I have an idea. How about someone create a "Grand Social-Political-Economic Theories of Western Decline Thread" so this thread can actually be about Military Realism?
Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 12:24 pm
by Rich and Corporations
In 2500, ever increasing degradation of the biosphere and the emergence of hypercanes has left much of the world inhospitable for sedentry human life. The ozone layer has been destroyed.
The Rich and Corporations military now almost entirely operates through semi-autonomous drones, with a high friendly fire tolerance as there are few men on the front lines. If IFF or drone operator communications are lost, they would likely turn on each other, considered to be a benefit against the possibility of robot uprising.
Ten-man 100 tonne tanks are used for forward observation in this apocalyptic world.
Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 8:16 am
by Tule
Are volunteer militias like the Polish Territorial Defence Force and the Danish Home Guard useful to any degree or should I just go with a volunteer reserve?
Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 9:28 am
by The Manticoran Empire
Tule wrote:Are volunteer militias like the Polish Territorial Defence Force and the Danish Home Guard useful to any degree or should I just go with a volunteer reserve?
And secondly, can somebody tell me the utility of these pouch-type things I tend to see in images of Swedish AK4s? Are they for containing spent cartridges?
Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:12 pm
by Taihei Tengoku
The various settings are on a disc pinned in the rear sight housing. You spin the disc to get the setting you want. The thing on the Ak4 is a shell catcher, popular with Asian militiaries like Japan, Korea, and Finland
Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:25 pm
by Austrasien
Tule wrote:Are volunteer militias like the Polish Territorial Defence Force and the Danish Home Guard useful to any degree or should I just go with a volunteer reserve?
They can be. But it is never a sure thing.
It is very easy for a voluntary militia to rot away into uselessness. They are a chore to maintain and they impose a significant opportunity cost on their members. Without some kind of external discipline there is every incentive to succumb to inertia.
Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:27 pm
by Bastion Remnant
What should I do for a nation with a huge populace, large industrial complex, and a willing-to-fight country, what vehicles should I use?
Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:32 pm
by Austrasien
Bastion Remnant wrote:What should I do for a nation with a huge populace, large industrial complex, and a willing-to-fight country, what vehicles should I use?
Each squad has attached 3-man IFV crew who do not disembark from IFV with squad but instead provide added firepower from vehicle, they are not officially part of the squad In addition to their own equipment, each squad member carries 1 RPG round save the grenadier, who carries 2 respectively
Rough idea for a motor rifle squad. Suggestions?
Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 2:28 pm
by Albynau
Bastion Remnant wrote:What should I do for a nation with a huge populace, large industrial complex, and a willing-to-fight country, what vehicles should I use?
Quick and dirty way is to find a real life country counterpart to your own and copy what they do
Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:49 pm
by Schwere Panzer Abteilung 502
What's the stopping power of handguns compared to shotguns and assault rifles? I'm assuming shotguns have the edge in raw hitting power but how piss-poor are handguns?
Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:53 pm
by Taihei Tengoku
Schwere Panzer Abteilung 502 wrote:What's the stopping power of handguns compared to shotguns and assault rifles? I'm assuming shotguns have the edge in raw hitting power but how piss-poor are handguns?
Piss-poor enough to clear rooms
Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 5:19 pm
by Tule
Schwere Panzer Abteilung 502 wrote:What's the stopping power of handguns compared to shotguns and assault rifles? I'm assuming shotguns have the edge in raw hitting power but how piss-poor are handguns?
The lethality of pistol ammunition is perfectly adequate. A .45 FMJ will cause exactly as much injury to a human being as a .458 lott FMJ, and the latter is used on Elephants (Where I'm from they're used as backup weapons against Minke Whales.).
Rifle rounds will generally cause a bigger temporary cavity, which results in severe contusion surrounding the gunshot wound and may need wound debridement surgery to prevent infection. So rifle wounds are harder to treat and are more lethal in the long term. But what "stops" someone is rapid blood loss, which is determined by making a big hole in something that really shouldn't have one. For that purpose a deep penetrating 9mm JHP is a pretty good cartridge.
The problem with handguns is that they're inaccurate. It's far easier to place shots into the vital organs with a shoulder weapon than a handgun. In fact, most bullets fired by handguns in a gunfight do not even hit the opponent at all, the few that do usually strike something less lethal like the extremities.
Shotguns are in a league of their own however, there is no substitute for shooting a cloud of lead balls at someone's torso.
Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 5:33 pm
by Schwere Panzer Abteilung 502
The context of the question was a video that I unfortunately can't find the URL of. It was security footage of a store clerk pulling a handgun on a robber and probably hitting him five or six times; the robber kept going for a good 2-3 minutes before collapsing, though I'm pretty sure it said he was treated at a hospital and survived.
While I'm sure it's not impossible to be shot the same number of times by a rifle and keep going, I think it would probably be a lot less likely, especially if you're using full-power cartridges.
Is this a fluke? Again, sorry I can't find the link to the video, but the guy was definitely riddled with bullets and kept trucking while he was able to. I can't imagine that happening with most rifle rounds, and obviously not shotguns.
Schwere Panzer Abteilung 502 wrote:What's the stopping power of handguns compared to shotguns and assault rifles? I'm assuming shotguns have the edge in raw hitting power but how piss-poor are handguns?
The lethality of pistol ammunition is perfectly adequate. A .45 FMJ will cause exactly as much injury to a human being as a .458 lott FMJ, and the latter is used on Elephants (Where I'm from they're used as backup weapons against Minke Whales.).
I feel like there's a story here and I'm interested to know more about what I can only assume was a terrible and costly war with the Whales.
Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 6:03 pm
by Tule
Schwere Panzer Abteilung 502 wrote:The context of the question was a video that I unfortunately can't find the URL of. It was security footage of a store clerk pulling a handgun on a robber and probably hitting him five or six times; the robber kept going for a good 2-3 minutes before collapsing, though I'm pretty sure it said he was treated at a hospital and survived.
While I'm sure it's not impossible to be shot the same number of times by a rifle and keep going, I think it would probably be a lot less likely, especially if you're using full-power cartridges.
Is this a fluke? Again, sorry I can't find the link to the video, but the guy was definitely riddled with bullets and kept trucking while he was able to. I can't imagine that happening with most rifle rounds, and obviously not shotguns.
There are plenty of incidents of individual taking multiple rifle shots and remaining active. And generally it is the 5.56 that is the most deadly rifle round in common military use, because it tends to fragment more reliably and tumble sooner than full-sized rifle rounds.
In this particular video (which I recommend you take down before it gets reported) I can guarantee you that the robber did not sustain injuries to vital blood vessels, the brain or the heart. If he had he would have been on the floor before the video ended.
Hits kill, misses don't. That's 90% of stopping power. The most important factor apart from shot placement, by far, is penetration. Even a very big wound is unlikely to cause incapacitation unless the hole is deep enough to reach the heart/aorta/pulmonary arteries.
EDIT: BTW, for an interesting read, check out the 1986 Miami Shootout.
Tule wrote: The lethality of pistol ammunition is perfectly adequate. A .45 FMJ will cause exactly as much injury to a human being as a .458 lott FMJ, and the latter is used on Elephants (Where I'm from they're used as backup weapons against Minke Whales.).
I feel like there's a story here and I'm interested to know more about what I can only assume was a terrible and costly war with the Whales.
Yeah kinda. In the rare case a Whale survives getting harpooned, standard procedure is to reel the whale in/sail up to it and put a .458 through the skull. That's the legally required minimum (Whale skulls are stupidly thick).
Schwere Panzer Abteilung 502 wrote:What's the stopping power of handguns compared to shotguns and assault rifles? I'm assuming shotguns have the edge in raw hitting power but how piss-poor are handguns?
The lethality of pistol ammunition is perfectly adequate. A .45 FMJ will cause exactly as much injury to a
thicc winter coat
:dr. puz, la. d.:
The Corparation wrote:I feel like there's a story here
the storie is one time dr. puz, Lad. D., got shot between the nipples by a FORTY FIVE and his winter coat stopped it
or something
tl;dr 11,43mm sucks like a chainsaw and 5.7mm sucks like a thing that sucks really well :v
Tule wrote: The lethality of pistol ammunition is perfectly adequate. A .45 FMJ will cause exactly as much injury to a human being as a .458 lott FMJ, and the latter is used on Elephants (Where I'm from they're used as backup weapons against Minke Whales.).
I feel like there's a story here and I'm interested to know more about what I can only assume was a terrible and costly war with the Whales.
Whales are fairly hard to kill. They are large animals, that can weigh several tons and can travel at several knots.
The Corparation wrote:I feel like there's a story here and I'm interested to know more about what I can only assume was a terrible and costly war with the Whales.
Yeah kinda. In the rare case a Whale survives getting harpooned, standard procedure is to reel the whale in/sail up to it and put a .458 through the skull. That's the legally required minimum (Whale skulls are stupidly thick).
Can confirm. The boat that does the Bowhead whale harvest in the Hudson's Bay region came into the shipyard my father works at for emergency repairs two years ago while I was visiting. They kept a Boys rifle on board, it was pretty cool.
Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 3:12 am
by Gallia-
Who needs to "read posts" when you're drunk? Not Kat Tsun. BD
Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 3:14 am
by Dostanuot Loj
Gallia- wrote:Who needs to "read posts" when you're drunk? Not Kat Tsun. BD
I never thought you "read" posts ever. I just assumed you doused us with your knowledge as you saw fit.
Schwere Panzer Abteilung 502 wrote:The context of the question was a video that I unfortunately can't find the URL of. It was security footage of a store clerk pulling a handgun on a robber and probably hitting him five or six times; the robber kept going for a good 2-3 minutes before collapsing, though I'm pretty sure it said he was treated at a hospital and survived.
While I'm sure it's not impossible to be shot the same number of times by a rifle and keep going, I think it would probably be a lot less likely, especially if you're using full-power cartridges.
Is this a fluke? Again, sorry I can't find the link to the video, but the guy was definitely riddled with bullets and kept trucking while he was able to. I can't imagine that happening with most rifle rounds, and obviously not shotguns.
There are plenty of incidents of individual taking multiple rifle shots and remaining active. And generally it is the 5.56 that is the most deadly rifle round in common military use, because it tends to fragment more reliably and tumble sooner than full-sized rifle rounds.
In this particular video (which I recommend you take down before it gets reported) I can guarantee you that the robber did not sustain injuries to vital blood vessels, the brain or the heart. If he had he would have been on the floor before the video ended.
Hits kill, misses don't. That's 90% of stopping power. The most important factor apart from shot placement, by far, is penetration. Even a very big wound is unlikely to cause incapacitation unless the hole is deep enough to reach the heart/aorta/pulmonary arteries.
EDIT: BTW, for an interesting read, check out the 1986 Miami Shootout.
So with regards to the robber, he just happened to get lucky that the people shooting him weren't very good shots?
Re: Miami shootout, it sounds like the FBI was using pretty weak-ass firearms compared to the robbers. Isn't that what spurred the development of the Jesus cartridge, 10mm Auto?
Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 12:01 pm
