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NS Military Realism Consultation Thread Vol. 11.0

A place to put national factbooks, embassy exchanges, and other information regarding the nations of the world. [In character]

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Gallia-
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Gallia- » Sun Jul 05, 2020 12:44 pm

It depends on who is asking and what the time period is.

Modern howitzers (or gun-howitzer or whatever you want to call it) can perform better than traditional "guns" because "guns" are generally low angle (low number of angles, really) and that means you can hide behind a hill and yeet them big since you can do plunging fire and a gun can't, because guns have fixed charges. The difference between a modern howitzer and a modern gun comes down to the propellant more or less, which allows for more angle trajectories (or "zones") to be fired at a given elevation of the bore. A gun can only fire a pair of zones, usually, with one ordinary zone and one low power zone.

Dedicated guns are only preferable insofar that, because they are generally higher pressure/bigger than most howitzers, they typically have longer firing ranges. But this isn't really inherent to the gun design: 2S7, a field gun (with a high and low pressure charge), still gets out shot by G6 or M777ER, both howitzers with modular, multiple zone firing, though. You could totally make Pion a howitzer with a modular charge and it would be better for it. But that would cost money, which is something Ukraine does not have, and it needs to shoot over the Minsk ceasefire line.

Incidentally the M110/M107 combination was supposed to turn into an all M107 force, but eventually itself turned into M110A2, using lessons learned from the M107 gun explosion problem (the barrels were popping after 400-9338 [yes] rounds in Vietnam, despite having a rated life of 1,200 EFCs or something), mostly because the M110A2's 8" projectile was easier to turn into a nuclear shell and there were more 8" shells available: the reason M110 existed at all is because the US Army had been using the 8" gun since before WW1. Much like how it had been using the 155mm M107 projectile (not to be confused with the Gun, M107) from the Korean War until very recently. Ultimately the preferable solution is a single type of weapon, but people will probably continue to use 8" guns well into the future, because it's cheaper to dig something out of a depot than it is to fly all the way to South Africa and ask a factory that probably doesn't exist anymore to give you a howitzer that they forgot how to make. But why is 8" so common? In France, in America, in Russia, in China it's all the same caliber? Nothing special, at least about the caliber. Britain just made a boatload of 'em and gave them to anyone fighting the Kaiser. Everything else followed.

tl;dr The ultimate field artillery piece is basically a 6-6.1" howitzer (again, this is nothing special, France gave a lot of 155mm pieces to everyone [Russia included, naturally, and the USA] and depending on the conversion factors used ended up as 152mm or 155mm) with a high maximum operating pressure. You can call this a gun-howitzer if you want. Or you can call it a Gun+, or whatever, although since genuine howitzers (i.e. the short barreled, shrimply chodes like WW2 mountain guns) are still being made and shot at people the world over, so I imagine that gun-howitzer has more of an informative impact. It's a gun, but it shoots like a howitzer.

Perhaps we can rename howitzers like L118 to "Mortar-Howitzer" or something? That might only apply to 2B9, though, since he is both breech loading and excessively high angled (his breech does not travel much, of course). Truly the moritzer comes of age. But basically the ideal mixture is something like a 2B9, but maybe less magazine fed and more just fairly high operating pressure for certain shells (so what you'd call a "gun-mortar" but I'm calling it a "mortar-howitzer") for short-range all angle fire (including direct fire) and towed by trucks [this replaces the 120mm mortar, the 105mm howitzer, and other things], a gun-howitzer that shoots at as long a range as possible but uses modular charges for lots of angles of fire [this replaces the all field tube artilleries in general from battalion to corps], and possibly an excessively outsized mortar (subsonic low pressure) for maximum high explosive payload and plunging fire.

Galla doesn't believe in the last one. It prefers the 16" rifles it liberated from a battleship that washed up on shore once.
Last edited by Gallia- on Sun Jul 05, 2020 12:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Hrstrovokia
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Postby Hrstrovokia » Sun Jul 05, 2020 2:25 pm

Can we legit talk about the role of territorial defence units?

Like what is the role. Looked at Ukraine, Poland and Lithuania so far. Goes from local militia type light infantry set to defend local area to some sort of link for community for the military.

In Yugoslavia, they saw territorial defence like Partisans, to continue resistance in the event of invasion.

