NS Military Realism Consultation Thread Vol. 11.0

[New Vihenia]

Unfortunately there are no real cost estimate for latest Chinese tank :x However you could perhaps try finding information on Pakistani Al Khalid, which based on earlier Type-85 Tank.

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Anyway, for my ramjet shell, guess i'm calling it "Valac" now.



The inner space

[Austrasien]

So would the padding need to be the exact materials that trauma pads are made of, or could it be materials like kevlar or kevlar/classified composite?

The best way to reduce trauma is to use a stronger plate. The penetration process uses work. The stronger (keeping in mind the strength of a plate with respect to ballistic penetrators isn't a one-dimensional characteristic) the plate is, the more work will be used making the hole. The more is used making the hole the less is free to say propel the plate back into the chest.

As Crookfur said Boron Carbide (and Silicon Carbide) are the current state of the art though. There is no immediate prospect these materials can be surpassed by anything other than more perfectly made examples of the same.

People have a tendency to conceive of body armour as acting something like a hard plate on springs being punched. The hard plate "stops" the projectile and the soft material behind it "absorbs" the blow. This is a pretty good understanding of being punched. But it neglects that when a bullet strikes a ballistic plate it must do (a lot of) work to make the hole - a plate does not react as if it were simply shoved by an object with a momentum equal to the bullet. If the plate was against a force gauge and was shot the resulting impulse measured at the gauge would not be equal to the momentum carried by the bullet even if the bullet is halted completely within the plate. Because a significant amount of it will have dissipated into irrelevant (as far as protection is concerned) forms in the process of making a hole.

[Mutiar]

WSOs were necessary for air-to-air radars through the third generation of jet fighter aircraft. In the fourth generation they became less necessary for air-to-air combat but still useful for managing targeting pods and the like on strikes. In the fifth generation their job is done with sensor fusion. As for training, air forces recruit pilots and WSOs off their potential in initial flight training first and then select the top tier of both into advanced fighter training. Most pilots don't fly fighters and most WSOs don't sit behind fighter pilots.

I see. While the sensor fusion of late 4th generation fighters (specifically, Rafale) doesn't compare to 5th generation fighters, do they make WSOs redundant for strike missions?

The French air force's Rafale fleet is supposedly 60% two-seaters, due to Gulf War experience - is this just conservatism or is the sensor fusion simply not up to it?

Edit: To be more specific - Mutiar is an island nation, so 'strike' for the most part means maritime strike vectored by maritime patrol or coastal radar and interdiction against fixed targets, rather than searching for mobile targets on land.

Small countries, like big countries, buy fighters based on what they think they need to do with them. Israel, Singapore and Qatar have two-seat F-15s because they need to bomb key targets inside their enemies' territory (Iran, Malaysia, Saudi Arabia) in addition to defending their airspace.

I agree - but the thing is, would they (in particular Qatar, as its air force is much smaller than Saudi Arabia's) be better served by a somewhat larger number of single-seater fighters?

There isn't a single-seater F-15E so maybe something like Super Hornet.

[Hrstrovokia]

Does anyone know of any modern pillbox or fortification creations in use today? I heard of something created by Russia that was a concealed pillbox dug into the ground armed with a machine gun and kornet atgm, had optical view 360 etc. I have searched on Army Guide and Armyrecognition but can't find it now.

[Gallia-]

His name is Gorchak.

[Questarian New Yorkshire]

Does anyone know of any modern pillbox or fortification creations in use today? I heard of something created by Russia that was a concealed pillbox dug into the ground armed with a machine gun and kornet atgm, had optical view 360 etc. I have searched on Army Guide and Armyrecognition but can't find it now.

Take turret from past-generation tank.

Dig into ground.

Done.

[Gallia-]

Bad.

Gorchak has all the signature of a prone infantryman when fully retracted.

[Hrstrovokia]

His name is Gorchak.

You are a golden god, thanks.

[North Arkana]

Snip

So currently, what I've been hearing about is rounds being stopped by the ESAPI plates, but there is considerable bruising and possible damage to the ribs. People are told they don't have to wear a trauma pad behind the plates, but people do it anyways, and as far as they can tell, it helps.

I'm considering two possibilities very heavily. You mentioned Boron Carbide plates that have a UHMWPE backing.

