NS Military Realism Consultation Thread Vol. 11.0

[Purpelia]

What you fail to understand is that from my point of view being under the thumb of one foreign power that only allows me to work and eat so that I can buy their products (shitty television, SJW politics, coca cola and MC'donalds) is equivalent to being under the thumb of another foreign power that only allows me to work and eat so that I can buy their products (shitty T-shirts, unsafe electronics, Chinese food and communism). Neither of them have a desire to turn my country into Somalia 2.0. because they want me as a consumer market to leach off and enrich them self, or rather their elites. So it's all one and the same.

The days of a strong Europe and over. Now it's sadly our turn to be the colonies. And if you are a colony it hardly matters who the colonial overlord is if they want to rape you either way. At least with China we can look forward to someone who won't try and paint us blue.

[Gallia-]

What you fail to understand is

America is the greatest of all imperial rulers.

Neither of them have a desire to turn my country into Somalia 2.0

Sounds your own fault. Maybe if you lived in a country with a higher IQ you wouldn't have that problem? The PRC is just Romania without the fake elections, though. Or Belarus. Corrupt, broken, and degenerate, but they have a lot of inertia. Your problems and grievances would be exacerbated under the PRC because you would be subject to racial-ethnic sorting (i.e. communist party friendship-bureaucrat says "you're white, aka inferior race, so you drive this rickshaw now") and probably pushed out of your job by a less competent Chinese because he is Chinese and you are not. On top of that, none of your actual local problems would be solved, but rather they would be made worse, because the PRC would reward graft, embezzlement, and corruption because that is how the PRC operates.

Unlike the PRC, the USA is actually quite remarkably free of corruption for a broken country. Our corruption only extends to winning elections or embezzling funds to buy beer and other useless/minor things. We also don't reward it.

That said, the USA will probably always be strong enough to fend off the PRC's unwanted and unsolicited romantic advances, but the same isn't true for Europe, which needs every ounce of American liberty it can get.

The USA just isn't putting out, though, for dumb reasons. No tank divisions in every country bordering Russia. No Corps HQ in Europe to keep the communists out. No Marshall Plan to reindustrialize the West and counter the monopoly of PRC on Western goods (which they will probably use, eventually, to starve millions of Westerners of their iPhones and cheap, poorly made t-shirts!) supply, and no stopping of Chinese exploitation of Western science and technology for their own benefit and zero return. Instead it is the quarterly profit margins and split second thinking of financial capitalism coupled with uniquely Californian fifth columnism.

For better or worse the high powered CS PhDs of tomorrow are going to be Chinese, not European/Russian/American/Canadian. And yes, that includes you in the "loser" bucket. You might be able to experience it first hand, too. As shocking as it is to you that someone might pick someone over you in a job for reasons not at all related to "performance", this is actually an American idea, and by speaking the language of Americans you yourself are an American, because you view the world in the same lens as an American (for the most part).

Thus you are not only what you hate, you are not immune to the fate of those that you hate, either.

And that's why America being on top of the world is more important than your weird political beliefs.

[Purpelia]

Liberty and democracy in Europe is already a sacrifice burning on the altar of the EU. So unless Hungary somehow manages to restore the KuK that ship has long sailed.

[Scandinavian Nations]

Building sweatshops in Nebraska would let you buy cheap T-shirts or iPhones or whatever.

Building sweatshops in Nebraska is like drilling for oil on top of Mt.Everest.

Sweatshops mine cheap labor. You can't mine what isn't there.

[Gallia-]

Liberty and democracy in Europe is already a sacrifice burning on the altar of the EU. So unless Hungary somehow manages to restore the KuK that ship has long sailed.

OK Purp.

Building sweatshops in Nebraska would let you buy cheap T-shirts or iPhones or whatever.

Building sweatshops in Nebraska is like drilling for oil on top of Mt.Everest.

Sweatshops mine cheap labor. You can't mine what isn't there.

America has plenty of cheap labor. It just chooses to live in houses instead of live out of a car.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

Liberty and democracy in Europe is already a sacrifice burning on the altar of the EU. So unless Hungary somehow manages to restore the KuK that ship has long sailed.

