NS Military Realism Consultation Thread Vol. 11.0

[Gallia-]

What about them?

[Kedri]

I'm trying to flesh out the Kedrian military some more. Nothing's set in stone yet, but I'm kicking around a few ideas, and want to see what y'all think. These might be dumb questions.

Here are the proposed branches of the Kedrian Defense Force:

-Army
-Air Force
-Navy/Coast Guard
-Privateers

I'm unsure whether I need both a navy and a coast guard. Since the Kedrian military is solely concerned with national defense and has no plans to actually invade other countries, I'm wondering if it could get by with just a coast guard?

The privateers are a special branch that specialize in privateering (obviously), but I don't know how profitable that would be in war or if it would provoke the ire of other countries.

I didn't list them, but there's also militias that serve as an emergency force in case the military lacks enough people, funding or is unprepared.

Drop the Air Force and reassimilate it into the Army as Army Aviation. Also, turn your Army into a Homeguard or something, because they're not really going anywhere, you realistically don't need them if Self-defense is what you want. Navy/Coast Guard can be gutted too, you'd probably have a handful of token submarines you keep on hand for training and military exercises, but the majority of your prowess would probably be a discount cruiser from a nation desperately looking to get rid of old inventory. You don't need, nor should you use privateers. That's how you get invaded, flat out. If you're countering piracy, that's what your coast guard is for.

Mostly good.
You can't get by on just a coast guard though because you need a Navy to deal with pirates.

Untrue. A Coast Guard can entirely usurp the navy as you don't need to project power, but rather just defend territorial waters from pirates.

I should go into a bit more detail. The country is archipelago, so it obviously relies on the sea, which is why I emphasize the navy. The privateers would only be used during war.

[Gallia-]

Privateers are dumb.

It hasn't worked for Somalia, why would it work for anyone else?

[Kassaran]

I should go into a bit more detail. The country is archipelago, so it obviously relies on the sea, which is why I emphasize the navy. The privateers would only be used during war.

I run an island archipelago-style country. I have a Seaguard which is in its mandate a Navy, because should it be called upon to do so, it will enter enemy waters and project Kassaran military might. The Seaguard Reserves act as a coast guard, which acts as a peacekeeping and anti-piracy force, enforcing maritime customs and law, while additionally maintaining Kassaran sovereignty in our Territorial waters.

Privateers are effectively a merchant marines and they'd be a private organization like any government contractor in an off-season is what I'm getting. This means you should not list them under your official branches of government because their resources, property, and manning will not be set by government funding or mandates, but rather by shareholders and private entities.

[Gallia-]

"Seaguard" certainly sounds like it has a powerful mightiness.

Privateers are something weak navies like France use against extremely powerful enemies they can't fight directly. Then they lose because they become isolated and get choked to death by a navy because they never actually stopped the navy. Stealing merchant ships is fine for annoyance and small wars but it's not going to stop anyone except maybe a single city that can be easily blockaded by the police.

[Kassaran]

"Seaguard" certainly sounds like it has a powerful mightiness.

Hence why the name sticks, even if it's my second-smallest branch of the armed forces. The only one smaller is the Cyberguard...

[Ideal Britain]

Privateers are dumb.

It hasn't worked for Somalia, why would it work for anyone else?

Privateers are not dumb, at least in NS.
Sometimes you need or at least want people who you won't need in peacetime,
For short wars or anti-slavery operations.

The World Assembly allows them despite , as I understand it,
A ban in IRL international law.

[Gallia-]

If you're using privateers instead of your navy then you don't have a navy.

Seizing ships is fine but that's a job for a coast guard or something, really, and only tiny countries with no ability to fight the people they're attacking actually do it: Somalia, Iran, Khmer Rouge, and North Korea come to mind.

Any merchant attacks are secondary to a navy's job of actually beating the other navy.

[Ideal Britain]

If you're using privateers instead of your navy then you don't have a navy.

Seizing ships is fine but that's a job for a coast guard or something, really, and only tiny countries with no ability to fight the people they're attacking actually do it: Somalia, Iran, Khmer Rouge, and North Korea come to mind.

Any merchant attacks are secondary to a navy's job of actually beating the other navy.

In Saranidia privateers are mostly used to disrupt arms shipments or free slaves.

[Kedri]

Here's my idea, then.

The navy is the primary fighting force in Kedri and is also involved in policing and search and rescues. The other branch is the coast guard, which is actually amphibious, as members of it are trained to fight on both land and coastal waters.

[Kassaran]

If you're using privateers instead of your navy then you don't have a navy.

Seizing ships is fine but that's a job for a coast guard or something, really, and only tiny countries with no ability to fight the people they're attacking actually do it: Somalia, Iran, Khmer Rouge, and North Korea come to mind.

Any merchant attacks are secondary to a navy's job of actually beating the other navy.

In Saranidia privateers are mostly used to disrupt arms shipments or free slaves.

Okay, so first things first, that's an NS nation, not a Real nation. As the NSMRC thread, the advice in respect to real-world experiences and doctrines.