1. I use the replacement for Boron Carbide, which is thinner and stronger, and use the weight/space savings to thicken the UHMWPE backing.

2. I use the weight/space savings to put a kevlar/*classifed* composite behind the UHMWPE packing. Said composite appears to bad at stopping bullets, but better then other materials at absorbing energy. (I need to check if it's better then UHMWPE, I just know it's better then kevlar by a good margin)

You might say something like "As far as I know, the trama pad won't do anything" and so I would propose.... What if the material I was replacing the Boron Carbide with, could stop a larger and faster bullet the M2 30-06, and thus there is more energy vibrating through the plate itself? Just be mindful that this is a factor I am considering, when I'm being perhaps overly redundant in trying to protect the body from "spalling" (Yes I know it's not the same thing, but it's about stopping the bullet, and the joules or ft/lbs it delivers)

So currently, what I've been hearing about is rounds being stopped by the ESAPI plates, but there is considerable bruising and possible damage to the ribs. People are told they don't have to wear a trauma pad behind the plates, but people do it anyways, and as far as they can tell, it helps.

I'm considering two possibilities very heavily. You mentioned Boron Carbide plates that have a UHMWPE backing.

1. I use the replacement for Boron Carbide, which is thinner and stronger, and use the weight/space savings to thicken the UHMWPE backing.

2. I use the weight/space savings to put a kevlar/*classifed* composite behind the UHMWPE packing. Said composite appears to bad at stopping bullets, but better then other materials at absorbing energy. (I need to check if it's better then UHMWPE, I just know it's better then kevlar by a good margin)

You might say something like "As far as I know, the trama pad won't do anything" and so I would propose.... What if the material I was replacing the Boron Carbide with, could stop a larger and faster bullet the M2 30-06, and thus there is more energy vibrating through the plate itself? Just be mindful that this is a factor I am considering, when I'm being perhaps overly redundant in trying to protect the body from "spalling" (Yes I know it's not the same thing, but it's about stopping the bullet, and the joules or ft/lbs it delivers)

The UHMWPE backing on a ESAPI plate is in the form of a solid composite, it doesn't really do anything to absorb the blunt force trauma. So if you want to stop more/suffer less trauma then it would need additional padding.

I'm skeptical of any wonder material suddenly being better than BC but i suppose it's a possibility. Of course BC plates capable of stopping .50bmg have been around since the 80s so you might want think about rephrasing some things to indicate offering more protection in a similar weight or lighter.

So would the padding need to be the exact materials that trauma pads are made of, or could it be materials like kevlar or kevlar/classified composite?

The best way to reduce trauma is to use a stronger plate. The penetration process uses work. The stronger (keeping in mind the strength of a plate with respect to ballistic penetrators isn't a one-dimensional characteristic) the plate is, the more work will be used making the hole. The more is used making the hole the less is free to say propel the plate back into the chest.

As Crookfur said Boron Carbide (and Silicon Carbide) are the current state of the art though. There is no immediate prospect these materials can be surpassed by anything other than more perfectly made examples of the same.

People have a tendency to conceive of body armour as acting something like a hard plate on springs being punched. The hard plate "stops" the projectile and the soft material behind it "absorbs" the blow. This is a pretty good understanding of being punched. But it neglects that when a bullet strikes a ballistic plate it must do (a lot of) work to make the hole - a plate does not react as if it were simply shoved by an object with a momentum equal to the bullet. If the plate was against a force gauge and was shot the resulting impulse measured at the gauge would not be equal to the momentum carried by the bullet even if the bullet is halted completely within the plate. Because a significant amount of it will have dissipated into irrelevant (as far as protection is concerned) forms in the process of making a hole.

Figured this was a good thing for me to chime in on. Boron Carbide is, bar none, the best possible material for hard body armor currently available, and the US Army has known this since studies in the 70s. All the materials which performed better were worse in some way that makes it cripplingly bad for armor usage at a personal level.

For example, some materials were better, but much, much denser, to a degree where the weight of body armor would have been completely prohibitive. Other materials were lighter and had better performance, but needed to be thicker, even with lighter weight, resulting in needed to basically strap boxes to your chest. Light boxes, but still bulky things that would get in the way of everything. Finally there were materials that were just absolutely amazing in all categories, except toxicity, being bad enough that the dust thrown up from stopping a bullet impact is a genuine health hazard in a non-trivial timespan.

