NS Military Realism Consultation Thread Vol. 11.0

[Triplebaconation]

random question time:
How many tractor-borne infantry brigades does your fictional armee sport?

0. Why use tractors when you can use trucks, humvee/Tigr and APCe...

You'd probably have to think a bit to answer that.

[Theodosiya]

0. Why use tractors when you can use trucks, humvee/Tigr and APCe...

You'd probably have to think a bit to answer that.

You can use tractors to pull stuff. Should've said that. But to carry infantry? Better use trucks, at least.

[Questarian New Yorkshire]

You can use tractors to pull stuff.

That's literally one of the most important and useful things about automation dude

[Questarian New Yorkshire]

look at this dank tractor

[Theodosiya]

look at this dank tractor
(Image)

Well, when you already have BTR-60/70/80, BMP-1/2/3, Ural/Kamaz trucks, GAZ Tigr, MTLB seems somewhat redundant, except for pulling stuffs. You can use it to transport towed guns and its crew. Maybe few other things. But to motorize/mechanize infantry, there's better options already.

[Immoren]

TFW I'm bogged down in my Tigr as my enemy maneuvers on me on MT-LB over bog that I thought was impassable.

[Gallia-]

mt-lbu is a cute silly boi

[Theodosiya]

TFW I'm bogged down in my Tigr as my enemy maneuvers on me on MT-LB over bog that I thought was impassable.

How about the BMP-1/2/3, then?

[The New California Republic]

mt-lbu is a cute silly boi

Versatile boy, used for many different roles.

[Taihei Tengoku]

So think of it like this... I am Yugoslavia so I wanna domestically make an amphibious warfare ship any tips (I am talking about a reunified Yugoslavia that possesses all the technology of Bosnia, Serbia, Croatia, Slovenia, FYROM, Montenegro and Kosovo)

Build an LST and an airport

[Triplebaconation]

A Scandinavian country with universal conscription obviously couldn't give its entire reserves armored vehicles.

Tractors were ideal for improving the mobility of their light infantry. They were cheap, plentiful, had better cross-country mobility than trucks, and many rural conscripts already knew how to drive them.

In Sweden they were commonly used with bicycle infantry. The tractor would pull a wagon with a platoon's heavier gear, then a string of bicyclists holding on to a rope.

[The Manticoran Empire]

So think of it like this... I am Yugoslavia so I wanna domestically make an amphibious warfare ship any tips (I am talking about a reunified Yugoslavia that possesses all the technology of Bosnia, Serbia, Croatia, Slovenia, FYROM, Montenegro and Kosovo)

Why though? The primary use of amphibious warfare ships is to support ground operations hundreds or thousands of miles from home. The majority of potential rivals for Yugoslavia share a land border with Yugoslavia and the ones that don't have much stronger economies. Boats are expensive after all.

[Triplebaconation]

So think of it like this... I am Yugoslavia so I wanna domestically make an amphibious warfare ship any tips (I am talking about a reunified Yugoslavia that possesses all the technology of Bosnia, Serbia, Croatia, Slovenia, FYROM, Montenegro and Kosovo)

Why though? The primary use of amphibious warfare ships is to support ground operations hundreds or thousands of miles from home. The majority of potential rivals for Yugoslavia share a land border with Yugoslavia and the ones that don't have much stronger economies. Boats are expensive after all.

[The Manticoran Empire]

Why though? The primary use of amphibious warfare ships is to support ground operations hundreds or thousands of miles from home. The majority of potential rivals for Yugoslavia share a land border with Yugoslavia and the ones that don't have much stronger economies. Boats are expensive after all.

This assumes the EU exists in this universe where Yugoslavia reunited.

[Triplebaconation]

That's exactly why I looked at his factbook and a few of his RP posts instead of assuming.

[The Manticoran Empire]

That's exactly why I looked at his factbook and a few of his RP posts instead of assuming.

Fair enough. Does that happen to explain how all the people got over the ethnic cleansings and genocides of the collapse?

[United Earthlings]

random question time:
How many tractor-borne infantry brigades does your fictional armee sport?

