NS Military Realism Consultation Thread Vol. 11.0

[Republic of Penguinian Astronautia]

I have seen a lot of speculation about how in the future, there could be starlink scale satellite networks capable of constantly tracking ships at sea, allowing precise targeting with long range missiles, or more conventional types of attacks . If this is occurs, will maritime patrol aircraft be necessary? Additionally, how can this be countered? Is there a viable way to hide surface ships from such a threat? Should they be made faster, more heavily armored, or do we just stick to what works and try using increased information to your advantage? I can see more utilization of submarines. A weird idea I've had: would it be useful to have (stealthy?) seaplanes to resupply nuclear submarines operating far from base.

[Spirit of Hope]

I have seen a lot of speculation about how in the future, there could be starlink scale satellite networks capable of constantly tracking ships at sea, allowing precise targeting with long range missiles, or more conventional types of attacks . If this is occurs, will maritime patrol aircraft be necessary? Additionally, how can this be countered? Is there a viable way to hide surface ships from such a threat? Should they be made faster, more heavily armored, or do we just stick to what works and try using increased information to your advantage? I can see more utilization of submarines. A weird idea I've had: would it be useful to have (stealthy?) seaplanes to resupply nuclear submarines operating far from base.

Building a starlink network that can constantly follow ships would be rather expensive, what you would be more likely to see is the launch of a short term low orbit satellite to recon an area and vector missiles.

Maritime patrol aircraft will still be necessary to help hunt submarines.

It can be countered by disguising ships in normal traffic lanes, reducing electromagnetic signature, and building warships that look like non military shipping. You could also look at ways to eliminate enemy satellites, either through direct attacks on the satellites, their link sights, or through indirect attack vectors.

Faster won't help much if the enemy can constantly track and provide updated targeting info, armor doesn't do a lot to keep a ship fighting. What would probably be best is things like increasing soft and hard countermeasures and strong deception plans.

Nuclear submarines have incredibly long duration times, there would be little need for them to resupply via seaplane.

[New Vihenia]

I have seen a lot of speculation about how in the future, there could be starlink scale satellite networks capable of constantly tracking ships at sea, allowing precise targeting with long range missiles, or more conventional types of attacks .

Trends are moving that way. Even current Starlink may have potential of being militerized, not truly providing radar or optical/visual intelligence but as ESM and the fact one can have more precise mid course update for its weapon.

Dedicated "Starlink" like Military sat however will be fortunately quite limited, especially if Optical reconnaissance is desired, the Satellite size will be the function of required resolution, the better the bigger the Sat will be. Higher orbital plane also have the same but more drastic effect.

When such network are online however maybe yes, one may no longer necessarily need a dedicated maritime patrol. Weapons can be a Hypersonic missiles for means of rapid reaction "effector"

If this is occurs, will maritime patrol aircraft be necessary? Additionally, how can this be countered? Is there a viable way to hide surface ships from such a threat? Should they be made faster, more heavily armored, or do we just stick to what works and try using increased information to your advantage? I can see more utilization of submarines. A weird idea I've had: would it be useful to have (stealthy?) seaplanes to resupply nuclear submarines operating far from base.

Submarines will be far more prevalent. While surface ships may operate with powerful jammer or ASAT, cyber attacks will be far more prevalent to hide movement of surface forces, we may also see a real effort of denying LEO orbit by Ionospheric Heating, making the Satellites to decay faster.

[Gallia-]

our haarp batteries will blot out the sun

[United Earthlings]

For example, I understand that you actually mean "minutiae."

Crap, sorry about the typo.

If your goal is to sound like a middle manager armed with an MBA from DeVry and PowerPoint 97 it's fine. Otherwise, it's stilted, grammatically clumsy, and unclear.

Maybe it’s just me, but I feel like you just described all of academia.

Something like "Static forces are easily bypassed or targeted and destroyed" would be far better. It's clear, concise, and targeted to an audience who most likely doesn't sit around reading monographs about the OODA loop from the transformation era.

You bring up an interesting point. It is better here that the vocabulary be adjusted to current and/or future individuals unfamiliar with the various ideas and concepts that arise in these threads from time to time or should said individuals be introduced to the complexity of the language and their associated concepts immediately even if that may result in the vocabulary coming off in your own words as “stilted, grammatically clumsy and unclear”?