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Izukyu
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Ex-Nation

Postby Izukyu » Sun Jul 05, 2020 2:40 pm

Hrstrovokia wrote:Can we legit talk about the role of territorial defence units?

Like what is the role. Looked at Ukraine, Poland and Lithuania so far. Goes from local militia type light infantry set to defend local area to some sort of link for community for the military.

In Yugoslavia, they saw territorial defence like Partisans, to continue resistance in the event of invasion.

Just seems like a logical method to keep a larger proportion of the population trained and under arms without having a massive, bloated centralized army. Or something like that.

Perhaps allows for a more flexible response to invasion, natural disaster, terrorism, civil unrest, etc. depending on the county.

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Immoren
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Immoren » Sun Jul 05, 2020 3:15 pm

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discoursedrome wrote:everyone knows that quote, "I know not what weapons World War Three will be fought, but World War Four will be fought with sticks and stones," but in a way it's optimistic and inspiring because it suggests that even after destroying civilization and returning to the stone age we'll still be sufficiently globalized and bellicose to have another world war right then and there


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Taihei Tengoku
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Postby Taihei Tengoku » Sun Jul 05, 2020 3:41 pm

Hrstrovokia wrote:Can we legit talk about the role of territorial defence units?

They are the reificiation of the race-vitality in defending their world-historical position against the soft, comfortable embrace of annihilation in the great hegemony.

Everyone thought Ukraine had no elan in 2014 but as it turned out they have mega elan, the kiborgs will march over the forgettable graves of decadent American Episcopalian-reform Jew demographic suicide. Slava Ukraini. Ukraine will still be independent in 2200 but the United States? Who knows.
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Taihei Tengoku
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Postby Taihei Tengoku » Sun Jul 05, 2020 3:48 pm

*teleports behind u*
nothing personnel, tartar....

(i should make more posts drunk out of my mind)
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Champagne Socialist Sharifistan
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Postby Champagne Socialist Sharifistan » Sun Jul 05, 2020 11:40 pm

Do convicted drug users (who've NOT done drugs for years) make bad soldiers?
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Everything else is subject to change

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The Socialist Republic of Astrakhan
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on military

Postby The Socialist Republic of Astrakhan » Sun Jul 05, 2020 11:42 pm

i would like to say , promote military tactics and terrorism
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The Socialist Republic of Astrakhan
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Postby The Socialist Republic of Astrakhan » Sun Jul 05, 2020 11:43 pm

Champagne Socialist Sharifistan wrote:Do convicted drug users (who've NOT done drugs for years) make bad soldiers?

'' are all men pigs , no. but once under drug influence become more than monsters''
A Utopian German nation , with a constitutional Monarchy with the PM as head of executive. A nation with a melting pot of cultures , ecosystems etc.| Named after the great Astrakhan Khanate. Adios!!1

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Champagne Socialist Sharifistan
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Postby Champagne Socialist Sharifistan » Mon Jul 06, 2020 12:07 am

The Socialist Republic of Astrakhan wrote:
Champagne Socialist Sharifistan wrote:Do convicted drug users (who've NOT done drugs for years) make bad soldiers?

'' are all men pigs , no. but once under drug influence become more than monsters''


In this scenario they're not under the influence anymore
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New Vihenia
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Democratic Socialists

Postby New Vihenia » Mon Jul 06, 2020 2:17 am

Since guided or unguided shell with some sort of boosting (Basebleed, True Rocket assisted and of course my favorite, Ramjet) Exist.

Does that mean that one can actually relax the barrel length requirement for tube artillery. This in turn brings reduction in all recoilling mass and shell handling equipment. Also the shell allows even small obsolete artillery, providing they have the same caliber. To have same range as newer piece.

So new self propelled wont gonna need say.. 55 cal barrel but instead can make do with 40 or even 37 Cal yet with Ramjet shell they can still strike at 100-200 Km range.

I'm also curious if there can be a "Ramjet assisted mortar" So that even a small squad can have the range of larger piece.
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Velkanika
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Postby Velkanika » Mon Jul 06, 2020 3:08 am

Champagne Socialist Sharifistan wrote:Do convicted drug users (who've NOT done drugs for years) make bad soldiers?

