NS Military Realism Consultation Thread Vol. 11.0

[NeuPolska]

In reality this thread is sadly cancer. I'm not even sure how much chemo I'll need after it.

Oh really? Thats a shame

Don’t listen to him, he just can’t handle the ‘sparg

We have some well educated people on here who study this sort of stuff for fun, as well as actual military service members. Just don’t be like the average NSer in terms of how you approach your military. If you can accept that this is a realism thread, then you’ll be fine

[Schwere Panzer Abteilung 502]

How good is the Bundeswehr today? This article doesn't paint a rosy picture on either Germany's military capabilities or willingness to commit to a buildup or meaningful deployment:

And four years into Mrs von der Leyen’s modernisation programme, Germany’s armed forces remain in a pitiful state, depleted after decades of post-Cold War neglect. The country is struggling to marshal enough working Leopard tanks (pictured above) for its modest—albeit welcome and historically unprecedented—NATO deployment in Lithuania. Its entire submarine fleet is out of service. The Luftwaffe’s planes and helicopters are available, on average, for around four months of the year. Earlier last week André Wüstner, the chairman of the German Bundeswehr Association, said the country might as well dissolve its armed forces if it was not prepared to make them deployable.

I had believed that Germany had the most robust military out of the major European states. If that's true, than France and the UK must be even worse off.

Is it the 'peace dividends' that have done this to the capitalizt west?

[Reorganized Soviet Union]

I thought everyone knew Germany had a joke of an army since the Cold War ended? France and the UK have actual functioning armies last I checked, though UK is dying to budget cuts.

[The Manticoran Empire]

I thought everyone knew Germany had a joke of an army since the Cold War ended? France and the UK have actual functioning armies last I checked, though UK is dying to budget cuts.

The Germans and the Brits have anemic militaries. Only France is actually competent.

[The Akasha Colony]

How good is the Bundeswehr today? This article doesn't paint a rosy picture on either Germany's military capabilities or willingness to commit to a buildup or meaningful deployment:

And four years into Mrs von der Leyen’s modernisation programme, Germany’s armed forces remain in a pitiful state, depleted after decades of post-Cold War neglect. The country is struggling to marshal enough working Leopard tanks (pictured above) for its modest—albeit welcome and historically unprecedented—NATO deployment in Lithuania. Its entire submarine fleet is out of service. The Luftwaffe’s planes and helicopters are available, on average, for around four months of the year. Earlier last week André Wüstner, the chairman of the German Bundeswehr Association, said the country might as well dissolve its armed forces if it was not prepared to make them deployable.

I had believed that Germany had the most robust military out of the major European states. If that's true, than France and the UK must be even worse off.

Is it the 'peace dividends' that have done this to the capitalizt west?

Germany's military does not stand out in Europe. And it certainly has a lot of problems.

What stands out is the strength of Germany's industrial base. To some degree, Germany's problems are less severe than those of France or the UK because they are easier to fix. Germany is still producing Leopard 2s and thus still has active production lines for spares, meaning that with some additional funding, it could significantly increase readiness rates relatively quickly. The same is true of the submarine fleet and the Luftwaffe. There is simply a lack of willingness to spend enough money for this to happen, but at the very least the German government still seems determined to keep the factories running, if only because they're basically jobs programs.

This is in contrast to the UK where a big problem is a lack of a domestic industrial base, meaning that even a sudden infusion of cash would require several years to see any results as the defense base is slowly resurrected. France is somewhat in the middle; it still has an industrial base for light and medium vehicles as well as aircraft but no longer has active production lines for heavy AFVs.

I thought everyone knew Germany had a joke of an army since the Cold War ended? France and the UK have actual functioning armies last I checked, though UK is dying to budget cuts.

The British military is primarily suffering from the same problem the US Army is suffering from: lack of clear direction. The government and the defense ministry lack the ability to set a clear list of strategic priorities and keep to that list, instead jumping from one program to another in rapid succession and wasting significant quantities of money and time along the way.

The British government also lacks any real sense of urgency in regards to maintaining the defense industrial base, with the exception of keeping BAE's shipbuilding around in a zombie-like barely alive state. The French have done a better job with their defense industrial base, while the Germans have done the best out of all of Western Europe.

[Gallia-]

How good is the Bundeswehr today? This article doesn't paint a rosy picture on either Germany's military capabilities or willingness to commit to a buildup or meaningful deployment:

And four years into Mrs von der Leyen’s modernisation programme, Germany’s armed forces remain in a pitiful state, depleted after decades of post-Cold War neglect. The country is struggling to marshal enough working Leopard tanks (pictured above) for its modest—albeit welcome and historically unprecedented—NATO deployment in Lithuania. Its entire submarine fleet is out of service. The Luftwaffe’s planes and helicopters are available, on average, for around four months of the year. Earlier last week André Wüstner, the chairman of the German Bundeswehr Association, said the country might as well dissolve its armed forces if it was not prepared to make them deployable.