[Gallia-]

Use words better.

[Austrasien]

I have seen a lot of speculation about how in the future, there could be starlink scale satellite networks capable of constantly tracking ships at sea, allowing precise targeting with long range missiles, or more conventional types of attacks . If this is occurs, will maritime patrol aircraft be necessary? Additionally, how can this be countered? Is there a viable way to hide surface ships from such a threat? Should they be made faster, more heavily armored, or do we just stick to what works and try using increased information to your advantage? I can see more utilization of submarines. A weird idea I've had: would it be useful to have (stealthy?) seaplanes to resupply nuclear submarines operating far from base.

The main "counter" really is to take the fight to the enemies center-of-gravity: Outer space. At some point, it will simply become practically impossible to fight and win a war with only air/land/sea forces. Even leaving space surveillance aside submarines are likely to be the backbone of future fleets. In the not too distant future submarines will shed one of their principal limitations, limited ability to communicate while submerged. And it can be reasonably expected they will continue to increase their maximum silent speeds.

[New Vihenia]

The main "counter" really is to take the fight to the enemies center-of-gravity: Outer space. At some point, it will simply become practically impossible to fight and win a war with only air/land/sea forces. Even leaving space surveillance aside submarines are likely to be the backbone of future fleets.

Case for Vertical Gun with ramjet shell.

[Theodosiya]

I have seen a lot of speculation about how in the future, there could be starlink scale satellite networks capable of constantly tracking ships at sea, allowing precise targeting with long range missiles, or more conventional types of attacks . If this is occurs, will maritime patrol aircraft be necessary? Additionally, how can this be countered? Is there a viable way to hide surface ships from such a threat? Should they be made faster, more heavily armored, or do we just stick to what works and try using increased information to your advantage? I can see more utilization of submarines. A weird idea I've had: would it be useful to have (stealthy?) seaplanes to resupply nuclear submarines operating far from base.

The main "counter" really is to take the fight to the enemies center-of-gravity: Outer space. At some point, it will simply become practically impossible to fight and win a war with only air/land/sea forces. Even leaving space surveillance aside submarines are likely to be the backbone of future fleets. In the not too distant future submarines will shed one of their principal limitations, limited ability to communicate while submerged. And it can be reasonably expected they will continue to increase their maximum silent speeds.

Space Marines intensifies...

[Champagne Socialist Sharifistan]

Are foreign legions ever loyal?

[Spirit of Hope]

Are foreign legions ever loyal?

What type of foreign legion? How are they recruited, trained, retained, and treated?

Depending on all of that they can be very loyal to ready to betray you at the drop of a hat.

[Gallia-]

The main "counter" really is to take the fight to the enemies center-of-gravity: Outer space. At some point, it will simply become practically impossible to fight and win a war with only air/land/sea forces. Even leaving space surveillance aside submarines are likely to be the backbone of future fleets.

Case for Vertical Gun with ramjet shell.

I feel like that's just an extremely inefficient missile launcher really. Why bother firing it out of a cannon at all?

Trident II > Babylon Gun.

[Triplebaconation]

If your goal is to sound like a middle manager armed with an MBA from DeVry and PowerPoint 97 it's fine. Otherwise, it's stilted, grammatically clumsy, and unclear.

Maybe it’s just me, but I feel like you just described all of academia.

The primary goal of most academic writing is to impress a tenure committee afraid of appearing foolish by admitting confusion, not to convey useful information.

Something like "Static forces are easily bypassed or targeted and destroyed" would be far better. It's clear, concise, and targeted to an audience who most likely doesn't sit around reading monographs about the OODA loop from the transformation era.

You bring up an interesting point. It is better here that the vocabulary be adjusted to current and/or future individuals unfamiliar with the various ideas and concepts that arise in these threads from time to time or should said individuals be introduced to the complexity of the language and their associated concepts immediately even if that may result in the vocabulary coming off in your own words as “stilted, grammatically clumsy and unclear”?

Jargon is most appropriate as a compact language when all parties have a similar level of understanding. In most circumstances plain English is better.

When discussing the OODA loop plain English is almost always best because it's one of the most misunderstood concepts around, partly because of the tendency of consultants and middle-managers to ignore the concepts behind it in favor of mystical buzzwords which disguise their lack of agency.

