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NS Military Realism Consultation Thread Vol. 11.0

A place to put national factbooks, embassy exchanges, and other information regarding the nations of the world. [In character]

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Gallia-
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Posts: 25549
Founded: Oct 09, 2013
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Gallia- » Mon Jul 13, 2020 5:08 pm

Yes after literal decades of being behind schedule and billions upon billions of self-funded investment by Lockheed Martin (as well as the numerous subsidies from the USAF and international backers) to achieve a state-of-the-art high tech manufacturing capability. So if you discount all of those sunk costs it is very much cheaper. Gripen comes out to around $130 million per fighter if you include the cost of setting up a factory t. the Brazil deal for 36 fighters and a factory. Who knows how much F-35 costs on the same grounds, but considering Gripen, being a worse F-16, is built with relatively conventional 1970's metalworking technology that is fairly simple even for actual third world countries like Brazil or India to grasp, while F-35 requires a hyper cyber age gigafactory that is difficult for even the United States to master, I suspect the difference is rather steep.

You would expect the flyaway costs to converge since they are relatively comparable aircraft, but the timeframe and investment needed in the backing infrastructure is going to be massively more capital intensive than the Gripen. Which is why third worlders like Brazil are making Gripens and not F-35s.

So building 5,000 F-35's and keeping them around for decades is probably going to cost a lot more than building 5,000 Gripens and keeping them around for decades, naturally. Perhaps an order of magnitude more.

Building a Gripen is not fundamentally much different from building an F-16, or a Viggen, or even a Draken, in all seriousness.
Last edited by Gallia- on Mon Jul 13, 2020 5:11 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Allanea
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Founded: Antiquity
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Allanea » Mon Jul 13, 2020 5:09 pm

Purpelia wrote:[
I know what was done historically. My question is how crazy I could go with making it BIG without just looking terribly stupid. Like, I imagine something on the scale of a late WW2 destroyer (in size) would be plausible. Or hell, maybe some way of getting battleship grade guns on something on a river. Can you like imagine 12 inch guns being fired from a river boat at another river boat?

On that note I have for a long time now decided to check if I can put railroad scale guns on a river barge for WW1 use as a railroad artillery equivalent.



Image
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Allanea
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Capitalist Paradise

Postby Allanea » Mon Jul 13, 2020 5:11 pm

Gallia- wrote:is this a coast guard ship?

the cannons can shoot big nets to capture poacher fishing trawlers


WW1 river monitor.
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Sometimes, there really is money on the sidewalk.

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Allanea
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Capitalist Paradise

Postby Allanea » Mon Jul 13, 2020 5:11 pm

And here's another one.

Image

Yes those are 15-inch guns.
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Allanea
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Capitalist Paradise

Postby Allanea » Mon Jul 13, 2020 5:14 pm

Those are actually some Italian monitors. [Chaditors?]
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Gallia-
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Founded: Oct 09, 2013
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Gallia- » Mon Jul 13, 2020 5:16 pm

Image

i meant this guy specifically

idk about the others but they look pretty makeshift in turret build

abercrombie literally slapped real honest battleship turrets on it

chad af

idk why it looks cool tho i think it's because the turret is all anglely

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Velkanika
Minister
 
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Founded: Sep 23, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Velkanika » Mon Jul 13, 2020 5:18 pm

Gallia- wrote:Yes after literal decades of being behind schedule and billions upon billions of self-funded investment by Lockheed Martin (as well as the numerous subsidies from the USAF and international backers) to achieve a state-of-the-art high tech manufacturing capability. So if you discount all of those sunk costs it is very much cheaper. Gripen comes out to around $130 million per fighter if you include the cost of setting up a factory t. the Brazil deal for 36 fighters and a factory. Who knows how much F-35 costs on the same grounds, but considering Gripen, being a worse F-16, is built with relatively conventional 1970's metalworking technology that is fairly simple even for actual third world countries like Brazil or India to grasp, while F-35 requires a hyper cyber age gigafactory that is difficult for even the United States to master, I suspect the difference is rather steep.

You would expect the flyaway costs to converge since they are relatively comparable aircraft, but the timeframe and investment needed in the backing infrastructure is going to be massively more capital intensive than the Gripen. Which is why third worlders like Brazil are making Gripens and not F-35s.