Purp... are you a fascistoid now?

[Reorganized Soviet Union]

So Purp went full meme it seems.

[Scandinavian Nations]

America has plenty of cheap labor. It just chooses to live in houses instead of live out of a car.

No, it doesn't.
The minimum legal rate for labor in the US is $7.25/hour.
The competitive rate for sweatshop labor is around $1/hour.

[Gallia-]

America has plenty of cheap labor. It just chooses to live in houses instead of live out of a car.

No, it doesn't.
The minimum legal rate for labor in the US is $7.25/hour.

Then...drop it. :^)

A single minimum wage doesn't work for America anyway since it is about half a dozen currency areas now. If you transition the U.S. workforce from a home-based one to a migratory then you can simply go where work is, rather than waiting for work to come to you. You can also reduce their pay because they don't need to pay for a house or maintenance on one because they live out of a car instead of living in an apartment or whatever. Cutting the minimum wage in half seems adequate. Maybe lower for areas that have even lower living costs.

The competitive rate for sweatshop labor is around $1/hour.

Apple literally pays Chinese sweatshop workers double this so not really.

[Purpelia]

Liberty and democracy in Europe is already a sacrifice burning on the altar of the EU. So unless Hungary somehow manages to restore the KuK that ship has long sailed.

Purp... are you a fascistoid now?

No, I have just gotten disillusioned by an EU that is willing to levy sanctions against member states for daring to defy Germany.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

Purp... are you a fascistoid now?

No, I have just gotten disillusioned by an EU that is willing to levy sanctions against member states for daring to defy Germany.

Do you understand the concept of breach of contract?

[Purpelia]

No, I have just gotten disillusioned by an EU that is willing to levy sanctions against member states for daring to defy Germany.

Do you understand the concept of breach of contract?

Contract law is something you enforce on people you want to exploit, not on people you want to be friends with. At least not if you want them to remain your friends afterward. Especially if enforcing it comes in the form of forcefully overriding the democratic will of the other sides people.

[Zhouran]

Would a military suffering from tribal factionalism perform pretty poorly even if they have powerful allies and receive some of the best equipment and weapons? I'm asking since I remember reading a couple articles regarding Saudi Arabia and how their military actually suffers from various issues despite being hi-tech. One thing is that the Saudi military can't effectively perform large-scale warfare outside their borders, and apparently the Saudi military would do more harm than good to themselves if they were to send forces outside their borders at a scale larger than what's happening in Yemen.

Also, another thing I remember reading is that the Saudi military heavily relies on maintenance support from the West to the point where they're heavily dependent on foreign contractors to look after their toys.

Unlike the PRC, the USA is actually quite remarkably free of corruption for a broken country. Our corruption only extends to winning elections or embezzling funds to buy beer and other useless/minor things.

That's fake news, corruption in America is the result of Russian hacks...

But really, government corruption and political bureaucracy does happen everywhere, it's just some are quite good at being subtle whiles others aren't.

Liberty and democracy in Europe is already a sacrifice burning on the altar of the EU. So unless Hungary somehow manages to restore the KuK that ship has long sailed.

Those two are running pretty dry. Give the EU a few years time and they'll search hard for more things to sacrifice to the altar...

[Gallia-]

That's fake news, corruption in America is the result of Russian hacks...

I'll be sure to tell the county sheriff that next time he buys his nephew a pistol with kickback money. Especially when it helps him win the election by paying off a few voters to vote for him.

it's just some are quite good at being subtle whiles others aren't.

The PRC is about as subtle as a sledgehammer to the testes. It just doesn't bother punishing it because in the PRC, corruption isn't a flaw, it's a feature. This is true for other feudal societies, like Russia, too. Fealty goes up, power comes down.

Would a military suffering from tribal factionalism perform pretty poorly

Yes.

