NS Military Realism Consultation Thread Vol. 11.0

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

Hmm...apparently I just approved mass killings of old people in my Nation. But seriously, is it a viable strategy IRL? I could think it would help deal with not having to care about old people + no need to invest huge amount to healthcare. And would it have effect on the military?

You're risking to lost myriad amount of Brilliant minds and veterans which can help guide your military. e.g David Knox Barton. He's behind Patriot, BEMWS radar or at least the one installed at Thule Island and many radar books. and he's 93 Years old.

This sounds like a problem that can be solved with an actually productive education system.

[Kassaran]

I mean, from an ethical and moral point of view, very wrong. Logically though? There's not actually much logic. If you don't want public healthcare to go towards primarily taking care of your elderly population, don't have public healthcare and trust it to the private sector.

[Gallia-]

Hmm...apparently I just approved mass killings of old people in my Nation. But seriously, is it a viable strategy IRL? I could think it would help deal with not having to care about old people + no need to invest huge amount to healthcare. And would it have effect on the military?

You're risking to lost myriad amount of Brilliant minds and veterans which can help guide your military. e.g David Knox Barton. He's behind Patriot, BEMWS radar or at least the one installed at Thule Island and many radar books. and he's 93 Years old.

brilliance vanishes shockingly fast once you hit 60

You're risking to lost myriad amount of Brilliant minds and veterans which can help guide your military. e.g David Knox Barton. He's behind Patriot, BEMWS radar or at least the one installed at Thule Island and many radar books. and he's 93 Years old.

This sounds like a problem that can be solved with an actually productive education system.

basically

you can also have engineers be required to keep journals and write memoirs after retirement or something

or have people who compile the journals into notes on stuff the engineers worked on

it would save you the trouble of needing to pick the dying brains of senile old men for esoteric knowledge if they just write it down

I mean, from an ethical and moral point of view, very wrong. Logically though? There's not actually much logic. If you don't want public healthcare to go towards primarily taking care of your elderly population, don't have public healthcare and trust it to the private sector.

the united states spends about as much on taking care of its old people as the soviet union spent taking care of its tanks

how does a funding source make for policy difference?

a "private sector" healthcare system would typically result in declining numbers of beds during times of relative little illness and little actual resilience against certain novel diseases and surges in casualties caused by significant political events; granted a national healthcare system isn't immune to this, either, but it would be somewhat easier to control the perverse incentive towards slashing bed numbers by simply legally mandating so many beds or something be maintained (although you could do this with a "private sector" funding source too, obviously, but then you're just blurring the lines and saying "no roads gubmint bad" or something)

japan does it just fine and has a very large number of doctors and beds per patient capita (and bear in mind japan focuses a lot on olds care, too)

of course the hard part for a public healthcare system is that it's much easier to infiltrate/lobby against it and subvert it internally, since it is a homogeneous organization (much like an army), while a lot of private healthcare systems (coof coof USA) are really aggregations of small, autonomous regional syndicates that vary from "backwoods serbia" to "best in the world" depending on where you're at and change their positions in the relative rankings list fairly rapidly

if you dont want public healthcare to take care of elderly population, then don't take care of elderly population

simple as

the primary function of any healthcare, no matter where its money is coming from, is going to be assisting in the preventative maintenance of working age taxpayers and the working age taxpayer should be the primary and principal concern of any healthcare system

a secondary function is going to be taking care of dependents and other oldsters who are just waiting to die

old retired people dont pay taxes, so they should get less able access to healthcare, because they are net dependents on the national GDP lol

the easiest way to ensure that old people are going to die though is to encourage them to do slightly unhealthy things in their youth, like smoke and drink, so they die of heart attacks in their mid-60s or so

but if you have a declining working age population then the healthcare system is doomed to collapse regardless, since the tax base will inevitably collapse in the face of surging entitlement payouts like "pension" and "old folks home"

at that point, it doesnt matter if it's funded by venture capitalists stuffing their gobs with vitamin pills and encapsulated bull shark semen in an attempt to recapture their lost youth or if it's funded by taxpayers contributing 30-40% of their gross income to the national budget, it's gonna break