Grippens are mostly composites, but otherwise I agree with you. I'm mostly just amused that people still think it's inferior to the F-16 after its been proven in combat.
The necessity of a navy, in the restricted sense of the word, springs, therefore, from the existence of a peaceful shipping, and disappears with it, except in the case of a nation which has aggressive tendencies, and keeps up a navy merely as a branch of the military establishment. 1
1Alfred T. Mahan, The Influence of Sea Power Upon History, 1660-1783, 12th ed. (Boston: Little Brown and Company, 1890), 26.

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Allanea
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Capitalist Paradise

Postby Allanea » Mon Jul 13, 2020 5:20 pm

Gallia- wrote:(Image)

i meant this guy specifically

idk about the others but they look pretty makeshift in turret build

abercrombie literally slapped real honest battleship turrets on it

chad af

idk why it looks cool tho i think it's because the turret is all anglely


The first one is a legit battleship turret [or at least if Italian battleship turrets count, which is debatable].
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Triplebaconation
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Founded: Feb 22, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Triplebaconation » Mon Jul 13, 2020 5:30 pm

The Cappellini's turret was specially built and unarmored. Both ships were intended for Laguna Veneta and probably couldn't be used on rivers without tugs.
Last edited by Triplebaconation on Mon Jul 13, 2020 5:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Velkanika
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Founded: Sep 23, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Velkanika » Mon Jul 13, 2020 5:40 pm

Triplebaconation wrote:The Cappellini's turret was specially built and unarmored. Both ships were intended for Laguna Veneta and probably couldn't be used on rivers without tugs.

What was their power plant?
The necessity of a navy, in the restricted sense of the word, springs, therefore, from the existence of a peaceful shipping, and disappears with it, except in the case of a nation which has aggressive tendencies, and keeps up a navy merely as a branch of the military establishment. 1
1Alfred T. Mahan, The Influence of Sea Power Upon History, 1660-1783, 12th ed. (Boston: Little Brown and Company, 1890), 26.

Please avoid conflating my in-character role playing with what I actually believe, as these are usually quite different things.

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Austria-Bohemia-Hungary
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Mon Jul 13, 2020 5:42 pm

1. Mount four M777 on a barge
2. Roll down the danube
3. Shell Belgrade
4. ???
5. Profit?
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The Akasha Colony
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Founded: Apr 25, 2010
Left-Leaning College State

Postby The Akasha Colony » Mon Jul 13, 2020 5:44 pm

Velkanika wrote:
Triplebaconation wrote:The Cappellini's turret was specially built and unarmored. Both ships were intended for Laguna Veneta and probably couldn't be used on rivers without tugs.

What was their power plant?


A 265 horsepower steam plant driving one shaft. They barely made 3 knots.
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Velkanika
Minister
 
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Founded: Sep 23, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Velkanika » Mon Jul 13, 2020 5:52 pm

The Akasha Colony wrote:
Velkanika wrote:What was their power plant?


A 265 horsepower steam plant driving one shaft. They barely made 3 knots.

They should have just put it on a paddle boat, it would have been more useful.
The necessity of a navy, in the restricted sense of the word, springs, therefore, from the existence of a peaceful shipping, and disappears with it, except in the case of a nation which has aggressive tendencies, and keeps up a navy merely as a branch of the military establishment. 1
1Alfred T. Mahan, The Influence of Sea Power Upon History, 1660-1783, 12th ed. (Boston: Little Brown and Company, 1890), 26.

Please avoid conflating my in-character role playing with what I actually believe, as these are usually quite different things.


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Shanghai industrial complex
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Ex-Nation

Postby Shanghai industrial complex » Mon Jul 13, 2020 7:01 pm

Allanea wrote:
Purpelia wrote:[
I know what was done historically. My question is how crazy I could go with making it BIG without just looking terribly stupid. Like, I imagine something on the scale of a late WW2 destroyer (in size) would be plausible. Or hell, maybe some way of getting battleship grade guns on something on a river. Can you like imagine 12 inch guns being fired from a river boat at another river boat?

On that note I have for a long time now decided to check if I can put railroad scale guns on a river barge for WW1 use as a railroad artillery equivalent.



Image

LOL It's so cute :rofl:
多看空我 仮面ライダークウガをたくさん見てください Watch more Masked Rider Kukuku Kuuga!

