old days of cannons and such instead.

Could torpedoes work to counter this? Are long-range torpedo attacks expected to be a viable option in the near future, and would submarines be more suitable for the role, or might aircraft still have a niche there? Or would there be a better alternative? I at least assume a navy wouldn't need to start pulling out the railguns or trying to build battleships or anything at this point, right?


Nuclear-armed torpedoes as mentioned by Purp.

Nuclear-tipped cruise missiles in a first wave set to air burst to blind/kill sensors. Followed up by regular antiship missiles.

For a non-nuclear power, better electronic warfare to disrupt/jam/crack defences.

All anti-missile defence is not fullproof, and for the foreseeable future will still be dependent on Radar for long range detection. So by degrading the detection windows by electronic warfare (jamming, spoofing and perhaps even cracking/hacking although not in the way video games usually depict), you give the enemy less time for their defenses to act.

Hypersonic weapons are also an option. By 2030s, even at the most optimistic, a laser CIWS that blows up a hypersonic missile will not stop hypersonic debris from impacting.
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Kampala-
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Postby Kampala- » Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:09 pm

fuking jesus christ atommic wepaons are aonly for hard targets or widely dispersed ones that are soft and squishy

hard and idspersed or dispersed and hard are the worst target set for atomics jessus fuckingchrist


a handful of normal TORPEX WW2 mines would ass rape a aegis battlegroup lmao
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Postby Crookfur » Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:34 am

Sudbrazil wrote:I've stumbled over the Webley Automatic revolver, and it made me wonder: could a .44 Magnum automatic revolver be produced and used practically in police or paramilitary forces?

Could such a thing be produced? Of course and it was: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mateba_Autorevolver

Would such a thing ever be a practical sidearm? Nope not a chance, too big, too heavy and far too little capacity compared to just about every 9mm or .45 pistol option.
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Postby Gallia- » Thu Mar 15, 2018 4:54 am

I'm still not sober and I remember it all lmao.

Crookfur wrote:
Sudbrazil wrote:I've stumbled over the Webley Automatic revolver, and it made me wonder: could a .44 Magnum automatic revolver be produced and used practically in police or paramilitary forces?

Could such a thing be produced? Of course and it was: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mateba_Autorevolver

Would such a thing ever be a practical sidearm? Nope not a chance, too big, too heavy and far too little capacity compared to just about every 9mm or .45 pistol option.


VBR-PDW.

It's like the poor man's SCAMP.
Last edited by Gallia- on Thu Mar 15, 2018 4:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Multiversal Venn-Copard
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Postby Multiversal Venn-Copard » Thu Mar 15, 2018 6:22 am

Thanks for the comments, everyone. I guess I have a lot of reading to do on all these options, but in any case, it's much appreciated.

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The Technocratic Syndicalists
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Postby The Technocratic Syndicalists » Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:42 am

TBH while strategic boost-glide weapons (ie orbital reentry speeds with global glide range) could in theory be made almost impervious to ground based interceptors the technology to make them work (specifically a passive TPS system which can handle >2000 or more seconds of hypersonic heating) is remote enough that they won't really be a threat in any kind of hard MT setting.

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Postby Austrasien » Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:57 am

The Technocratic Syndicalists wrote:TBH while strategic boost-glide weapons (ie orbital reentry speeds with global glide range) could in theory be made almost impervious to ground based interceptors the technology to make them work (specifically a passive TPS system which can handle >2000 or more seconds of hypersonic heating) is remote enough that they won't really be a threat in any kind of hard MT setting.


The metallic TPS developed in the 60s work. But it is probably unreasonably expensive for an expendable conventional weapon. The US is working on all-carbon TPS probably in the hope it will be more affordable in the long run by eliminating the need for very exotic metals. The balance between the cost of the TPS and the glide duration/range needed for the mission is probably one of the main cost tradeoffs in HGV design.
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Gallia-
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Postby Gallia- » Thu Mar 15, 2018 11:39 am

The Technocratic Syndicalists wrote:TBH while strategic boost-glide weapons (ie orbital reentry speeds with global glide range) could in theory be made almost impervious to ground based interceptors the technology to make them work (specifically a passive TPS system which can handle >2000 or more seconds of hypersonic heating) is remote enough that they won't really be a threat in any kind of hard MT setting.


ASSET and PRIME both worked fine?

Anyway it doesn't need to have "global glide range" whatever that is. Not even ICBMs have global range. They have range sufficient to hit a continent over the poles. Galla's HGV threat is probably an attempt to extend the life of a bunch of IRBMs as a strategic suppression system for killing Safeguard sites since those would be able to attack puny MIRVs and maybe even MaRVs with their muscular 30 kilopound interceptors. Probably a Midgetman-based interceptor to replace the Spartans.

Its glide range would be a few thousands of km. Probably less than 10,000, but adequate to noodle around interceptor sites and make killing them annoying. Ballistic range would be much shorter. Something like 3-5,000 km maybe.