Basically, if you're using the Boron Carbide replacement, I have to wonder which one of these problems your troops have been saddled with?
Broken backs and knees?
Boxes strapped to their chests?
Lethal toxic dust?

[Gallia-]

how is toxic dust even real just wear an n95 respirator lmao

[North Arkana]

oh no. I can hear gas mask aesthetic wankers in the distance.

[Gallia-]

first cybernetic modification: hepa filters in lungs

[Republic of Penguinian Astronautia]

So currently, what I've been hearing about is rounds being stopped by the ESAPI plates, but there is considerable bruising and possible damage to the ribs. People are told they don't have to wear a trauma pad behind the plates, but people do it anyways, and as far as they can tell, it helps.

I'm considering two possibilities very heavily. You mentioned Boron Carbide plates that have a UHMWPE backing.

1. I use the replacement for Boron Carbide, which is thinner and stronger, and use the weight/space savings to thicken the UHMWPE backing.

2. I use the weight/space savings to put a kevlar/*classifed* composite behind the UHMWPE packing. Said composite appears to bad at stopping bullets, but better then other materials at absorbing energy. (I need to check if it's better then UHMWPE, I just know it's better then kevlar by a good margin)

You might say something like "As far as I know, the trama pad won't do anything" and so I would propose.... What if the material I was replacing the Boron Carbide with, could stop a larger and faster bullet the M2 30-06, and thus there is more energy vibrating through the plate itself? Just be mindful that this is a factor I am considering, when I'm being perhaps overly redundant in trying to protect the body from "spalling" (Yes I know it's not the same thing, but it's about stopping the bullet, and the joules or ft/lbs it delivers)

The UHMWPE backing on a ESAPI plate is in the form of a solid composite, it doesn't really do anything to absorb the blunt force trauma. So if you want to stop more/suffer less trauma then it would need additional padding.

I'm skeptical of any wonder material suddenly being better than BC but i suppose it's a possibility. Of course BC plates capable of stopping .50bmg have been around since the 80s so you might want think about rephrasing some things to indicate offering more protection in a similar weight or lighter.

The best way to reduce trauma is to use a stronger plate. The penetration process uses work. The stronger (keeping in mind the strength of a plate with respect to ballistic penetrators isn't a one-dimensional characteristic) the plate is, the more work will be used making the hole. The more is used making the hole the less is free to say propel the plate back into the chest.

As Crookfur said Boron Carbide (and Silicon Carbide) are the current state of the art though. There is no immediate prospect these materials can be surpassed by anything other than more perfectly made examples of the same.

People have a tendency to conceive of body armour as acting something like a hard plate on springs being punched. The hard plate "stops" the projectile and the soft material behind it "absorbs" the blow. This is a pretty good understanding of being punched. But it neglects that when a bullet strikes a ballistic plate it must do (a lot of) work to make the hole - a plate does not react as if it were simply shoved by an object with a momentum equal to the bullet. If the plate was against a force gauge and was shot the resulting impulse measured at the gauge would not be equal to the momentum carried by the bullet even if the bullet is halted completely within the plate. Because a significant amount of it will have dissipated into irrelevant (as far as protection is concerned) forms in the process of making a hole.

Figured this was a good thing for me to chime in on. Boron Carbide is, bar none, the best possible material for hard body armor currently available, and the US Army has known this since studies in the 70s. All the materials which performed better were worse in some way that makes it cripplingly bad for armor usage at a personal level.

For example, some materials were better, but much, much denser, to a degree where the weight of body armor would have been completely prohibitive. Other materials were lighter and had better performance, but needed to be thicker, even with lighter weight, resulting in needed to basically strap boxes to your chest. Light boxes, but still bulky things that would get in the way of everything. Finally there were materials that were just absolutely amazing in all categories, except toxicity, being bad enough that the dust thrown up from stopping a bullet impact is a genuine health hazard in a non-trivial timespan.

Basically, if you're using the Boron Carbide replacement, I have to wonder which one of these problems your troops have been saddled with?
Broken backs and knees?
Boxes strapped to their chests?
Lethal toxic dust?