---

dumbla's healthcare system has a baseline level of public availability that covers most fairly ordinary things like major trauma surgeries, dispensaries, childbirth, asylums, major-but-non-terminal disease care, etc. with a requisite legal co-pay that has to be footed by the person by treated (probably depends on the specific thing, income bracket, etc., but i imagine it's no higher than 33% and no less than 15% of a cost) that is paid for by income taxes and then you have private healthcare as a second tier that provides things like palliative care, retirement homes, cosmetic surgeries, some mental health things, etc. things that the government would never foot the bill for ever

it's probably excellent at stitching legs back on, rubbing aloe on your burns, and dealing with the cancers that inevitably arise as a result of near whole body burns; but dont expect anything except witty quips and brusqueness as far as bedside manner, and there is likely strong ageist and ableist streaks throughout the healthcare system that tends to undervalue elderly patients and people with literally crippling injuries or mental illness

so when youre old youre just sorta waiting to die unless you can afford a palliative care nurse or aide to come into your home i guess, and if you have some really severe mental disorder or something then the doctor will give you sympathy but shrug and say that he isn't trained to deal with the issue, and might suggest that you talk to a priest or family member or something; then again gallans have a strong mindset against mental healthcare which probably ends up manifesting as a patient perception that mental healthcare is unnecessary, they just need to get over it, and talking to a doctor is only needed if your leg is missing or whatever

so basically theyre all dour depressives who think it's just another few weeks before they become bright and cheery again and that theyre not actually in need of medication because they arent delusional or w/e, they dont want to take half a dozen drugs because they can barely remember to take one or two, the nearest outpatient psych facility is 300 miles away, and they still have a job and pay their taxes so they must be doing something right

as a result the medical system is probably lacking in mental health capacities beyond medium to long term care facilities that provide stuff like EST for very severe depressives simply because it cant see patients that are that are below that level of care

iow it's japan, but it hates olds and the terminally ill, and it's secretly a reserve healthcare industrial complex made for treatment of battlefield trauma and burn patients

[Theodosiya]

Also, would practicing and enforcing eugenics and "re-cycling (read : killing) mentally ill people a good idea?

[Gallia-]

if you kill everyone you dont have to worry about healthcare you should consider that one

[Theodosiya]

if you kill everyone you dont have to worry about healthcare you should consider that one

Well, no mentally ill people + having your average population be "ubermensch" is a good idea. Toying with DNA, eugenics...

I mean, having majority of the population being productive and would be productive, without non productive deadweight would be a good idea, right?

Well, if there's way to make 65+ and mentally and physically disabled be productive...

[Gallia-]

mass liquidation would produce mentally ill people by default so you would need to liquidate the liquidators and so on. you can of course declare that liquidators cannot be mentally ill, but that sort of undercuts the claim that you're doing anything with any sort of consistent logic: if the only people who would be capable of liquidating people who take SSRIs or something are psychopaths, and psychopaths are no longer mentally ill, why are depressives still mentally ill? that's a boggling question that has no real answer except "because". the point being that mental illness is a ephemeral concept, and what mental illnesses we can discern that have a true physical cause that we've known about (stuff like severe depression, autism, seizures, etc.) can generally be treated with things like electroshock therapy, anti-seizure medications, and classroom training. they are not mystical shaman curses, at least not the real ones, and quite a few of what the western world calls mental illness in earlier times would just be considered personality quirks.

so either it's one mentally ill society liquidating another mentally ill society, which is rather farcical in itself but not particularly productive, or it's a single society using the mentally ill to liquidate the mentally ill, which is also farcical because it relates very little factory floor plans

a very typical third world mentality i guess, thinking that liquidation of <some subset of population> can lead to car factories springing up overnight in the killing fields

it would make more sense if your liquidation had the end goal of destroying the economy but not even pol pot could achieve that one (although maduro is well on his way to doing this)