[The Manticoran Empire]

Would a military suffering from tribal factionalism perform pretty poorly even if they have powerful allies and receive some of the best equipment and weapons? I'm asking since I remember reading a couple articles regarding Saudi Arabia and how their military actually suffers from various issues despite being hi-tech. One thing is that the Saudi military can't effectively perform large-scale warfare outside their borders, and apparently the Saudi military would do more harm than good to themselves if they were to send forces outside their borders at a scale larger than what's happening in Yemen.

Also, another thing I remember reading is that the Saudi military heavily relies on maintenance support from the West to the point where they're heavily dependent on foreign contractors to look after their toys.

Unlike the PRC, the USA is actually quite remarkably free of corruption for a broken country. Our corruption only extends to winning elections or embezzling funds to buy beer and other useless/minor things.

That's fake news, corruption in America is the result of Russian hacks...

But really, government corruption and political bureaucracy does happen everywhere, it's just some are quite good at being subtle whiles others aren't.

Liberty and democracy in Europe is already a sacrifice burning on the altar of the EU. So unless Hungary somehow manages to restore the KuK that ship has long sailed.

Those two are running pretty dry. Give the EU a few years time and they'll search hard for more things to sacrifice to the altar...

The last thing a military needs is internal fighting.

[Theodosiya]

Any way to transform a SEA islands country to a semi developed country that could face everyone but USA, Russia, China and India? (Which means facing Singapore, Australia and Vietnam, if needed.)

[Taihei Tengoku]

Any way to transform a SEA islands country to a semi developed country that could face everyone but USA, Russia, China and India? (Which means facing Singapore, Australia and Vietnam, if needed.)

All you need is a man with a plan

[Questers]

Any way to transform a SEA islands country to a semi developed country that could face everyone but USA, Russia, China and India? (Which means facing Singapore, Australia and Vietnam, if needed.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_on_the_Han_River

[Questers]

1. Protect your major enterprises and industries from hostile foreign takeover by some method that doesn't render them totally uncompetitive.

2. Don't restrict imports. Do everything you can to promote exports and support your enterprises and industries. Find ways to keep the value of your currency weak without upsetting consumer market.

3. Kill corruption - kill it dead.

4. Make one generation of your population work really hard, really long, for their whole life.

5. Done.

[Gallia-]

6. Complacency and terminal downward spiral.

Really you should just stop at 4. Karoshi is supreme work ethic and Japan's failures are mostly political as opposed to moral.

[The Akasha Colony]

Would a military suffering from tribal factionalism perform pretty poorly even if they have powerful allies and receive some of the best equipment and weapons? I'm asking since I remember reading a couple articles regarding Saudi Arabia and how their military actually suffers from various issues despite being hi-tech. One thing is that the Saudi military can't effectively perform large-scale warfare outside their borders, and apparently the Saudi military would do more harm than good to themselves if they were to send forces outside their borders at a scale larger than what's happening in Yemen.

Also, another thing I remember reading is that the Saudi military heavily relies on maintenance support from the West to the point where they're heavily dependent on foreign contractors to look after their toys.

This is a well known problem with a very large swath of less-developed militaries. It tends to be particularly showcased with Arab militaries because unlike many militaries in Sub-Saharan Africa which also suffer from this problem, the Arabs tend to be involved in wars against each other (or Israel) pretty often. It is not unique to Saudi Arabia. Look at the sub-par performance of most Arab militaries in conflicts either with each other (Iran-Iraq War, Syrian Civil War) or with Western-aligned powers (ODS, Arab-Israeli Wars) and it is on obvious display.

The Gulf states try to paper over these issues by buying lots of high-tech weapons, because that's obviously much easier than trying to enact huge, wide-reaching social reforms that might end up eroding the power base of those in control. The less wealthy states in the region (Syria, Iraq, etc.) do not have this option and are thus stuck with the worst of both. And yes, they rely heavily on contractor support but this should hardly be surprising: they didn't build any of these weapon systems and don't have a particularly technically-inclined workforce. In the wealthy Gulf states most real work is done by imported labor from India, the Philippines, or just about anywhere else, but these groups are harder to put into the armed forces so they're stuck with a shortage of qualified personnel.