Do you have links to any studies? This seems interesting.

Also, is gorchak supposed to be a permanent fortification, or were they supposed.to be carried around by engineering troops, or what?

[Gallia-]

It's semi-permanent.

[North Arkana]

Figured this was a good thing for me to chime in on. Boron Carbide is, bar none, the best possible material for hard body armor currently available, and the US Army has known this since studies in the 70s. All the materials which performed better were worse in some way that makes it cripplingly bad for armor usage at a personal level.

For example, some materials were better, but much, much denser, to a degree where the weight of body armor would have been completely prohibitive. Other materials were lighter and had better performance, but needed to be thicker, even with lighter weight, resulting in needed to basically strap boxes to your chest. Light boxes, but still bulky things that would get in the way of everything. Finally there were materials that were just absolutely amazing in all categories, except toxicity, being bad enough that the dust thrown up from stopping a bullet impact is a genuine health hazard in a non-trivial timespan.

Basically, if you're using the Boron Carbide replacement, I have to wonder which one of these problems your troops have been saddled with?
Broken backs and knees?
Boxes strapped to their chests?
Lethal toxic dust?

Do you have links to any studies? This seems interesting.

Also, is gorchak supposed to be a permanent fortification, or were they supposed.to be carried around by engineering troops, or what?

Paywalled sorts of sources, unfortunately. Or sort of thing that you'd have to look for forever if you're not on NIPRnet (which I'm not). I'll see what I can find in my freetime but don't expect much.

[Doppio Giudici]

[spoiler]
So currently, what I've been hearing about is rounds being stopped by the ESAPI plates, but there is considerable bruising and possible damage to the ribs. People are told they don't have to wear a trauma pad behind the plates, but people do it anyways, and as far as they can tell, it helps.

I'm considering two possibilities very heavily. You mentioned Boron Carbide plates that have a UHMWPE backing.

1. I use the replacement for Boron Carbide, which is thinner and stronger, and use the weight/space savings to thicken the UHMWPE backing.

2. I use the weight/space savings to put a kevlar/*classifed* composite behind the UHMWPE packing. Said composite appears to bad at stopping bullets, but better then other materials at absorbing energy. (I need to check if it's better then UHMWPE, I just know it's better then kevlar by a good margin)

You might say something like "As far as I know, the trama pad won't do anything" and so I would propose.... What if the material I was replacing the Boron Carbide with, could stop a larger and faster bullet the M2 30-06, and thus there is more energy vibrating through the plate itself? Just be mindful that this is a factor I am considering, when I'm being perhaps overly redundant in trying to protect the body from "spalling" (Yes I know it's not the same thing, but it's about stopping the bullet, and the joules or ft/lbs it delivers)

The UHMWPE backing on a ESAPI plate is in the form of a solid composite, it doesn't really do anything to absorb the blunt force trauma. So if you want to stop more/suffer less trauma then it would need additional padding.

I'm skeptical of any wonder material suddenly being better than BC but i suppose it's a possibility. Of course BC plates capable of stopping .50bmg have been around since the 80s so you might want think about rephrasing some things to indicate offering more protection in a similar weight or lighter.

The best way to reduce trauma is to use a stronger plate. The penetration process uses work. The stronger (keeping in mind the strength of a plate with respect to ballistic penetrators isn't a one-dimensional characteristic) the plate is, the more work will be used making the hole. The more is used making the hole the less is free to say propel the plate back into the chest.

As Crookfur said Boron Carbide (and Silicon Carbide) are the current state of the art though. There is no immediate prospect these materials can be surpassed by anything other than more perfectly made examples of the same.

People have a tendency to conceive of body armour as acting something like a hard plate on springs being punched. The hard plate "stops" the projectile and the soft material behind it "absorbs" the blow. This is a pretty good understanding of being punched. But it neglects that when a bullet strikes a ballistic plate it must do (a lot of) work to make the hole - a plate does not react as if it were simply shoved by an object with a momentum equal to the bullet. If the plate was against a force gauge and was shot the resulting impulse measured at the gauge would not be equal to the momentum carried by the bullet even if the bullet is halted completely within the plate. Because a significant amount of it will have dissipated into irrelevant (as far as protection is concerned) forms in the process of making a hole.