I had believed that Germany had the most robust military out of the major European states. If that's true, than France and the UK must be even worse off.

Is it the 'peace dividends' that have done this to the capitalizt west?

>most robust military

What? Germany just has no border threats. For that matter, neither do the UK nor France.

Germany just realized it would need to continue keeping its industrial base around, in case it had threats in the future (the fact that it was exporting weapons was helpful, but that didn't stop them from developing SPz Puma, SPz Marder II, Boxer MRAV, MTU 883, or deep modernizations of Leopard 2 like KWS I/II), possibly because the Germans realized the possibility of war in the future? Or maybe German planners are just, in general, higher IQ than Frenchmen and Englishmen? Possible. The United States did something similar, being a German country in its heart of hearts, although it actually had threats in the form of Iran, North Korea, and the PRC to think about it too.

The entire West lollygagged for 25 years because, somehow, it had convinced itself that democratic countries never go to war with each other (we are in a war with Russia, are we not?) or something, and so because Russia was "democratic" it was now a friend. Cue 20 years of really dumb "resets" and "friendships" with people who, not 10 years earlier, were sworn enemies of Western civilization. Literally the same people. No doubt Putin still keeps his KGB Colonel uniform in his closet and it probably still fits.

Only the United States and Germany have kept any real semblance of their war industries alive. That said, when the next war comes (it's already here, though), the arsenal of democracy will be in Berlin, not Washington. Neoliberal privatization is mostly cancerous for national defense, and national sovereignty, but it's also the end point of capitalism as we've developed it. It's hard to imagine an alternative to globalisation unless you artificially keep wages down for Western workers or something, which ultimately means that the factories eventually do come back, but they're owned by Indian and Chinese billionaires/political agents (respectively) instead of Americans or Britons and have zero concern for national futures.

Sans maybe F-35 and the entire U.S. Navy (the latter of which isn't for export), the USA simply lacks the ability to supply NATO allies with large amounts of weapons. Germany possesses this ability and it will lead the way though. Anyway the "best" military in Europe is probably the Russian one. NATO armies are too poorly equipped, too poorly trained, or both, as you get further East, to actually challenge them. The 2nd best military is the United States Army.

Germany is in the best position to recover domestically, which in the long term is the best form of recovery because you control all aspects of production. Britain is in the best position to recover period, although Britain will become totally economically dependent on other countries in the future for its Army's defense goods. Perhaps they will buy Chinese fighter jets after F-35.

[The Manticoran Empire]

How good is the Bundeswehr today? This article doesn't paint a rosy picture on either Germany's military capabilities or willingness to commit to a buildup or meaningful deployment:



I had believed that Germany had the most robust military out of the major European states. If that's true, than France and the UK must be even worse off.

Is it the 'peace dividends' that have done this to the capitalizt west?

>most robust military

What? Germany just has no border threats. For that matter, neither do the UK nor France.

Germany just realized it would need to continue keeping its industrial base around, in case it had threats in the future (the fact that it was exporting weapons was helpful, but that didn't stop them from developing SPz Puma, SPz Marder II, Boxer MRAV, MTU 883, or deep modernizations of Leopard 2 like KWS I/II), possibly because the Germans realized the possibility of war in the future? Or maybe German planners are just, in general, higher IQ than Frenchmen and Englishmen? Possible. The United States did something similar, being a German country in its heart of hearts, although it actually had threats in the form of Iran, North Korea, and the PRC to think about it too.

The entire West lollygagged for 25 years because, somehow, it had convinced itself that democratic countries never go to war with each other (we are in a war with Russia, are we not?) or something, and so because Russia was "democratic" it was now a friend. Cue 20 years of really dumb "resets" and "friendships" with people who, not 10 years earlier, were sworn enemies of Western civilization. Literally the same people. No doubt Putin still keeps his KGB Colonel uniform in his closet and it probably still fits.

Only the United States and Germany have kept any real semblance of their war industries alive. That said, when the next war comes (it's already here, though), the arsenal of democracy will be in Berlin, not Washington. Neoliberal privatization is mostly cancerous for national defense, and national sovereignty, but it's also the end point of capitalism as we've developed it. It's hard to imagine an alternative to globalisation unless you artificially keep wages down for Western workers or something, which ultimately means that the factories eventually do come back, but they're owned by Indian and Chinese billionaires/political agents (respectively) instead of Americans or Britons and have zero concern for national futures.