"eugenics" in the proper 1920s sense is problematic because it tends to select for arbitrary sexual traits rather than actually useful ones, i.e. height

natural selection is a better method because it actually responds to reality rather than being vulnerable to perception warping effects

there are plenty of cases where being a normal height, like 5' 6" or 5' 9", is better than being 7' or something, but eugenics would likely drive towards the latter and then natural selection would need to intervene and choose for strong hearts or something, or else the population dies out

"eugenics" in the modern sense of family planning is just common sense and part of a sound healthcare initiative

[The Inter-Stellar Federation]

if you kill everyone you dont have to worry about healthcare you should consider that one

Well, no mentally ill people + having your average population be "ubermensch" is a good idea. Toying with DNA, eugenics...

I mean, having majority of the population being productive and would be productive, without non productive deadweight would be a good idea, right?

Well, if there's way to make 65+ and mentally and physically disabled be productive...

The thing is most people have mental illnesses at some point in their lives.
A physics professor with anxiety issues is still a physics professor.

Hereditary defects maybe (from a practical point of view) but many mental illnesses can be cured leading to members being productive.

Certain disabilities would make sense from a military point of view.

Also killing PTSD sufferers would lower Army morale after you killed their friends.

[The Inter-Stellar Federation]

mass liquidation would produce mentally ill people by default so you would need to liquidate the liquidators and so on

"eugenics" is problematic because it tends to select for arbitrary sexual traits rather than actually useful ones, i.e. height

natural selection is a better method because it actually responds to reality rather than being vulnerable to perception warping effects

there are plenty of cases where being a normal height, like 5' 6" or 5' 9", is better than being 7' or something, but eugenics would likely drive towards the latter and then natural selection would need to intervene and choose for strong hearts or something, or else the population dies out

True as well as the fact mental illnesses can be cured making the patient normally productive and some mentally ill people might be productive.

[Theodosiya]

mass liquidation would produce mentally ill people by default so you would need to liquidate the liquidators and so on

"eugenics" is problematic because it tends to select for arbitrary sexual traits rather than actually useful ones, i.e. height

natural selection is a better method because it actually responds to reality rather than being vulnerable to perception warping effects

there are plenty of cases where being a normal height, like 5' 6" or 5' 9", is better than being 7' or something, but eugenics would likely drive towards the latter and then natural selection would need to intervene and choose for strong hearts or something, or else the population dies out

mass liquidation would produce mentally ill people by default so you would need to liquidate the liquidators and so on

"eugenics" is problematic because it tends to select for arbitrary sexual traits rather than actually useful ones, i.e. height

natural selection is a better method because it actually responds to reality rather than being vulnerable to perception warping effects

there are plenty of cases where being a normal height, like 5' 6" or 5' 9", is better than being 7' or something, but eugenics would likely drive towards the latter and then natural selection would need to intervene and choose for strong hearts or something, or else the population dies out

True as well as the fact mental illnesses can be cured making the patient normally productive and some mentally ill people might be productive.

Hmm. Good points. Well, would that mean one day making children capable to hold breath very long, growing tall between 5'5 to 6'3 in adulthood, be strong etc possible by modifying DNA and treatment and training throughout childhood to adulthood?

Also possibly makes average old people still productive in their 80s to 90s.

[The Inter-Stellar Federation]

if you kill everyone you dont have to worry about healthcare you should consider that one

Well, no mentally ill people + having your average population be "ubermensch" is a good idea. Toying with DNA, eugenics...

I mean, having majority of the population being productive and would be productive, without non productive deadweight would be a good idea, right?

Well, if there's way to make 65+ and mentally and physically disabled be productive...

65+ were productive economically in their and the prospect of a comfortable retirement increases morale for the working-age people
As well as the fact that certain social functions of old people improve the Army.
Physically and mentally disabled people can be productive in areas where their disability is not a barrier/can be over-come.
There are autistic people who are good at science,
Intelligent blind people and physically strong intellectually disabled people.