Frisia is a weak country after all and has probably the fewest numbers of warheads of all the Bigges in Gallaverse. ):

Austrasien wrote:The US is working on all-carbon TPS


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sferrin's "Must be nice. :sademoji:" re: WU-14's half dozenth test is one of the most "uwu" things i have ever seen also
Last edited by Gallia- on Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:49 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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Albynau
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Postby Albynau » Fri Mar 16, 2018 4:06 pm

Why was the SKS produced in substantial amounts even after the adoption of the AK in certain countries? Is there something that the SKS does better than the AK?

I would wager it had something to do with cost, however I would imagine a stamped AK would be cheaper to produce than a milled SKS

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Taihei Tengoku
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Postby Taihei Tengoku » Fri Mar 16, 2018 4:08 pm

Russians like to produce a lot of things even after they're replaced.
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Postby North Arkana » Fri Mar 16, 2018 4:16 pm

Albynau wrote:Why was the SKS produced in substantial amounts even after the adoption of the AK in certain countries? Is there something that the SKS does better than the AK?

I would wager it had something to do with cost, however I would imagine a stamped AK would be cheaper to produce than a milled SKS

They also probably needed something to export to client states who were less reliable than the ones getting AKs.
Last edited by North Arkana on Fri Mar 16, 2018 4:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Albynau
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Postby Albynau » Fri Mar 16, 2018 4:26 pm

From what I can tell in Yugoslavia and China SKS production continued way past when they adopted AKs, into the 80s for Yugoslavia and I don't even know if they stopped for China though

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Postby North Arkana » Fri Mar 16, 2018 4:39 pm

Albynau wrote:From what I can tell in Yugoslavia and China SKS production continued way past when they adopted AKs, into the 80s for Yugoslavia and I don't even know if they stopped for China though

When in doubt, Norinco probably still makes it in some shape or form.
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Postby Gallia- » Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:44 pm

How vertically and horizontally integrated are various NS MICs?

I'm still working out Galla's MIC so I'm not sure how integrated it is yet. The answer is probably "a lot" since it would have the ability to produce enough ammunition to manage peacetime demands and some R&D and production of advanced systems like high powered radars, since there isn't a terrible demand for fighter-bomber fire control radars or high powered artillery guns in the civilian economy. H/e it would leverage turbine development in the civilian economy re: airliners and helicopters (or more likely, maritime use) for military use by contracting R&D and production to private factories. There are other things it could leverage too, but Galla doesn't have a strong sporting firearms, airline industry, or ore mining industry, so most of these hobble along at the pace of military procurement cycles I guess.

Most of its ability to produce powerful turbine engines for tactical vehicles and helicopters probably comes in-house from the military (along with Special Armor and long-range artillery) while the Navy is able to leverage the developments of Galla's shipbuilders in the merchant construction industry and whatever to build powerful naval ships powered by BIG turbines and muscular diesels like LM2500. The atomic power program for Galla is completely military, even for the civil economy, and probably under the aegis of a national level atomic energy bureau.

Galla may or may not have a reasonable primary sector industry but since it's an island I think it's mostly like Japan, where it has powerful finished and intermediate goods industries, but weak primary sector industry, and so it probably imports a lot/all of its tantalum and other strategic materials from friendly countries.
Last edited by Gallia- on Fri Mar 16, 2018 11:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby The Akasha Colony » Sat Mar 17, 2018 6:45 am

Gallia- wrote:How vertically and horizontally integrated are various NS MICs?


Since the 1980s, it has been the policy of the Carthaginian government to limit further horizontal integration of major defense contractors in key sectors, such as the aircraft, turbine, armored fighting vehicle, and defense electronics sectors, although it has been more lenient in regards to vertical integration. It has been particularly keen on preventing the number of firms in any of these sectors from decreasing below a minimum of three major "full service" competitors. The general policy of the government is wary of the creation of monopolies or oligopolies since the end of the zaibatsu era and even wholly civilian sector firms usually face significant scrutiny if the government suspects a potential merger or acquisition may noticeably impact consumer choice. This is particularly true of certain key sectors like airlines and mobile telecommunications.

In some sectors where there is not enough work to support the minimum of three firms, design and development work is done in-house and only the production contracts are released for bidding. This also includes areas with less immediate civilian applicability, such as large caliber ballistics, armor, advanced radar, naval nuclear plants, and of course, nuclear weapons. Although in the case of the latter, production is done in-house as well. In many cases, defense research labs will work with private sector companies in developing dual-use technologies, usually in more exotic basic proof-of-concept research like modern turbocompound engines that are not of as much civilian interest in order to keep both the private sector and defense labs engaged.