Figured this was a good thing for me to chime in on. Boron Carbide is, bar none, the best possible material for hard body armor currently available, and the US Army has known this since studies in the 70s. All the materials which performed better were worse in some way that makes it cripplingly bad for armor usage at a personal level.

For example, some materials were better, but much, much denser, to a degree where the weight of body armor would have been completely prohibitive. Other materials were lighter and had better performance, but needed to be thicker, even with lighter weight, resulting in needed to basically strap boxes to your chest. Light boxes, but still bulky things that would get in the way of everything. Finally there were materials that were just absolutely amazing in all categories, except toxicity, being bad enough that the dust thrown up from stopping a bullet impact is a genuine health hazard in a non-trivial timespan.

Basically, if you're using the Boron Carbide replacement, I have to wonder which one of these problems your troops have been saddled with?
Broken backs and knees?
Boxes strapped to their chests?
Lethal toxic dust?[/spoiler]

I'm in an RP community that accepts "NS MT Tech". Currently, my biggest limitations are cost and getting a good writeup together. I'm currently considering either using more advanced materials to reinforce an ESAPI plate (Thus using less of the very expensive materials added), or avoiding part of the process that makes the advanced materials as advanced as they are (By working on the micrometer scale and not smaller).

Currently, I'm mostly focusing on everything besides the hard armor, as that has the least amount of research papers and is generally accepted to be the most expensive.

I'm actually working off off two separate players writeups. The first one I look at to see what I can get away with, and the second isn't very clear, but that nation was selling technology that my nation IC has paid for.

EDIT: I also have managed to get ahold of research papers on S5 that should be behind a paywall, but they were handing out free trials. So far it appears promising. The UHMWPE plates were kinda trash, maybe these might be less trashy.

[North Arkana]

"NS MT Tech". Is that code for "techno jargon no one can figure out enough to argue against"? Because frankly all this talk of unnamed advanced materials to reinforce boron carbide plates sounds like it.

[Gallia-]

through unnamed advanced hyper material production methods dumbla is able to produce sintered c-BN plates wrapped in M5 fiber to issue to ground troops

it's too lazy to do this properly and keeps them warehoused for contingency operations tho ):

[Austrasien]

through unnamed advanced hyper material production methods dumbla is able to produce sintered c-BN plates wrapped in M5 fiber to issue to ground troops

it's too lazy to do this properly and keeps them warehoused for contingency operations tho ):

Vikyland being advanced makes all plates of UHWMP and compensates for the loss of protection with vigorous yelling

[Gallia-]

if you scream loud enough the sonic vibrations will stop the bullets in their tracks

[Doppio Giudici]

"NS MT Tech". Is that code for "techno jargon no one can figure out enough to argue against"? Because frankly all this talk of unnamed advanced materials to reinforce boron carbide plates sounds like it.

There are some research papers to back what the hard armor might be reinforced with, but there are way more papers for M5 and mixing things with kevlar to help it absorb energy.

Some of the stuff that is denser, is actually able of doing the same things as Boron Carbide with less weight, the biggest issue is of course cost. The full plate would be 8 times the cost we want, so maybe if we use a 15th as much to reinforce the Boron Carbide, we can end up with a lighter solution.

"1) Incorporation of ******s into ******s, ceramics or metals to enhance their toughness or hardness and erosion resistance."

It might be way outside the price range though, the papers never seem to mention cost.

[North Arkana]

neat, you redacted and non-sourced it to make it unverifiable.

[Radictistan]

[quote="New Vihenia";p="36850131"][/quote]
Hot damn. Where did you get the data to right-size all those parts?

[Purpelia]

So nobody has any comments on my crew layout?

[Theodosiya]

Hmm. Might simply introduce a "new generation modular protective suit" that are composed from a simply heavily modified IOTV based vest, with MOLLE and ALICE webbing compatibility and with the vest itself made from composite UHMWPE-Kevlar-M5, with XSAPI 4 side insert. Ditto for Carrier, except less coverage overall (since, it's basically plate carrier made from soft armor material, not as protective as full ballistic vest but more protective). Auxiliary protection for groin and deltoid are available too. Older systems and commercial could take the XSAPI too (like RBA, those plate insert addition for PASGT vest, etc...)