Second, privateers were a good idea when private citizens could afford to own and run ships of war. Now, they're not so much because the most that a private citizen likely would own in the way of ocean-going tonnage would be freighters which would be chartered under a merchant marine force.

If you're going to point out NS nations, then I'll give you the honest-to-goodness NS truth. If you use privateers, someone else is going to buy them up first if they operate on a mercenary mindset, or they're going to be sunk/impounded/dock-locked in another country's ports.

Let's say I want to attack your island. First I'm going to track down every private citizen who owns a military capable boat, go over their private dossiers, find the ones that look particularly suspect, and likely send in the Department of Federal Intelligence to do some shady wetwork or black ops shit. Stuff like kidnappings, assassination, or flat out murders in broad daylight to get rid of potential privateers that would bolster your fleet. Next I'm going to find the ones I couldn't get to and weigh them on a threat scale, from Mercantile to Nuclear Attack Submarine. Anything higher than Destroyer get's a face full of AShM's and anything beneath that gets iron-bombs. That's if I can't get to them through some subversive means before hostilities break out.

The end result? Privateers get the idea that working for your nation gets them an extra-special bullseye painted on their backs. Sure, some people may complain about DFI extrajudicial involvement in foreign lands, but we'll just give the populace more happy night-night juice, put something entertaining on, and smooth the necessary ruffled feathers to get back to regular trade again.

EDIT:

Here's my idea, then.

The navy is the primary fighting force in Kedri and is also involved in policing and search and rescues. The other branch is the coast guard, which is actually amphibious, as members of it are trained to fight on both land and coastal waters.

That sounds like the Marine Corps with extra steps...

[The Dolphin Isles]

If you are a small nation only worried about self-defense, have a navy and no coast guard. Just use your navy for what a coast guard would do. This is what a lot of countries do. Have them work with your border control, conduct safety and regulation checks on vessels, interdict smugglers, etc.. As for your amphibious coast guard training, this sounds like a marine unit. Either you can make it so (You could even keep the name) or you can transfer amphibious capabilities to a small part of your army like Australia is currently doing.

As for privateers, there isn't really a good argument for them. Somali piracy dropped almost entirely to zero in 1-2 years once world governments made a solid effort to police the area with their navies and coast guards. If you attack any country's commerce, they will be very quick to react and will stomp out the pirate activity mercilessly. If these pirates are discovered to be state-sponsored, expect sanctions similar to those put on North Korea and Iran.

Additionally, pirate activity is known for overseas endurance. Don't get me wrong, those Somali skiffs are able to take pirates out well into the entrance of the Indian Ocean, but pirates have to return to port after every run either for replenishment or because modern piracy necessitates you take the whole ship and its crew to a friendly port to ransom it all off. Where will you base your pirates out of and where will they do such ransoming activities? No foreign port will allow them in because then cargo ships will blackball them. If you do it out of your own port, international trade will do its best to bypass your country as much as possible (as they do with Somalia) and you can say goodbye to a large section of your economy (especially as an archipelagic state).

[New Vihenia]

Propeller time





So the device at the rear or the boss of the propeller is called Vortex Diffuser or PBCF (Propeller Boss Cap Fins) Basically reducing vortex and give some benefit in power requirement (2% reduction in required propulsive power) and vibration reduction which a very welcome for a submarine. The design is basically what U-212 had, unlike the commercial PBCF however as seen, it has a unique "duct". Which i think to reduce the potential of the fin itself cavitating.

[The Dolphin Isles]

Seems like a cool design, but why not include an x-shaped rudder to improve how shallow your sub can go? Seems like it would help especially if you are able to put combat swimmer lockout chambers in the VPMs.

[Ideal Britain]

What military jobs would be replaced by robots in 2047? What about in 2052?

Here's what I have so far from websites about automation (I have to use parallels from civilian life because they don't have military jobs there):
Military police soldiers=still a job done by humans

Commissioned officers = still a job for humans

Doctors/dentists=still a job for humans

Field Medics= Still done by humans

Pilots= in my nations still humans due to military ethics,
In other nations probably robots

Logistics soldiers=largely robots

Electricians=human job

Intelligence officers=human job

Chaplains=human job

But what about jobs unique to the military or at least extremely unusual in civilian life: will infantrymen be replaced by infantry robots?
What about artillery?

[Immoren]

155 Artillery System 52

155 Artillery System 52 is state of the art artillery unit. It consists of C3 vehicle, two firing units and one supply unit. It's firing units and supply unit are robotic under guidance of C3 vehicle, while C3 vehicle has sole human: commander of the unit. Usually this is rank of senior lieutenant or captain. All of units have medium machine gun for self-defence in robotic turret, while firing units have dual 155mm guns as main fire power of the unit.

[New Vihenia]

Surface to Air Missile system could be a good subject for a "full automation". One early example i know was Crotale where Human only need to press the button and perhaps designate target. Next is Patriot then Tor-M1 Short Range SAM. The only problem is that in fully automated mode they may not necessarily be smart enough to know what they are hitting.