It depends on what kind of person they are when they are soldiers. Drub abuse (which is not necessarily use) is indicative of an addictive personality, and that kind of person has a higher risk of substance abuse when under combat stress. The loss of fitness associated with abusing mind-altering substances is the root of why sobriety is enforced in most militaries.

So basically, you have to tell us. What does the culture of your fictional nation think about that?

New Vihenia wrote:Since guided or unguided shell with some sort of boosting (Basebleed, True Rocket assisted and of course my favorite, Ramjet) Exist.

Does that mean that one can actually relax the barrel length requirement for tube artillery. This in turn brings reduction in all recoilling mass and shell handling equipment. Also the shell allows even small obsolete artillery, providing they have the same caliber. To have same range as newer piece.

So new self propelled wont gonna need say.. 55 cal barrel but instead can make do with 40 or even 37 Cal yet with Ramjet shell they can still strike at 100-200 Km range.

I'm also curious if there can be a "Ramjet assisted mortar" So that even a small squad can have the range of larger piece.

The US Army is looking into that specifically, but literally everything about it is classified. The commentary online that I've seen has been in the same realm as the wild, inaccurate speculation passed off as informed discussion that circulated for literal decades on the F-35 program.
Last edited by Velkanika on Mon Jul 06, 2020 3:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
The necessity of a navy, in the restricted sense of the word, springs, therefore, from the existence of a peaceful shipping, and disappears with it, except in the case of a nation which has aggressive tendencies, and keeps up a navy merely as a branch of the military establishment. 1
1Alfred T. Mahan, The Influence of Sea Power Upon History, 1660-1783, 12th ed. (Boston: Little Brown and Company, 1890), 26.

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Austria-Bohemia-Hungary
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Mon Jul 06, 2020 3:12 am

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Hrythingland
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Postby Hrythingland » Mon Jul 06, 2020 3:51 am

Champagne Socialist Sharifistan wrote:Do convicted drug users (who've NOT done drugs for years) make bad soldiers?

I mean I've seen lads snorting coke before a field ex. Gave them a bit of mojo for the platoon attack.
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Purpelia
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Postby Purpelia » Mon Jul 06, 2020 4:57 am

Isn't the primary benefit of mechanized and motorized artillery the fact it can keep up with fast moving mechanized and motorized units? As in the sort of units that don't stop to dig in for a week unless they have to?
I was under the impression that mobile artillery was invented as the solution to "how do we get our fast units to have artillery support" and than the whole shoot and scoot thing came up as the answer to "but won't our mobile artillery just die if they don't dig in thus making them immobile?"
Last edited by Purpelia on Mon Jul 06, 2020 4:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
Purpelia does not reflect my actual world views. In fact, the vast majority of Purpelian cannon is meant to shock and thus deliberately insane. I just like playing with the idea of a country of madmen utterly convinced that everyone else are the barbarians. So play along or not but don't ever think it's for real.



The above post contains hyperbole, metaphoric language, embellishment and exaggeration. It may also include badly translated figures of speech and misused idioms. Analyze accordingly.

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Manokan Republic
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Postby Manokan Republic » Mon Jul 06, 2020 5:19 am

Albynau wrote:Hello guys, I appreciate the help you all have given me in the past and I have a bunch more questions:

1) Was/is the high-low mix of aircraft a thing any more? It seems to me that you'd want the most capable aircraft you can to fight peer-level adversaries, and if you need something to just drop bombs on insurgents or something you'd just use drones or armed trainers or something even cheaper than a low end fighter aircraft.

2) Is utilizing towed artillery in a conflict with a near-peer adversary suicidal? If you know you're going to receive counter-battery fire and you have to shoot and scoot in order to survive, how do you even do that with towed artillery?

3) I can understand the usage of light/medium mortars at the company level and below by being reasonably man portable and being quick to deliver support. I can understand the efficiency of 155mm howitzers at high levels of organizations. I'm having a harder time understanding the artillery in between the two extremes, like 105mm howitzers or 120mm mortars. If 155 does everything that 105 does except at a larger logistical footprint, wouldn't you just be better off with more 155s and getting rid of 105s entirely? What situation is there where you want to shoot a 105mm howitzer at something versus a 155mm?

