NS Military Realism Consultation Thread Vol. 11.0

[Triplebaconation]

All it takes to investigate an obviously suspicious system is for a FTL capable ship to take a look at your odd system on a map and chart a strait line through it and its own homeworld and than take off in the opposite direction stopping once every light year to take a sensor reading using regular non FTL sensors. Eventually it is going to reach a distance where the image it gets is from before you did your magic.

Or you could just use your FTL technology to send astronomical data to the past.

[Danternoust]

Or you could just use your FTL technology to send astronomical data to the past.

If FTL is measured as the speed in which one can send the smallest indivisible unit of information over a distance faster than light can travel, than FTL is more possible than otherwise.

[Grand Indochina]

Infantry in cover - i.e. in ditches and trenches and foxholes - takes 5 times as many artillery shells to successfully suppress iirc.

Fortifications have become hard counters to tank attacks. Again.

There is a difference between cover on the tactical level (eg, foxholes) and fortification on the strategic level. Fortifications (in the strategic sense) are not necessarily obsolete, but have fallen into disfavor due to significant cost and questionable value, especially if not constructed in depth. Add to this that fortifications are often difficult to upgrade or retrofit, have to be continuously manned and maintained, and only have defensive value for a limited area, and you can understand why fortifications are rarely constructed anymore.
On the flip side, if you broaden your definition of fortification outside of a Maginot line style defensive, you'll find that fortifications do still exist. Missile silos, NORAD, Balaklava naval base, and Hatch Green are just some examples of fortified positions intended to protect strategic assets.

Fortifications are not necessarily obsolete. Even fairly rudimentary defensive positions are quite effective on the tactical level. However, on a larger scale, positions like the Maginot Line, the Atlantic Wall, or the Siegfried Line have fallen out of favor for a number of reasons.
1. Such positions are incredibly expensive to build and maintain as well as requiring years of work to build. This requires that a democratic state maintains a solid political strategy to ensure funding for the construction period, which isn't guaranteed.
2. In addition to financial and political expenditures, fixed fortifications require tens of thousands of trained personnel to operate and maintain as well as providing a fairly obvious position for enemy airpower to attack. Air power can be moderately negated by installing various defenses such as SAM batteries, ABM sites, CRAM cannons, and anti-aircraft guns. However, these positions would be vulnerable to SEAD operations, since they are static positions and the only thing you need to destroy to basically render them useless is the radar.
3. For some people, a Fortification network implies an abandonment of maneuver warfare, making them potentially unpopular with the people that manufacture things like tanks and IFVs. Combine that with the fact fortifications are expensive and vulnerable to air strikes and most nations are alright with less permanent but more flexible tactical defensive positions like foxholes and trenches as opposed to full on forts.

Thank you all for the feedbacks, they are very helpful. I guess ditches and trenches are better than bunkers and pillboxes.

[Gallia-]

Modern pillboxes are a far cry from GHQ line monstrosities.

Jamie bring up that picture of the Konkurs-PKT equipped low profile pillbox used by Machine Gun Artillery Regiments.

[Turuma]

Hello! I hope this is an appropriate place to ask this sort of question,

I was wondering if anyone knows were to find literature on the Achzarit heavy APC, mostly interested in its organizational placement and the actual interior layout of the vehicle?

[Manokan Republic]

There are three things to bare in mind about spacetime bending. The reason why it cloaks things so well is not because it's jut a cloaking device, but because you aren't even there. Literally you are bending space in such a way to where you don't exist in that place, and thus can't be seen. If there was a messed up piece of spacetime in front of you, and you stuck your arm out in it, to you it would appear as if it's completely normal, even if it's really in 6000 different places. In the same vein, you literally don't see the middle of a wormhole, just the two end pieces. You're essentially dissapearing in to a void.

