NS Military Realism Consultation Thread Vol. 11.0

[New Vihenia]

Finally. First image of our new "Ramjet manpads"




Pardon for the poor operator Image. The missile is basically Mistral but the Pyramidal shaped nose cone is not only to provide the seeker with its POV but also as the inlet shock cone. The booster stage will propel the missile to Ramjet working speed, then a sustainer, some Boron enriched grain starts and providing the thrust all the way to target. The rear fins are wraparound fin, while the canard is should be smaller but basically works like the good ol Igla or stinger.

[Purpelia]

In case anyone is interesting here is the background for the river battleship issue:

In the 1870's my region had a huge world depression event happening. As in there was no money to be had for military budgets. And before that there was a decade of relative peace where people figured they wouldn't need huge armies. Well, all that changed in the 1880's when a number of events happened that accelerated issues. And to cut a long story short the late 80's are the start of an arms race. Turning for a moment to geography Purpelia is a land of rivers. But so are, unsurprisingly my immediate neighbors. The largest and most promiment of these is the great white river which passes through Purpelia north to south before making a bend and flowing all the way east through both Bigtopias (my primary rival) and out into the eastern ocean. This river is massive. We are talking Danube/Nile/Mississippi/Yellow River etc. At its widest its as much as 10km wide. And it flows through a number of big and important cities on both sides of the border including the all important western hub and occasional capital of West Bigtopia Twin Mounds on the Lady. So, quite naturally an arms race develops around controlling and blocking this river. And these "river battleships" emerge as an attempt to create a literal immovable object to ensure none can pass.

[Mitheldalond]

In case anyone is interesting here is the background for the river battleship issue:

In the 1870's my region had a huge world depression event happening. As in there was no money to be had for military budgets. And before that there was a decade of relative peace where people figured they wouldn't need huge armies. Well, all that changed in the 1880's when a number of events happened that accelerated issues. And to cut a long story short the late 80's are the start of an arms race. Turning for a moment to geography Purpelia is a land of rivers. But so are, unsurprisingly my immediate neighbors. The largest and most promiment of these is the great white river which passes through Purpelia north to south before making a bend and flowing all the way east through both Bigtopias (my primary rival) and out into the eastern ocean. This river is massive. We are talking Danube/Nile/Mississippi/Yellow River etc. At its widest its as much as 10km wide. And it flows through a number of big and important cities on both sides of the border including the all important western hub and occasional capital of West Bigtopia Twin Mounds on the Lady. So, quite naturally an arms race develops around controlling and blocking this river. And these "river battleships" emerge as an attempt to create a literal immovable object to ensure none can pass.

Ask and you shall receive! Behold:

Fort Drum! Covered in 20-36 FEET of reinforced concrete and bristling with a quartet of 14" rifles in heavily armored turrets. And presumably significantly cheaper than an actual battleship. Just build one (or more) of these in the river near your border, and you've basically won.

As for your original question about the largest ship you could fit on a river, how deep is this river?

[Purpelia]

As for your original question about the largest ship you could fit on a river, how deep is this river?

How ever deep huge navigable rivers are. I basically have zero knowledge about this beyond the fact I like the way rivers look.

[Gallia-]

Just build one (or more) of these in the river near your border, and you've basically won.

Sure stopped the Japanese alright.

[Mitheldalond]

Just build one (or more) of these in the river near your border, and you've basically won.

Sure stopped the Japanese alright.

The first Japanese attack on the fort was on January 2nd, 1941. It was frequently shelled by Japanese heavy artillery for about 2 and a half months starting in mid February. From April 10th to May 6th it - and the other forts - were the only US controlled positions in the area (so no ability to resupply). The US garrison surrendered on May 6th, presumably from a lack of supplies, having taken zero casualties. The main guns had fired on Japanese forces on May 5th, and were destroyed by the American troops to prevent their capture.

In 1945, the fort was subjected to heavy air and naval bombardment, which as can be seen from present day photos, didn't do very much to it (the damage to the turret is from the US sabotage in 1941). The Americans decided to fill it with gasoline and diesel fuel and light the entire thing on fire - three times - rather than attempt an assault.

As long as you keep it supplied and don't let the enemy camp on the roof with tanker trucks full of napalm, it isn't going anywhere. And both of those are much easier to do when it's built on your nation's border, as opposed to several thousand miles away across the ocean.