It's not just tribal factionalism either, it's class-based factionalism (deep divides between the officers and enlisted ranks), religious factionalism (Sunni vs. Shia), branch factionalism, as well as a culture that often values saving face over learning from mistakes.

Not all of these are unique to less-developed militaries though. Western militaries have at various times suffered from very toxic branch rivalries, with some of the worst examples being WWII Germany where branches received resources according to political influence with Hitler and the US military immediately after WWII, when each branch fought desperately to keep its share of the funding pie and throw the others under the bus during the post-war disarmament.

[Gallia-]

The current (very recent past?) UK is another example.

[The Manticoran Empire]

Would a military suffering from tribal factionalism perform pretty poorly even if they have powerful allies and receive some of the best equipment and weapons? I'm asking since I remember reading a couple articles regarding Saudi Arabia and how their military actually suffers from various issues despite being hi-tech. One thing is that the Saudi military can't effectively perform large-scale warfare outside their borders, and apparently the Saudi military would do more harm than good to themselves if they were to send forces outside their borders at a scale larger than what's happening in Yemen.

Also, another thing I remember reading is that the Saudi military heavily relies on maintenance support from the West to the point where they're heavily dependent on foreign contractors to look after their toys.

This is a well known problem with a very large swath of less-developed militaries. It tends to be particularly showcased with Arab militaries because unlike many militaries in Sub-Saharan Africa which also suffer from this problem, the Arabs tend to be involved in wars against each other (or Israel) pretty often. It is not unique to Saudi Arabia. Look at the sub-par performance of most Arab militaries in conflicts either with each other (Iran-Iraq War, Syrian Civil War) or with Western-aligned powers (ODS, Arab-Israeli Wars) and it is on obvious display.

The Gulf states try to paper over these issues by buying lots of high-tech weapons, because that's obviously much easier than trying to enact huge, wide-reaching social reforms that might end up eroding the power base of those in control. The less wealthy states in the region (Syria, Iraq, etc.) do not have this option and are thus stuck with the worst of both. And yes, they rely heavily on contractor support but this should hardly be surprising: they didn't build any of these weapon systems and don't have a particularly technically-inclined workforce. In the wealthy Gulf states most real work is done by imported labor from India, the Philippines, or just about anywhere else, but these groups are harder to put into the armed forces so they're stuck with a shortage of qualified personnel.

It's not just tribal factionalism either, it's class-based factionalism (deep divides between the officers and enlisted ranks), religious factionalism (Sunni vs. Shia), branch factionalism, as well as a culture that often values saving face over learning from mistakes.

Not all of these are unique to less-developed militaries though. Western militaries have at various times suffered from very toxic branch rivalries, with some of the worst examples being WWII Germany where branches received resources according to political influence with Hitler and the US military immediately after WWII, when each branch fought desperately to keep its share of the funding pie and throw the others under the bus during the post-war disarmament.

A big issue within Arab armies is the amount of control and paranoia held by the Arab leaders. Arab armies suffer from lack of individual initiative, problems with training and coordinating their forces, and a lack of competent senior officers.

[The Akasha Colony]

A big issue within Arab armies is the amount of control and paranoia held by the Arab leaders. Arab armies suffer from lack of individual initiative, problems with training and coordinating their forces, and a lack of competent senior officers.

Most of this fear is ultimately an outgrowth of tribalism though. The ruling clique is unwilling to give promotions to deserving and competent officers and would prefer to pack the ranks with members of the same tribe or allies. They would rather have a rather toothless force lacking real initiative than a competent force that might be more politically difficult to control.

The lack of initiative is also a symptom of the lack of willingness to make mistakes and a preference to save face: you can't be blamed for failures if you don't act in the first place!

These aren't absolutely insurmountable obstacles though. When somewhat freed from these shackles and with better training and practice, Arab armies have demonstrated they can perform adequately under certain conditions (namely, the ones they have trained for). The performance of the Egyptian Army in the Yom Kippur War is an example.

[Rich and Corporations]

1. Protect your major enterprises and industries from hostile foreign takeover by some method that doesn't render them totally uncompetitive.

What if your people aren't competitive?