O, unless you count these as tractors.

So think of it like this... I am Yugoslavia so I wanna domestically make an amphibious warfare ship any tips (I am talking about a reunified Yugoslavia that possesses all the technology of Bosnia, Serbia, Croatia, Slovenia, FYROM, Montenegro and Kosovo)

Depending on how large and sophisticated your nation’s current ship building capacity is, if this is your nation’s first attempt to build a large amphibious warship something like a LSD {Landing Ship Dock}, ordering a foreign design from a friendly naval power that permits you to build the design domestically is probably a good place to start from.

[Triplebaconation]

That's exactly why I looked at his factbook and a few of his RP posts instead of assuming.

Fair enough. Does that happen to explain how all the people got over the ethnic cleansings and genocides of the collapse?

The point of divergence takes place well before that.

For the purposes of the question, it doesn't matter if the Care Bears floated over on clouds and united the country with the power of friendship. Something like an LST is cheap and versatile enough to be useful in all but the smallest navies, even if they don't have pretensions of invading their "rivals."

I'd suggest the Damen LST series for inspiration:

https://products.damen.com/en/ranges/la ... nsport-120

LSD {Landing Ship Dock}

Utterly pointless for his nation.

[Socialist Macronesia]

What would be the best way to move troops onto a hostile island if you are an island as well for short, medium, and long distances?

Also, what advantages do caseless and regular ammo have?

[Spirit of Hope]

What would be the best way to move troops onto a hostile island if you are an island as well for short, medium, and long distances?

Helicopters, air drop, landing craft, hovercraft, and amphibious transport vehicles are all options that can be used, ideally it would probably be a mix of all of these, combined with air and gun fire support. The question of the distance determines where you may be launching the various vehicles from. If you are close to the island you want to get troops to, you can potentially launch all from your own territory, as you move further away you need specialized ships to carry your vehicles to where they can launch from, these ships go by various names but all serve the same general function move landing troops and their vehicles to where they can be used.

Also, what advantages do caseless and regular ammo have?

Casless ammunition reduces the weight of the ammunition, meaning more of it can be carried for the same weight or that the same load of ammunition can be carried with a lighter weapon. However casless ammunition is more fragile, and presents engineering issues for designing a firearm to use it, issues such as feeding, ejecting defective rounds, and heat build up in the chamber.

[Questarian New Yorkshire]

Essay competition 1:

Discuss the utility of the IAI Harpy 1 and 2 drone-attack SEAD systems on countries which aren't third world.

Could Harpy 1 and 2, or an analagous system (if choosing an analagous system explain the differences) be used effectively to degrade battlefield tier (ie anti-helicopter) air defence systems employed and manned by NATO, Russia, China, to the extent that attack helicopters or other attack aviation like drones and low-flying aircraft could cause significant damage?

[Purpelia]

This assumes the EU exists in this universe where Yugoslavia reunited.

Even without the EU there is OTAN to contend with. And even without OTAN in the game (at this point we are really diverging from reality) there is still the issue that really the only targets Yugoslavia has for naval invasions are countries in the North Mediterranean and potentially Italy. Although there is a land border with Italy. Not unless he also diverges to the point where he claims his economy has risen 10 times over the historical and can support a proper battle fleet with aircraft carriers and stuff on the scale of america or the SSSR. And if he does than well all bets are off really. Because there are plenty of countries that should by that same logic be able to counter him with equal measure.

[Gallia-]

It doesn't allow helicopters to work in air defended environments: it completely replaces their role for substantially less expenditure in resources. If someone starts making a jet powered Predator that can carry 8 Hellfires, expect helicopter gunships to be sent to the scrapping yard and whatever few remaining ones to be converted to anti-tank reserves or some other "defensive" use, if not outright tossed away.

Right now the only problem with most drones is that they carry relatively few weapons. You need 8 Predators to equal one Apache, and 4 Reapers for the same. This is why gunships stick around I guess but once that is solved there is just not much room for an attack helicopter left. The niche of "high speed, responsive (i.e. random takeoff positions) anti-tank platoon/company" remains, but this will never be utilized if tank fleets continue to shrink and operate at increasingly dispersed distances.