[The Manticoran Empire]

Sure stopped the Japanese alright.

The first Japanese attack on the fort was on January 2nd, 1941. It was frequently shelled by Japanese heavy artillery for about 2 and a half months starting in mid February. From April 10th to May 6th it - and the other forts - were the only US controlled positions in the area (so no ability to resupply). The US garrison surrendered on May 6th, presumably from a lack of supplies, having taken zero casualties. The main guns had fired on Japanese forces on May 5th, and were destroyed by the American troops to prevent their capture.

In 1945, the fort was subjected to heavy air and naval bombardment, which as can be seen from present day photos, didn't do very much to it (the damage to the turret is from the US sabotage in 1941). The Americans decided to fill it with gasoline and diesel fuel and light the entire thing on fire - three times - rather than attempt an assault.

As long as you keep it supplied and don't let the enemy camp on the roof with tanker trucks full of napalm, it isn't going anywhere. And both of those are much easier to do when it's built on your nation's border, as opposed to several thousand miles away across the ocean.

Uh...I think you mean 1942.

[Mitheldalond]

The first Japanese attack on the fort was on January 2nd, 1941. It was frequently shelled by Japanese heavy artillery for about 2 and a half months starting in mid February. From April 10th to May 6th it - and the other forts - were the only US controlled positions in the area (so no ability to resupply). The US garrison surrendered on May 6th, presumably from a lack of supplies, having taken zero casualties. The main guns had fired on Japanese forces on May 5th, and were destroyed by the American troops to prevent their capture.

In 1945, the fort was subjected to heavy air and naval bombardment, which as can be seen from present day photos, didn't do very much to it (the damage to the turret is from the US sabotage in 1941). The Americans decided to fill it with gasoline and diesel fuel and light the entire thing on fire - three times - rather than attempt an assault.

As long as you keep it supplied and don't let the enemy camp on the roof with tanker trucks full of napalm, it isn't going anywhere. And both of those are much easier to do when it's built on your nation's border, as opposed to several thousand miles away across the ocean.

Uh...I think you mean 1942.

...Yes. Yes I do.

No if you'll excuse me, I have to go sit in my corner of shame.

[Immoren]

Because we we're talking about NCO's here and infantry thread, I made some semi-comprehensive(?) infograph(?) about rise and fall (?) of career NCO corps here for inspiration(?).
lol

[Gallia-]

Fort Drum did nothing except surrender. Then it got firebombed by some Joes. Good job I guess?

It contributed almost nothing (it shot some barges crossing a river, big deal) to the battle and subsequently received little to no attention from the enemy. Small wonder the garrison came out with no casualties when the Japanese didn't consider it a big enough threat to actually neutralize it given its poor showing lol. It's not like they didn't have armor piercing bombs or whatever. It couldn't even successfully counter-battery some howitzers with the support of some Long Toms. Maybe the only thing it did was keep the Japanese from sailing a battleship up Manila Bay I guess, but it was kind of stupid to invest in it in the first place since the battleship would probably have won anyway, even if she ran aground. Dewey's cruiser squadron showed you could do the same with less.

A fort built in the same manner back in the day, but on a river, would suffer the same fate: being assaulted by engineers in paddle boats and destroyed quickly. Except faster, because it's on a river, and not in the middle of a huge bay. You would be better off doing what Purp loves and putting some howitzers on barges in canals and towing them around as mobile batteries. This is what the US Navy did because it understood how artillery and water interact. The US Army didn't.

Riverine Force c. 1867 when.

[Republic of Penguinian Astronautia]

Are there any armored vehicles with the ability to be switched between wheels and tracks?

[Gallia-]

Yes there are a few but most of them are pre-WW2.

[The Akasha Colony]

Are there any armored vehicles with the ability to be switched between wheels and tracks?

I believe there are some track concepts that you can throw over wheels, but they're basically glorified snow chains. The Soviets found out with the BT series that there isn't much point.

[Kassaran]

In 1945, the fort was subjected to heavy air and naval bombardment, which as can be seen from present day photos, didn't do very much to it (the damage to the turret is from the US sabotage in 1941). The Americans decided to fill it with gasoline and diesel fuel and light the entire thing on fire - three times - rather than attempt an assault.