"Getting in their OODA loop" (implying making decisions or simply moving faster) is one of those mystical buzzwords that almost inevitably lead to misunderstanding Boyd's thesis.

[The Manticoran Empire]

Are foreign legions ever loyal?

Yes. France has depended upon the French Foreign Legion since 1831 and as of 2008, members of the Foreign Legion hail from 140 different nations. Of course, it helps if you treat the foreigners well so.

[Radictistan]

Are foreign legions ever loyal?

Yes. France has depended upon the French Foreign Legion since 1831

Except for that one time in 1961 when they tried to overthrow the government, but I suppose an Annualized Coup Risk (ACR) of .529% is pretty good.

[The Manticoran Empire]

Yes. France has depended upon the French Foreign Legion since 1831

Except for that one time in 1961 when they tried to overthrow the government, but I suppose an Annualized Coup Risk (ACR) of .529% is pretty good.

Sure. After all, you risk a military coup by simply HAVING a military in the first place.

[United Earthlings]

Use words better.

Wisely they expressed
Could the word be better for everyone knew
That the bird was the word

[New Vihenia]

I feel like that's just an extremely inefficient missile launcher really. Why bother firing it out of a cannon at all?

Trident II > Babylon Gun.

Ye, not every sub can carry trident tho :x

[Gallia-]

I feel like that's just an extremely inefficient missile launcher really. Why bother firing it out of a cannon at all?

Trident II > Babylon Gun.

Ye, not every sub can carry trident tho :x

True but a vertical gun probably takes up more space than 3-4 Tridents in little launch modules though.

774 can take Trident by form factor and that is basically a 688 with a new anechoic coating and some touch screens.

Unless you can make the vertical gun really little (like Gotland or Blekinge class SSK) then I don't really see the value over an SLBM tho.

[The Corparation]

Ye, not every sub can carry trident tho :x

True but a vertical gun probably takes up more space than 3-4 Tridents in little launch modules though.

774 can take Trident by form factor and that is basically a 688 with a new anechoic coating and some touch screens.

Unless you can make the vertical gun really little (like Gotland or Blekinge class SSK) then I don't really see the value over an SLBM tho.

You could in theory fit a vertical gun in the same foot print as a trident. There was a proposal awhile back for a compact vertical gun which would fit in a trident tube so that Ohios could do NGFS.


Edit: Not saying anyone should want to do this but in theory someone could.

[Gallia-]

A vertical gun in a missile tube isn't going to reach orbit no matter how big a rocket motor you slap on it.

[Purpelia]

Yes. France has depended upon the French Foreign Legion since 1831

Except for that one time in 1961 when they tried to overthrow the government, but I suppose an Annualized Coup Risk (ACR) of .529% is pretty good.

Honestly I'd say that coup was their patriotic duty. I mean, it's not like they tried to bring France down or something. They were defending what was left of the French empire from the weakness and moral defeatism of its people. Had they succeeded maybe France would now be leading Europe instead of marching down the road to becoming a province of Germany along side the rest of us.

[New Vihenia]

It's not gonna need to reach orbit but one can potentially use it as a say.. artillery fire support the same manner of what USN think for Zummwalt.

[Kassaran]

Except for that one time in 1961 when they tried to overthrow the government, but I suppose an Annualized Coup Risk (ACR) of .529% is pretty good.

Honestly I'd say that coup was their patriotic duty. I mean, it's not like they tried to bring France down or something. They were defending what was left of the French empire from the weakness and moral defeatism of its people. Had they succeeded maybe France would now be leading Europe instead of marching down the road to becoming a province of Germany along side the rest of us.

Hey, leave the Yanks out of it. I can't count the last time the Jerries did something we actually supported except recovery from both of their world conquest attempts.

It's not gonna need to reach orbit but one can potentially use it as a say.. artillery fire support the same manner of what USN think for Zummwalt.

Why would you need artillery fire support from a submarine you can put missiles in? I think the problem is coming from far too much multi-role, not enough specialists.

[Gallia-]

It's not gonna need to reach orbit but one can potentially use it as a say.. artillery fire support the same manner of what USN think for Zummwalt.

Oh sure.

If you can make the missile-shells fairly little then it should have higher ammo density than a rocket battery. Cheaper than bringing two subs.