[Gallia-]

liquidating unproductive people is generally more effort than is required since it diverts labor from productive things like making cars and building roads into digging ditches and machine gunning children, while at the same time causing the problem it claims to prevent; shockingly enough it is difficult to get people to try to liquidate their sons, brothers, cousins, friends, and romantic partners because they have some arbitrarily defined personality trait that makes them "unproductive" so you would end up spending a lot of overhead on pursuing and destroying these elements of society: far more than you would by simply eating the cost of caring for them a few more years while teaching children with autism how to react to unplanned train schedule changes

israel has even figured out how to do this on a small scale so it's using kids with autism as intelligence photo filters to identify targets in ISIS videos: probably a fun job because you get to look at frames of videos and see what trees or buildings are in the background or whatever

the most efficient method is to simply have a increasingly wider population pyramid of young taxpayers who can foot the bill for a small dependency ratio that doesnt increase substantially over time; so encourage things like smoking and drinking and don't support the elderly by giving them entitlements that need to be footed by taxpayers

you can structure a pension system like Singapore where each person pays into a private account that is handed out at retirement (thus benefiting young people) and you can put retirement homes and palliative care off to the side from the normal, publicly funded healthcare system since this doesn't return anyone to work, it just ensures that old people don't die in the cold

or you can have employers provide retirement incomes in something like a 401k by pulling money from incomes, so people will be able to work and retire comfortably on a wage income if you want to avoid a publicly funded pension system for whatever reason, and the company isnt actually losing cash if it suddenly goes insolvent or something

[Lisander]

This is more for the non-military consultation thread but, your exchange rate is not twice the USD with that GDP unless you have a bloody damn good reason to (often irl this amounts to sitting on seas of crude oil like the Arabian oil sheikhs).

This is the data I gathered from the NS Calculators. I do understand those are deemed to flaws, but I think the creators of this calculators should have some proper explanation since they're allegedly using the data provided by our issue answers. There are differences, indeed. While NSTracker by Epizy states L$1.00 = 1.8117, NSDossier states that L$1.00 = $1.9878. BTW, my economy has been 100/100 for some time. And I believe this should be interfering on this calculation. My biggest industry is Information Technology, so I think it should have some good portion of the blame in this mathematics.

[Purpelia]

This is more for the non-military consultation thread but, your exchange rate is not twice the USD with that GDP unless you have a bloody damn good reason to (often irl this amounts to sitting on seas of crude oil like the Arabian oil sheikhs).

This is the data I gathered from the NS Calculators. I do understand those are deemed to flaws, but I think the creators of this calculators should have some proper explanation since they're allegedly using the data provided by our issue answers. There are differences, indeed. While NSTracker by Epizy states L$1.00 = 1.8117, NSDossier states that L$1.00 = $1.9878. BTW, my economy has been 100/100 for some time. And I believe this should be interfering on this calculation. My biggest industry is Information Technology, so I think it should have some good portion of the blame in this mathematics.

NS Calculator numbers are crazy with a capital C.

[Taihei Tengoku]

>ns calculators

what is this, jolt?

[Questarian New Yorkshire]

if you kill everyone you dont have to worry about healthcare you should consider that one

Well, no mentally ill people + having your average population be "ubermensch" is a good idea. Toying with DNA, eugenics...

I mean, having majority of the population being productive and would be productive, without non productive deadweight would be a good idea, right?

Well, if there's way to make 65+ and mentally and physically disabled be productive...

Unsurprisingly, eugenics doesn't work the way you think it does. You have a fundamental misunderstanding about both eugenics and productivity.

Ie kill all the people with Y characteristic and then there will be no Y characteristic, so the cost of treating Y characteristic (X) will be 0.

Eugenics was about preventing these people from reproduction by sterilising them. Sometimes you can prevent highly heritable diseases this way, but the main saving for the state was that it wouldn't have to care for the children of disabled people, since disabled people can't.