Kill it with fire taken to the fullest extent... But then again, the US was a bit fire-happy about that time. Not as fire-happy as the British and nowhere near as napalm loving during the Korean War or the latter Vietnam war, but they did love their pyrotechnics. Makes me wonder about the role of flame-troopers/flamethrowers in older armies and in the modern day. Ya'll got any role for it, or did the idea pretty much get eliminated with hyper-accurate flying remote boyos?

[Shanghai industrial complex]

Sure stopped the Japanese alright.

The first Japanese attack on the fort was on January 2nd, 1941. It was frequently shelled by Japanese heavy artillery for about 2 and a half months starting in mid February. From April 10th to May 6th it - and the other forts - were the only US controlled positions in the area (so no ability to resupply). The US garrison surrendered on May 6th, presumably from a lack of supplies, having taken zero casualties. The main guns had fired on Japanese forces on May 5th, and were destroyed by the American troops to prevent their capture.

In 1945, the fort was subjected to heavy air and naval bombardment, which as can be seen from present day photos, didn't do very much to it (the damage to the turret is from the US sabotage in 1941). The Americans decided to fill it with gasoline and diesel fuel and light the entire thing on fire - three times - rather than attempt an assault.

As long as you keep it supplied and don't let the enemy camp on the roof with tanker trucks full of napalm, it isn't going anywhere. And both of those are much easier to do when it's built on your nation's border, as opposed to several thousand miles away across the ocean.

But if the fort is somewhere else,for example, Guam.And add some small caliber auxiliary guns and antiaircraft guns.How much trouble will it cause to the attacking Japanese army?

[Gallia-]

In 1945, the fort was subjected to heavy air and naval bombardment, which as can be seen from present day photos, didn't do very much to it (the damage to the turret is from the US sabotage in 1941). The Americans decided to fill it with gasoline and diesel fuel and light the entire thing on fire - three times - rather than attempt an assault.

Kill it with fire taken to the fullest extent...

As opposed to...? Clearing fortifications with flamethrowers and gasoline is about as common as using tear gas and flooding. A structure like Drum would and should be approached with the same sort of trepidation as a major bastion or underground tunnel system: flood it with whatever is available and maybe set it on fire if you can manage. Water probably would have been better than gasoline (faster) but they probably didn't have enough water pumps or something. And no tear gas or cyanide to flood the place. Dumping gas down the air vents and light it on fire causes big flame and chokes everyone left inside.

[Kazarogkai]

I wonder if they're actual Adamites with the holy nudism and everything.

The name is derived from an old name for the Region: Adam Land or Land of Adam in reference to it being a proverbial virgin land or a second garden of eden of sort. No nudism. On the otherhand they do launch brutal Crusades against local native american groups and engage in both bride kidnapping and head hunting against their enemies and even kidnap children(especially young boys) who are subsequently forcefully indoctrinated and conscripted into their military.

[Purpelia]

You people need to remember the period for this. I am not designing a fort for use in WW2. This thing, be it a fortress or a battleship would be built in the period between 1890 and 1910. Construction techniques and capabilities of the time are comparatively rudimentary. And anything constructed would end up looking more like Fort Douaumont at Verdun than anything built in the 30's. So a giant brick structure with an artificial mountain worth of dirt piled on top to absorb shells and not a concrete box. Furthermore, this thing would have to be built in a wide open valley next to a major river with a propensity for semi regular seasonal flooding. And that's not exactly the sort of terrain that lends it self to massive concrete blocks or indeed massive constructions of any kind. The ground is simply too soft which would lead to sinking and end up costing insane amounts of money as I'd basically have to anchor this thing to the bedrock with 1900's technology. Unless of course I build it safely inland which entirely defeats the point.

Plus there is the strategic aspect in the fact that unless I build a whole string of forts along my entire border this thing can be bypassed cut off and stormed from behind relatively easily. Or, should I advance onward it can't provide any cover and fire support to my advancing units. Where as a battleship can do both just by driving back and forth in the river. Remember, nobody in the world knew that WW1 would be as static as it was. Everybody expected a repeat of the Napoleonic conflicts.

So overall I see a mobile warship, even if it is a silly 8kt river monitor to be a better investment.