I can kind of see a niche for 120mm mortars since you can mount it on a vehicle that has the same footprint as a 81mm mortar carrier, but similar to the above question, if all your mortars except for the light 60mm ones are going to be driven around in vehicles, why bother having a 81mm at all when you could have a 120mm one?

4) Tracks versus wheels for artillery? I understand that tracked is more expensive but has better terrain crossing capability, but I'm not sure how that translates to artillery. How often is artillery supposed to be going into rough terrain? Does it affect their ability to displace after shooting? I imagine wheeled is faster when actually moving, but don't a lot of these vehicles need to deploy ground supports in order to fire which tracked vehicles don't need to do? What kind of military would select something like a Panzerhaubitze 2000 over a CAESAR or vice versa?

5) Do dedicated reconnaissance aircraft like a RF-4E have much of a point nowadays when satellites and drones exist?

6) I don't really know how to word this question so I'll give a scenario.

Nation A is preparing for a Fulda Gap type scenario against a much stronger Nation B. Once hostilities starts it is likely Nation A's air force will be unable to hit Nation B's airfields and other strategic sites or contribute much to the ground fighting and would instead be solely devoting its attention to surviving and contesting the air space over the battlefield. Consequently, once hostilities start, instead of the air force trying to suicidally attack enemy strategic assets, the plan is just to lob as many tactical ballistic missiles at their airfields/harbors/supply depots.

I'm just basing this entirely on the idea that the missiles on the ground in hiding are less vulnerable to being blown away than aircraft trying to get through an air defense network and lots of enemy aircraft.

Thank you in advance.

You’re basically right on artillery, which is why the U.S. has phased out the 105mm and replaced it with very light versions of the 155mm. The marines also dropped the 120mm mortars they are using in large numbers to replace it with the 155 as well. The range combined with the logistical simplicity was considered worth it. However, they kept the 81mm mortar, probably due to it being small enough to be carried on foot and packing a greater punch than the 60mm, and there being a niche role for a weapon of that size, without it being too big like the 120mm was. The ammunition of the 120mm is 30 pounds, around the same weight as the 105, the only advantage being the smaller firing system, and as the 105 was replaced by the 155, there was as really no reason to have it. Cheap and effective rocket artillery also exists, which more and more is filling the gaps of standard artillery. Semi guided rockets are cheap and plentiful, as well as possess much longer ranges, have little recoil thus allowing the mounting systems to be smaller or to fire and move Quickly, and vary in power and payload, with things even like cluster bombs if you want a smaller warhead for some reason. Hence, rocket artillery can replace or augment many existing forms of artillery, and many things like the 105mm or the like can be more easily phased out by using rockets instead, in case a round of that exact size for some reason is needed.

With aircraft the role is transitioning to super high end aircraft mixed with really tiny/cheap aircraft like drones, basically fulfilling the range in capabilities in a more extreme way before, so you are right in that most traditional aircraft must be very advanced to be useful, but drones can fill in the gaps when raw numbers or something Disposable is needed.
Last edited by Manokan Republic on Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:03 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Manokan Republic
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Postby Manokan Republic » Mon Jul 06, 2020 5:32 am

Shoot and scoot ability is really important to survive, as not getting shot at all is key to avoiding harm of course. The first step is avoidance, the second is to try to absorb the damage, say via armor.

For taking ground and on fast assaults, you want mobile artillery, both for defensive mobility and to keep up with the men. Once you’ve taken ground however, you can afford to dig in, and for this you want far cheaper and prolific forms of equipment, thus making towed artillery logical. Towing it gets it to the battlefield, where it will remain for a long time, so it is mobile, but just meant to be set up in a more permanent position, that is protected by relatively inexpensive earth mounds designed to stop bullets and artillery. In theory it can also be bigger than mobile artillery, for example in WWII there were very few 155mm mobile artillery pieces, but thousands of 105mm, due to the larger size, particularly with the 105mm priest, making lighter artillery more useful if it could be readily mounted and fired from vehicles. In the modern day ultra large artillery is generally not used and even then what exists is generally mobile or mounted on a vehicle (due to the need for an autoloading mechanism given the weight of ammunition and difficulty aiming the system without a motor), so this is less of an issue, with the main Issue today being cost. So, emplaced artillery is used to capture and hold ground, helping infantry within a sector that’s been captured clear out an area, where as mobile artillery is used more sparingly given its higher cost and rarity to help take ground in an assault. The purpose of slower moving artillery, although being mounted on or towed behind a vehicle in a cheaper fashion can still be extremely useful, is really to be cheaper and support your men in your own well defended territory, as opposed to attack the enemy on the assault. You could argue that towed artillery is more for defensive operations or against weakened enemies, and mobile artillery is for offense.
Last edited by Manokan Republic on Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:01 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Gallia-
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Gallia- » Mon Jul 06, 2020 5:49 am