[Gallia-]

Yes. Things like Patriot and Aegis already have a full automatic mode. For Aegis, the operator designates a sector, sets parameters for target engagement (velocity, altitude, etc. gates), and the computer launches automatically if something shows up that fits the parameters appears. For Patriot, there is a "to be engaged queue" which is a list of targets currently visible to the MPQ and it slowly goes down the list trying to kill everything in the queue provided it can fire on the target. The manual mode is that the operator uses a joystick to put the crosshairs over a target, selects it, and pushes a button labeled "Engage" which puts the target in the TBQ, then the computer tries to kill everything in the TBQ.

The RAF lost a Tornado IDS, the US Army lost a UH-60, and a the USN lost an F-18 to Patriot's full auto mode. AFAIK Aegis has never seen combat with the Special-AUTO mode.

AFAIK the Patriot's engagement scheme (i.e. operator designates, system shoots) and black box of algorithms is derived from Safeguard.

[Questarian New Yorkshire]

Surface to Air Missile system could be a good subject for a "full automation". One early example i know was Crotale where Human only need to press the button and perhaps designate target. Next is Patriot then Tor-M1 Short Range SAM. The only problem is that in fully automated mode they may not necessarily be smart enough to know what they are hitting.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

[New Vihenia]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

Bad GUI. Tho an even weirder occurrence happens very recently. Iranian accidentally shot down passanger plane, with supposedly Tor system which actually deployed right inside the airport. It should have connection to tower all the times, suspects ranged from poor tired crew, poor C4I etc.

[Shanghai industrial complex]

What military jobs would be replaced by robots in 2047? What about in 2052?

Here's what I have so far from websites about automation (I have to use parallels from civilian life because they don't have military jobs there):
Military police soldiers=still a job done by humans

Commissioned officers = still a job for humans

Doctors/dentists=still a job for humans

Field Medics= Still done by humans

Pilots= in my nations still humans due to military ethics,
In other nations probably robots

Logistics soldiers=largely robots

Electricians=human job

Intelligence officers=human job

Chaplains=human job

But what about jobs unique to the military or at least extremely unusual in civilian life: will infantrymen be replaced by infantry robots?
What about artillery?

If it's me, I'll replace them all with robots. I'll put human-machine interfaces on all of them.If they want to become a complete robot, they can upload awareness on the server.If you don't want to, you can also choose deep mechanical modification and assisted electronic brain
Flesh and blood are fragile, only steel can survive forever.

[Shanghai industrial complex]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

Bad GUI. Tho an even weirder occurrence happens very recently. Iranian accidentally shot down passanger plane, with supposedly Tor system which actually deployed right inside the airport. It should have connection to tower all the times, suspects ranged from poor tired crew, poor C4I etc.

I think it's because their IFF system is jammed

[New Vihenia]

I think it's because their IFF system is jammed

It's actually quite hard to jam IFF, due to nature of their low gain antenna. The jammer must also be within the vicinity of the system.

I have my own theory but it's basically a cascading factor. It begin from the fear of US attacks. the net are busy, everyone is tense. Fear of US cyber attacks. The net is perhaps not connected to the local Tor battery in the area, thus requires more attention from crews. It's a late night, the crew which probably not shifted got tired, misjudged the contact he has on the screen and conduct firing.

[Shanghai industrial complex]

Yes. Things like Patriot and Aegis already have a full automatic mode. For Aegis, the operator designates a sector, sets parameters for target engagement (velocity, altitude, etc. gates), and the computer launches automatically if something shows up that fits the parameters appears. For Patriot, there is a "to be engaged queue" which is a list of targets currently visible to the MPQ and it slowly goes down the list trying to kill everything in the queue provided it can fire on the target. The manual mode is that the operator uses a joystick to put the crosshairs over a target, selects it, and pushes a button labeled "Engage" which puts the target in the TBQ, then the computer tries to kill everything in the TBQ.

The RAF lost a Tornado IDS, the US Army lost a UH-60, and a the USN lost an F-18 to Patriot's full auto mode. AFAIK Aegis has never seen combat with the Special-AUTO mode.

AFAIK the Patriot's engagement scheme (i.e. operator designates, system shoots) and black box of algorithms is derived from Safeguard.

Their IFF must have been written by some Indian engineers boiling curry.

[Shanghai industrial complex]

I think it's because their IFF system is jammed

It's actually quite hard to jam IFF, due to nature of their low gain antenna. The jammer must also be within the vicinity of the system.

I have my own theory but it's basically a cascading factor. It begin from the fear of US attacks. the net are busy, everyone is tense. Fear of US cyber attacks. The net is perhaps not connected to the local Tor battery in the area, thus requires more attention from crews. It's a late night, the crew which probably not shifted got tired, misjudged the contact he has on the screen and conduct firing.

But it makes me wonder that the plane took off from the capital airport. As a skilled military commander, he must know that the direction is the airport.That plane is still a regular flight.I think it's either that everyone's drunk or that the commander thinks the capital has fallen.Or they're teaching monkeys to operate missiles.