Sans maybe F-35 and the entire U.S. Navy (the latter of which isn't for export), the USA simply lacks the ability to supply NATO allies with large amounts of weapons. Germany possesses this ability and it will lead the way though. Anyway the "best" military in Europe is probably the Russian one. NATO armies are too poorly equipped, too poorly trained, or both, as you get further East, to actually challenge them. The 2nd best military is the United States Army.

Germany is in the best position to recover domestically, which in the long term is the best form of recovery because you control all aspects of production. Britain is in the best position to recover period, although Britain will become totally economically dependent on other countries in the future for its Army's defense goods. Perhaps they will buy Chinese fighter jets after F-35.

Germany also has no spare parts for it's army, navy, or air force, half of its Air Force and Army inventory is Non-Mission Capable due to lack of repairs, and its Navy is anchored for much the same reason.

Less than half of German Air Force ready for deployment
Barely one third of Germany's Tornado attack planes are operational. It's worse for their fighters, of which they can't even fill a SQUADRON with 8 out of 109 according to this article. The German Army can't maintain their armored forces, as evidenced by this article. According to that article, of the Bundeswehr's arsenal of 255 Leopard 2 tanks, only 95 are operational. That is a mere 37% of available armored combat capability. That same article states that 53 vehicles have been disarmed, seven are being used for testing, and 89 are "conditionally operational" due to lack of spare parts.

Germany can't even supply its OWN armed forces, much less anyone else.

[Gallia-]

Laughing irl.

[NeuPolska]

This is why we need monarchies

Bring back the Kaiser!

[Gallia-]

This is why we need monarchies

Bring back the Kaiser!

The Kaiser would just shut down all the tank factories because the DKP was a free trade party. Cheaper to buy Chinese tanks than make your own.

[NeuPolska]

This is why we need monarchies

Bring back the Kaiser!

The Kaiser would just shut down all the tank factories because the DKP was a free trade party. Cheaper to buy Chinese tanks than make your own.

Party doesn’t matter, it’s not like he’d be elected or some shit.

On top of that, the DKP ended in 1918. Doesn’t have to be brought back with the Kaiser.

[Gallia-]

words

The point is that modern Germany is very protectionist towards its defense industries and they are extremely profitable and productive relative to the non-existence of every other Western European tank factory. Manticoran Empire apparently cannot possibly fathom the idea that the Germans pay less for their own tanks than the Chileans, Turks, Norwegians, Swedes, Poles, and Singaporeans. Never mind that Germany is the only Western country building a new main battle tank, is procuring large quantities of SPz Puma, and generally has a far more successful track record of materiel acquisitions than the rest of the West.

But apparently the state of the German military is the state of the German industry. A bit like saying the state of your coat closet represents the state of your kitchen cupboard.

[The Manticoran Empire]

words

The point is that modern Germany is very protectionist towards its defense industries and they are extremely profitable and productive relative to the non-existence of every other Western European tank factory. Manticoran Empire apparently cannot possibly fathom the idea that the Germans pay less for their own tanks than the Chileans, Turks, Norwegians, Swedes, Poles, and Singaporeans. Never mind that Germany is the only Western country building a new main battle tank, is procuring large quantities of SPz Puma, and generally has a far more successful track record of materiel acquisitions than the rest of the West.

Tanks that they cannot keep maintained. Or is "reading" a problem for you?

[Gallia-]

Or is "reading" a problem for you?

I'm not the person who thinks the Bundeswehr is supposed to be a tank factory. Shockingly enough, and as surprising to you as it might be, the Bundeswehr and the factory managers are actually different groups of people.

[The Manticoran Empire]

Or is "reading" a problem for you?

I'm not the person who thinks the Bundeswehr is supposed to be a tank factory. Shockingly enough, and as surprising to you as it might be, the Bundeswehr and the factory managers are actually different groups of people.

You are sitting here touting the ability of Germany to arm Europe and it can't even arm itself.

[Gallia-]

You are sitting here touting the ability of Germany to arm Europe

Yes, it is the shocking truth: Germans have tank factories. But I'm actually suggesting Germany would arm the entirety of NATO. Including the United States Army.

and it can't even arm itself.

Perhaps the most irrelevant (and inane) correlation ever. For the inverse: The United States has a massive army and it cannot build a single thing.

The only nation in the Free World that retains the ability to recapitalize equipment, and actually does so, is South Korea. America cannot recapitalize at all despite needing to for decades. Germany merely chooses not to.

[The Akasha Colony]

Tanks that they cannot keep maintained. Or is "reading" a problem for you?

Have you not bothered reading anything?