The problem is that a lot of the problems are environmental, or while they're heritable, they can skip generations, they can go undetected, and they can appear more or less randomly in almost all of the population.

But more to the point, the non productive section of society is about 80% of the population. First, you have to eliminate children and elderly people. In a just under replacement TFR country like Britain, that's just under 40% of the population. In a higher TFR country like Indonesia it's a bit lower, but it's still significant. There are plenty of ways we can establish productivity, but if we use IQ, then obviously 50% of the population are under 100 IQ. 90 IQ is still plenty productive. Under 85 IQ is 15%. So, of the remaining 60% of the population, probably 10% of them are going to be too dumb to be productive in any meaningful sense. So you're already half the entire population down.

On top of that, there are also people who are - lazy, criminals, rakes, underdeployed, women who stay at home, people who fulfill non-productive jobs like clergy, army and journalists, et cetera. So yeah, you're really approaching pareto distribution for productivity - 20% of the workforce doing 80% of the work. That raises the question:

Can I eliminate 80% of the workforce? Obviously the answer is no, you can not. The other question is - can you substitute some of the unproductive people for productive people? Answer, not to any meaningful extent. The number of humans are actually "productive" and "contributing" to industrial society is shockingly low. As Galla also points out, measures to suppress them take a lot of work and most people do not want to shoot their parents, children, siblings, friends etc. It's also more or less impossible to define.

[New Vihenia]

VPM time.





As VLS it can be loaded with 8 Kalibr or Tomahawks.

[Ideal Britain]

Would the arrest of prominent far-right figures for hate speech and banning marches by their supporters (libertarian/old-school liberal marches in favour of free speech would be treated differently) leading to clashes between racists and riot police lead to far-right terror?
In this nation the far-right is small but increasingly militant.

[Radictistan]

For a moment I honestly thought the top pic was a pill dispenser.

[New Vihenia]

For a moment I honestly thought the top pic was a pill dispenser.

Kinda close. as the cap is still white

[Spirit of Hope]

Would the arrest of prominent far-right figures for hate speech and banning marches by their supporters (libertarian/old-school liberal marches in favour of free speech would be treated differently) leading to clashes between racists and riot police lead to far-right terror?
In this nation the far-right is small but increasingly militant.

Far right terrorism already exists, arresting them for hate speach probably wont make them less militant.

For a moment I honestly thought the top pic was a pill dispenser.

Pills of death.

[Ideal Britain]

Would the arrest of prominent far-right figures for hate speech and banning marches by their supporters (libertarian/old-school liberal marches in favour of free speech would be treated differently) leading to clashes between racists and riot police lead to far-right terror?
In this nation the far-right is small but increasingly militant.

Can somebody please answer my question?
By the way the far-right in this is centred in: Yorkshire(mostly rural places in the South and West but some urban areas in the South), South-Wales and Essex.

[The Manticoran Empire]

Would the arrest of prominent far-right figures for hate speech and banning marches by their supporters (libertarian/old-school liberal marches in favour of free speech would be treated differently) leading to clashes between racists and riot police lead to far-right terror?
In this nation the far-right is small but increasingly militant.

Can somebody please answer my question?
By the way the far-right in this is centred in: Yorkshire(mostly rural places in the South and West but some urban areas in the South), South-Wales and Essex.

The far right is typically small and militant. The problem is that banning them sends a message to even the old school liberals and libertarians that your government doesn't actually respect freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, and freedom of petition for redress. You know, the cornerstones of western liberal democracy?

[Gallia-]

Eugenics was about preventing these people from reproduction by sterilising them. Sometimes you can prevent highly heritable diseases this way, but the main saving for the state was that it wouldn't have to care for the children of disabled people, since disabled people can't.

ye

modern family planning just aborts down's kids and stuff these days

but that was too aggro for the 1920s i guess

[Triplebaconation]

When proposing pogroms it's always a good idea to ask if you yourself would be eliminated.