[Radimostan]

You people need to remember the period for this. I am not designing a fort for use in WW2. This thing, be it a fortress or a battleship would be built in the period between 1890 and 1910. Construction techniques and capabilities of the time are comparatively rudimentary. And anything constructed would end up looking more like Fort Douaumont at Verdun than anything built in the 30's. So a giant brick structure with an artificial mountain worth of dirt piled on top to absorb shells and not a concrete box. Furthermore, this thing would have to be built in a wide open valley next to a major river with a propensity for semi regular seasonal flooding. And that's not exactly the sort of terrain that lends it self to massive concrete blocks or indeed massive constructions of any kind. The ground is simply too soft which would lead to sinking and end up costing insane amounts of money as I'd basically have to anchor this thing to the bedrock with 1900's technology. Unless of course I build it safely inland which entirely defeats the point.

Plus there is the strategic aspect in the fact that unless I build a whole string of forts along my entire border this thing can be bypassed cut off and stormed from behind relatively easily. Or, should I advance onward it can't provide any cover and fire support to my advancing units. Where as a battleship can do both just by driving back and forth in the river. Remember, nobody in the world knew that WW1 would be as static as it was. Everybody expected a repeat of the Napoleonic conflicts.

So overall I see a mobile warship, even if it is a silly 8kt river monitor to be a better investment.

Wouldn't it be even better to have a whole river flotilla of smaller monitors?

[Purpelia]

You people need to remember the period for this. I am not designing a fort for use in WW2. This thing, be it a fortress or a battleship would be built in the period between 1890 and 1910. Construction techniques and capabilities of the time are comparatively rudimentary. And anything constructed would end up looking more like Fort Douaumont at Verdun than anything built in the 30's. So a giant brick structure with an artificial mountain worth of dirt piled on top to absorb shells and not a concrete box. Furthermore, this thing would have to be built in a wide open valley next to a major river with a propensity for semi regular seasonal flooding. And that's not exactly the sort of terrain that lends it self to massive concrete blocks or indeed massive constructions of any kind. The ground is simply too soft which would lead to sinking and end up costing insane amounts of money as I'd basically have to anchor this thing to the bedrock with 1900's technology. Unless of course I build it safely inland which entirely defeats the point.

Plus there is the strategic aspect in the fact that unless I build a whole string of forts along my entire border this thing can be bypassed cut off and stormed from behind relatively easily. Or, should I advance onward it can't provide any cover and fire support to my advancing units. Where as a battleship can do both just by driving back and forth in the river. Remember, nobody in the world knew that WW1 would be as static as it was. Everybody expected a repeat of the Napoleonic conflicts.

So overall I see a mobile warship, even if it is a silly 8kt river monitor to be a better investment.

Wouldn't it be even better to have a whole river flotilla of smaller monitors?

Yes, that's what will actually happen. But arms races being arms races there is also going to be one of two of these things that serve more as giant prestige pieces/national genital compensators. And than they turn out to be surprisingly useful come WW1 as railroad artillery platforms. Of course, if they do end up fighting each other in a fleet action that would be awesome. Thus it MUST happen.

[Austrasien]

Finally. First image of our new "Ramjet manpads"

(Image)
(Image)

Pardon for the poor operator Image. The missile is basically Mistral but the Pyramidal shaped nose cone is not only to provide the seeker with its POV but also as the inlet shock cone. The booster stage will propel the missile to Ramjet working speed, then a sustainer, some Boron enriched grain starts and providing the thrust all the way to target. The rear fins are wraparound fin, while the canard is should be smaller but basically works like the good ol Igla or stinger.

You deserve a thread to yourself really.

[Socialist Macronesia]

I don't really understand much about naval combat, any good starting sources for someone who knows little to nothing about it?

[Hrstrovokia]

I don't really understand much about naval combat, any good starting sources for someone who knows little to nothing about it?

World of Warships

[Purpelia]

I don't really understand much about naval combat, any good starting sources for someone who knows little to nothing about it?

https://www.youtube.com/user/Drachinifel/videos

[Taihei Tengoku]

I don't really understand much about naval combat, any good starting sources for someone who knows little to nothing about it?

World of Warships :p

No

I don't really understand much about naval combat, any good starting sources for someone who knows little to nothing about it?

https://www.youtube.com/user/Drachinifel/videos

Hell no

Watch Master and Commander or something instead