Germany has equipment that is out of service because the government has chosen not to fund sufficient parts for them. This is obviously a problem, but not a very big one because it is easily solved: the government just has to buy more parts, or buy entirely new vehicles. It still has active factories producing all of these things, so all it has to do is order some more. They're still building more submarines, more tanks, and more Eurofighters. Tornado is out of production but they can buy discarded British aircraft if they really need more spares. Or more likely, just use Eurofighters to replace them.

This is a minor issue compared to, say, the UK, which lacks the industry to build new armored fighting vehicles. Which means the moment they stop being able to cannibalize spares from their existing inventory of Challenger 2s, they're stuck. There's no factory to order new parts from. Or to order next-generation tanks from. Because the last new Challenger 2 was delivered more than a decade ago and the factory was shuttered. The closest thing to an AFV factory the British have left is the final assembly facility for the Scout SV program, but that's just assembling knock-down kits imported from Spain, not a serious production line. Establishing a new factory would take time, and most importantly it would take additional financial effort which is a big ask given that "efficiency savings" is the British MoD's favorite buzzword for the last few decades.

The point is that the German ministry of defense's decision not to procure adequate stocks of spares is not a reflection of Germany's inability to produce those spares. It obviously can, it is still actively producing and exporting Leopard 2s, Type 212s, Eurofighters, as well as new surface escorts. And it is still pushing Puma and Boxer on the international market. Germany has problems it can fix fairly easily because its industrial policy has been to continue to support the existence of heavy industry. The UK has problems that are much more difficult to solve, and France is headed down that path but isn't in quite the same boat yet.

Germany is in the same position as Japan: it is committed to maintaining its industry and its industrial independence, but not quite as committed to actually maintaining a strong military as a budgetary priority. Except that unlike Japan, Germany has fewer qualms about using exports to prop up that industry, although Japan in the last few years has moved toward a more liberal defense export policy as well.

[State77]

Where's the forum for ifv and mbt designs? I can't find it and I need advice for my nation's armed forces.

[Theodosiya]

words

The point is that modern Germany is very protectionist towards its defense industries and they are extremely profitable and productive relative to the non-existence of every other Western European tank factory. Manticoran Empire apparently cannot possibly fathom the idea that the Germans pay less for their own tanks than the Chileans, Turks, Norwegians, Swedes, Poles, and Singaporeans. Never mind that Germany is the only Western country building a new main battle tank, is procuring large quantities of SPz Puma, and generally has a far more successful track record of materiel acquisitions than the rest of the West.

But apparently the state of the German military is the state of the German industry. A bit like saying the state of your coat closet represents the state of your kitchen cupboard.

Eh, you forgot us, Indonesian. Apparently, Army plans for more MBTs and MLRS, and to form another Division. Also, Su-35 is coming, pretty big chance for 48 F-16V, more subs...

Well, doubt if we're ever be like US, in military terms, but being big boss in SEA + Oceania sounds nice.

[Gallia-]

Eh, you forgot us, Indonesian. Apparently, Army plans for more MBTs and MLRS, and to form another Division. Also, Su-35 is coming, pretty big chance for 48 F-16V, more subs...

Well, doubt if we're ever be like US, in military terms, but being big boss in SEA + Oceania sounds nice.

You will be a German colony instead of a Dutch one. Good job?

[NeuPolska]

Why do a bunch of scattered islands need tanks?

What you need is more warships

[Theodosiya]

Eh, you forgot us, Indonesian. Apparently, Army plans for more MBTs and MLRS, and to form another Division. Also, Su-35 is coming, pretty big chance for 48 F-16V, more subs...

Well, doubt if we're ever be like US, in military terms, but being big boss in SEA + Oceania sounds nice.

You will be a German colony instead of a Dutch one. Good job?

Eh, doubt it. We buy from SK, USA, Germany, Russia, Brazil, PRC, Turkey...
Point is, we buy from everyone, hopefully until we could at least start to license, and hopefully, produce our own.

Why do a bunch of scattered islands need tanks?

What you need is more warships

More 10514 Sigma is being planned and bought, another sub going to come this year, another come out from yard next year, plan for heavy frigates to be bought...

[The Akasha Colony]

Why do a bunch of scattered islands need tanks?

What you need is more warships

Indonesia does have land borders, you know.

And for obvious reasons, mechanized units are much more effective as counter-landing forces than foot infantry units or light motorized units.

[Theodosiya]

Why do a bunch of scattered islands need tanks?

What you need is more warships

Indonesia does have land borders, you know.

And for obvious reasons, mechanized units are much more effective as counter-landing forces than foot infantry units or light motorized units.

Land border with Malaysia, PNG and East Timor...

And before Leo 2A4 & RI, we only have AMX-13 and Scorps 90. At the same time, Malaysia have PT-91M and Singapore have Leo 2. See the irony?

[Gallia-]

Indonesia's worst enemy is itself.