New Vihenia wrote:Since guided or unguided shell with some sort of boosting (Basebleed, True Rocket assisted and of course my favorite, Ramjet) Exist.

Does that mean that one can actually relax the barrel length requirement for tube artillery. This in turn brings reduction in all recoilling mass and shell handling equipment. Also the shell allows even small obsolete artillery, providing they have the same caliber. To have same range as newer piece.

So new self propelled wont gonna need say.. 55 cal barrel but instead can make do with 40 or even 37 Cal yet with Ramjet shell they can still strike at 100-200 Km range.

I'm also curious if there can be a "Ramjet assisted mortar" So that even a small squad can have the range of larger piece.


I wouldn't but I am also a size queen. You can probably do a shorter barrel with a larger chamber volume and higher operating pressure though. A falling block howitzer can be built (AS90) and howitzers don't operate at tremendous pressures like tank guns, so there should be no issues, even if you were just improving propellants in the charges rather than increasing their quantity (although more charges is how M777ER is shooting so far). Hypothetically L/40 should work for stabilization too, if you're still going to do the shoot-on-the-move howitzer, since that is about how long the various superguns for MBTs were going to be, and balancing issues were eventually solved with those guys like on the Nota and ATACS gun tanks.

I dunno if the higher elevation would make balancing harder while moving over terrain though.

I think rockets, or wings, would be better for mortars. Mortars aren't firing supersonic projectiles so the ramjet would need a lot of fuel, and it would destroy the mortar's only advantage over howitzer: his greater HE fraction.
Last edited by Gallia- on Mon Jul 06, 2020 5:54 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Champagne Socialist Sharifistan
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Ex-Nation

Postby Champagne Socialist Sharifistan » Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:06 am

A nation which partly represents my views.
Founder of the Traditionalist Military Alliance:https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=493756
The Turkish War of Independence and everything before along with 2014 modernisation are set in stone.
Everything else is subject to change

Black Lives Matter!

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Nationalist Northumbria
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Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Nationalist Northumbria » Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:27 am

Champagne Socialist Sharifistan wrote:Does this make sense?:
https://iiwiki.us/wiki/Sharifistani_military_doctrine

you kill your own people to save money? Really, Azad? :eyebrow:
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Champagne Socialist Sharifistan
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Ex-Nation

Postby Champagne Socialist Sharifistan » Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:54 am

Nationalist Northumbria wrote:
Champagne Socialist Sharifistan wrote:Does this make sense?:
https://iiwiki.us/wiki/Sharifistani_military_doctrine

you kill your own people to save money? Really, Azad? :eyebrow:

It doesn't represent my views,
it's a parody of my views.
A nation which partly represents my views.
Founder of the Traditionalist Military Alliance:https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=493756
The Turkish War of Independence and everything before along with 2014 modernisation are set in stone.
Everything else is subject to change

Black Lives Matter!

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The Akasha Colony
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Left-Leaning College State

Postby The Akasha Colony » Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:07 am

Champagne Socialist Sharifistan wrote:
Nationalist Northumbria wrote:you kill your own people to save money? Really, Azad? :eyebrow:

It doesn't represent my views,
it's a parody of my views.


Parodies are supposed to be funny.
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Champagne Socialist Sharifistan
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Ex-Nation

Postby Champagne Socialist Sharifistan » Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:09 am

The Akasha Colony wrote:
Champagne Socialist Sharifistan wrote:It doesn't represent my views,
it's a parody of my views.


Parodies are supposed to be funny.

Finding things funny requires a sense of humour.
A nation which partly represents my views.
Founder of the Traditionalist Military Alliance:https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=493756
The Turkish War of Independence and everything before along with 2014 modernisation are set in stone.
Everything else is subject to change

Black Lives Matter!

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