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Kazarogkai
Powerbroker
 
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Founded: Jan 27, 2012
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Kazarogkai » Mon Jul 13, 2020 7:19 pm

Image

Just a map depicting the current military situation of North America in an Alt History RP That I am participating in. Just to add further and summarize:

As of now Busang is by far the strongest of the nations In the region not only via it's military strength but due to it's large demographic and economic size relative to their neighbors. Despite this they are surrounded by enemies pretty much on all sides in the form of the Mexican Empire, the Iron Order, and Revolutionary Columbia all of who are either outright hostile(in the case of the former two) or have chilly/cold relations(the latter most). The only potential friends they have are in the form of Canada who while reasonably strong at sea are limited on land. Revolutionary Columbia has recently fought a long and bloody civil war and hence will probably be out of commission for a while the Big Two threats from the south(Mexico) and the East(Adamia) have a history of conflict with Busang and seem to be gearing up for potential war on the horizon. The tension is such that this region is likely to be wear the spark will be lit for the potential Great War that is on the horizon. Only time will tell.
Last edited by Kazarogkai on Mon Jul 13, 2020 7:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Triplebaconation
Senator
 
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Founded: Feb 22, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Triplebaconation » Mon Jul 13, 2020 7:30 pm

I wonder if they're actual Adamites with the holy nudism and everything.
Proverbs 23:9.

Things are a bit larger than you appear to think, my friend.

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Purpelia
Post Czar
 
Posts: 34249
Founded: Oct 19, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Purpelia » Mon Jul 13, 2020 10:14 pm

Allanea wrote:
Purpelia wrote:[
I know what was done historically. My question is how crazy I could go with making it BIG without just looking terribly stupid. Like, I imagine something on the scale of a late WW2 destroyer (in size) would be plausible. Or hell, maybe some way of getting battleship grade guns on something on a river. Can you like imagine 12 inch guns being fired from a river boat at another river boat?

On that note I have for a long time now decided to check if I can put railroad scale guns on a river barge for WW1 use as a railroad artillery equivalent.



Image

So this is what love feels like? I want all of them. Absolutely all of them. :)
Last edited by Purpelia on Mon Jul 13, 2020 10:17 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Purpelia does not reflect my actual world views. In fact, the vast majority of Purpelian cannon is meant to shock and thus deliberately insane. I just like playing with the idea of a country of madmen utterly convinced that everyone else are the barbarians. So play along or not but don't ever think it's for real.



The above post contains hyperbole, metaphoric language, embellishment and exaggeration. It may also include badly translated figures of speech and misused idioms. Analyze accordingly.

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Republic of Penguinian Astronautia
Envoy
 
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Founded: Oct 30, 2016
Democratic Socialists

Postby Republic of Penguinian Astronautia » Tue Jul 14, 2020 5:44 am

Another question: Is it possible for an F-35 to be maintained effectively by conscripts.

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Immoren
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 65556
Founded: Mar 20, 2010
Democratic Socialists

Postby Immoren » Tue Jul 14, 2020 6:18 am

Republic of Penguinian Astronautia wrote:Another question: Is it possible for an F-35 to be maintained effectively by conscripts.


Why not?
Although they'd probably be conscripts who already have some sort of mechanic training and/or they'd have longer/longest training. (if there are several service length).
I guess F-35 is slightly more complex than F-18 and NH-90, but IRL Finland uses conscripts as assistant mechanics for aircraft with longest service time (and reserve NCO school for some reason). And for F-18 gets replaced with F-35 they'd probably continue.
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discoursedrome wrote:everyone knows that quote, "I know not what weapons World War Three will be fought, but World War Four will be fought with sticks and stones," but in a way it's optimistic and inspiring because it suggests that even after destroying civilization and returning to the stone age we'll still be sufficiently globalized and bellicose to have another world war right then and there

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Mitheldalond
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Founded: Mar 15, 2013
New York Times Democracy

Postby Mitheldalond » Tue Jul 14, 2020 9:23 am

Purpelia wrote:So this is what love feels like? I want all of them. Absolutely all of them. :)

No, this is what love feels like:
Image
HMS Lord Clive. Two 12" guns up front. That gun on the stern? That's an 18" gun. Yes, really. Her sister General Wolfe, also with an 18" gun, engaged a railroad bridge at the longest range a Royal Navy ship has ever fired on an enemy.

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