This applies equally to loitering weapons like Harpy and actual small jet aircraft like Predator. Whether that means development of new attack helicopters, like the dreaded "FARA", will simply cease and old designs like AH-64 will continue to fly, or all attack helicopters are binned, is the real open question. I guess both are plausible depending on the resources available. But developing a new attack helicopter after around 2010 or so is kinda stupid. Drones work better in the same role and stuff like SATCOM and whatever are so ubiquitous now that even third world countries can maintain uplinks with them.

Incidentally I guess this will work in reverse too: air defense vehicles with local guidance radars will probably be replaced by space-based radars guiding missiles launched from trucks for most ADA. The line of sight limitation of air defense systems is notoriously relevant, especial in mountainous terrains like Syria where drones armed with Hellfires can and have repeatedly played chicken with Pantsir and won consistently. A space based radar network takes one of the main ELINT systems out of the fight (you can no longer locate a air defense battery by its emissions) while also alleviating one of the main problems of air defense vehicles in the first place, their reliance on high silhouette, long LOS positioning. So aircraft ambushes will be easier and it will become harder to operate in defended airspace than it ever was, really, unless you can find a way to neutralize space based fire control radars.

It won't bring back helicopters though, since their high radar signatures will give them away. It might keep stealth drones like Q-222 on the battlefield, though.

[The Technocratic Syndicalists]

Essay competition 1:

Discuss the utility of the IAI Harpy 1 and 2 drone-attack SEAD systems on countries which aren't third world.

Could Harpy 1 and 2, or an analagous system (if choosing an analagous system explain the differences) be used effectively to degrade battlefield tier (ie anti-helicopter) air defence systems employed and manned by NATO, Russia, China, to the extent that attack helicopters or other attack aviation like drones and low-flying aircraft could cause significant damage?

[Socialist Macronesia]

Essay competition 1:

Discuss the utility of the IAI Harpy 1 and 2 drone-attack SEAD systems on countries which aren't third world.

Could Harpy 1 and 2, or an analagous system (if choosing an analagous system explain the differences) be used effectively to degrade battlefield tier (ie anti-helicopter) air defence systems employed and manned by NATO, Russia, China, to the extent that attack helicopters or other attack aviation like drones and low-flying aircraft could cause significant damage?

I'd say that while they would be somewhat effective, there is an underlying problem with helicopters: man portable air defence. If you take a look at the Vietnam War or the Russians' war in Afghanistan, you'll notice that the humble MANPADS was very effective, even against non-helicopter aircraft that flew very low, such as strike fighters. Now, instead of an aircraft that can go up to or close to Mach 1 and rotate on all 3 axis, you have a slow, lower aircraft that can't move as safely, and is a lot less resilient. On top of that, AA guns or anti helicopter weapon vehicles are big and easily seen, although they can still be camoflaged. However, a single man can carry a MANPADS and never been seen until it's too late. Drones are better, but most are still prop driven and operate at low speeds.

See, even in a first world country you are going to see civilian fighters in captured land. If they get their hands on enemy weapons (or yours) then they can inflict considerable damage on your aircraft, troops, or supplies. Your enemy will see your heavy helicopter use and see your loitering missiles and begin using heavy amounts of MANPADS, countering your weapons and reducing your effectiveness. The enemy will then begin to use asymetrical tactics and soon you will be losing a ton of helis and drones.

The Harpy seems good for what it does, but I don't think it will change much. Air defence will be made to counter them, ECMs will be used against them, they will be hacked and crashed into strategic targets, and so on and so forth.

In conclusion, although the munitions would be good to suppress those of an army of equal size and training, it wouldn't be able to stand up to asymetrical warefare, which nowadays is the most common. You opponents will learn to just send a few men out with launchers and destroy your helicopters and drones. I would use the Harpies in addition to a balanced force, rather than bump up heli and drone use.

Thank you for coming to my TED talk.