The nuclear industrial base is split between the civilian and defense sector. The civilian sector is overseen by civilian nuclear regulatory and environmental agencies but actual construction and operation of the reactors is done by both private sector and government corporations. The majority of Carthage's civilian nuclear plants are operated by the state-owned Carthage Nuclear Energy Corporation, which sells wholesale electricity to local and regional utilities, and also operates and manages a number of other plants for local utilities under contract. The rest of the plants are owned by private entities, usually local or regional utilities (most utilities in Carthage are owned by municipalities or territories). A separate nuclear program exists for defense purposes, geared toward the production of weapons-grade fissile material, the refurbishment and remanufacturing of nuclear warheads, and the design and development of special-purpose reactors. While the civilian industry largely abandoned major research into economical FBRs, the defense industry continues research in this field. There is some overlap between the defense and civilian sectors largely in terms of waste processing and fuel recycling. Carthage has a closed nuclear fuel cycle and both military and civilian waste is processed in the same facilities, usually for consumption at civilian MOX reactors (many of CNEC's reactors are MOX-rated).
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Postby New Castillan Empire » Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:15 am

Hey, Nueva Castille, back with more justifying of pike-and-shot for FT.

I've figured out some roles for other elements of the pike-and-shot, or such classes of soldiers existing during the era.

With the cavalry and vehicles with pike-and-shot, I'll probably be going for a rather direct combat role. In battle, they can assist charges and guard flanks, and they can scout outside of battle or before.

The flag bearer of each formation has a forcefield generator, so each soldier is not only surrounded by a big bubble shield, but has his own energy shield AND strong armor.

Battle musicians can carry communications/detection equipment to make themselves useful in general. Fifers or guitarists can have remote teleporters so that if they play a certain tune, ships can be called to beam them up whenever necessary if a quick retreat is needed, and drummers in real life could relay commands with their drums, so perhaps drummers carry an uplink/comm device for relaying orders by playing the drums.

Grenadiers could perhaps be armed with grenade launchers (duh) or just take on a general explosives role. Plus, grenadiers were basically heavy troopers, so they would be good for experimental newer armors. Crossbowmen and archers also would play a role as light infantry, or in a role historically used in formations of the era alongside muskets. Maybe I'd even bring in special forces like man-at-arms knights or something akin to Swiss mercenaries.
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Postby Austrasien » Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:42 am

Austrasia uses a hub-and-spokes model for most defence products. For each critical defence industrial capability (armoured vehicles, small arms, artillery, radio etc) there is a hub, a state-owned enterprise governed by a board of directors considered experts in the field, which interfaces with a variety of spokes: private and state companies which are contracted for various subsystems. Collectively each hub and its spokes are organized into semi-formal associations known as circles (Panzerkreis, Gewehrkreis etc). As a rule, the hub is responsible for the final integration of weapon as a system through the majority of the work may be done by the spokes. The purpose of the hub is twofold: To ensure that perishable skills/knowledge is not lost and to relieve the spokes of the cost and risk of developing complete new systems. The hub almost always leads when prototyping new weapon systems and funding long-range research while the spokes focus on continual improvement of the subsystems they specialize in.

This is not universal. Nuclear weapons research, development and production are entirely concentrated in two nominally competing state-owned enterprises. Microprocessors and coding, on the other hand, are almost entirely in the hands of the private industry because they were for a very long time seen only as subcomponents of weapon systems. There are circles of trusted coders and fabs but no hubs.
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Taihei Tengoku
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Postby Taihei Tengoku » Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:09 am

The Taihei MIC is concentrated within the remnants of the National System. The remaining conglomerates own multiple parts of the defense economy and generally occupy different niches within any industries they share. Tosa-Daihatsu is generally considered the "land systems" concern, Mizuho-Amagi the "aircraft" and "electronics" concern, and Kujo-Havel has a monopoly on Taihei shipbuilding, although each depends on subcomponents made by the others. A constellation of smaller firms in light industry produce minor products, usually procured off-the-shelf.

Four state arsenals at Hachinohe, Tenma, Kokura, and Wadomari develop and manufacture munitions (shells, bombs, missiles, etc) and small arms. Taihei Tengoku has no nuclear weapons but like most Maredoratic middle powers is a "latent" nuclear power. Most estimates place Taihei Tengoku as twelve months away from a fission bomb and twenty-four from a fusion weapon.

The Taihei defense industry is somewhat incomplete: though capable of producing technically impressive weapons it lacks the spare capacity to produce heavy weapons on a large scale and relies on licence manufacture and imports.
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Postby Zhouran » Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:32 am

Gallia- wrote:How vertically and horizontally integrated are various NS MICs?

Well, the Zhouranese MIC is essentially state-owned. Most military vehicles and defense equipment are created by Yongsheng (which basically has monopoly over the nation's defense, shipbuilding, and aerospace industries) while there are other smaller state-owned companies that produce different products for different areas, like Ningjing being responsible for firearms and Hongyan producing wheeled vehicles. Researching and designing a "product" is done in-house with each company, the only exceptions are nuclear warheads and anything considered "emerging technologies" with designing being done by a NotDARPA research agency instead.

Military equipment are not "sold" to the Zhouranese military, instead they are allocated to the military with the manufacturer supplying the equipment and munitions. When the military needs a certain product such as a new fighter jet, sniper rifle, APC, or warship, a manufacturer would begin research and designing based on a criteria and requirements, and once done they present the product to the military. For export, selling a product commercially to foreign buyers would be done by the manufacturer themselves, although they would need approval from a bureau that's responsible for overseeing the export of Zhouranese military equipment and weapons.
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