The second thing is it bends light. Light is moving around you, rather than you redirecting it. You aren't sending a fake signal, you are literally bending the light around you; to any observer, a machine or what have you, it appears completely normal, even if the light is bend around in complex ways. Third, because of it, it's ideal to mask things in space. One obvious way we can tell if a planet or something is somewhere, or a sun etc. is by it bending the light around it, thus giving us an idea of what exactly is there, as light is bent by gravity. With spacetime bending, you literally are exploiting this effect yourself, and thus can make it impossible for you to be seen or even interacted with. It would also work as a forcefield, literally redirecting bullets around you, or any physical object, or allowing you to move through another object, like say a planet. For all we know, a wormhole is cutting through earth right now, or is nearby, and we just can't see it for this reason. It literally warps everything around it out of the way. It would redirect all electromagnetic radiation, light, infrared, radar, basically any means of detecting something, and even counteract gravity itself, making it literally impossible to detect something there. You wouldn't just be invisible, you literally wouldn't be in that exact location. You would just be peering through another wormhole that lets you see out, and the only hope of detection would be if they could see through that tiny opening.

Any UFO capable of long distance FTL space travel would also have a perfect cloaking device via it's hyper drive.

The thing about spacetime bending is a region where spacetime is sufficiently distorted light can no longer leave it is no longer in casual contact with the rest of the universe. It is an event horizon. And nothing can ever leave a region of space enclosed by an event horizon, ever. Even deactivating the drive would not permit escape because time dilation between the inside and outside would be infinite, if the cloak was engaged for any amount of time inside, an infinity would elapse outside. Once activated the vessel could never return to its original universe.

The only way back is to reverse time.

There is an entrance and exist, and this is how you go between such places. Some call the end a "whitehole" of a blackhole but, basically that's how you get in and out. There's a very specific, basically unnoticeable entrance and exit unless looking at it exactly perfectly, hence the difficulty in ever discovering a natural wormhole, even if millions exist.

[New Vihenia]

Artillery can kill tanks so good...

[Austrasien]

There is an entrance and exist, and this is how you go between such places. Some call the end a "whitehole" of a blackhole but, basically that's how you get in and out. There's a very specific, basically unnoticeable entrance and exit unless looking at it exactly perfectly, hence the difficulty in ever discovering a natural wormhole, even if millions exist.

A white hole is a time-reversed black hole. Likely the only way to ever observe one would be to watch the history of a black hole on rewind. They also aren't invisible, quite the opposite, as reversed black holes they spit out mass-energy constantly. A wormhole is not a white hole.

If there is a path through which light can enter and leave, it is not a cloak, because light can enter and leave. You would be able to see through a wormhole with the naked eye. They are not seen because all available information indicates wormholes could only be stabilized with negative mass. Which does not exist (unless you reverse time! This always comes up).



There is no way to cheat here. If light cannot pass between two regions of space they are not in casual contact. If they are not in casual contact they are separated by an event horizon. If they are separated by an event horizon then they never interact in any way at all, forever.

[The Manticoran Empire]

Hello! I hope this is an appropriate place to ask this sort of question,

I was wondering if anyone knows were to find literature on the Achzarit heavy APC, mostly interested in its organizational placement and the actual interior layout of the vehicle?

Hi. Not exactly a SME on military matters but I'm good with Google. I managed to only find a handful of images that showed limited aspects of the interior but it appears that the Achzarit has the troops sitting on benches along the walls, with the crew at the very front.


In terms of the basis of issue, this will require a little more research. Back to Google I go.

[New Vihenia]

So yeah, what is the difference between "Sniper grade" ammunition with regular one ?

and can there be a large caliber "sniper grade" ammo ? Like say 30 or 40mm ?

[The Manticoran Empire]

So yeah, what is the difference between "Sniper grade" ammunition with regular one ?

and can there be a large caliber "sniper grade" ammo ? Like say 30 or 40mm ?

Match Grade ammunition is basically ammunition that has been manufactured for competition shooting. They have a narrow tolerance, a high degree of accuracy compared to standard ammunition, and are also relative. There is no real definition for "Match Grade" so it's a relative term that is basically just more accurate bullets.

Theoretically you could make Match Grade autocannon rounds. Why you would want to, I don't know.

[Turuma]

Hello! I hope this is an appropriate place to ask this sort of question,

I was wondering if anyone knows were to find literature on the Achzarit heavy APC, mostly interested in its organizational placement and the actual interior layout of the vehicle?

Hi. Not exactly a SME on military matters but I'm good with Google. I managed to only find a handful of images that showed limited aspects of the interior but it appears that the Achzarit has the troops sitting on benches along the walls, with the crew at the very front.

In terms of the basis of issue, this will require a little more research. Back to Google I go.

Thank you very much! I wasn't having any luck googling around myself sadly

[Gallia-]

So yeah, what is the difference between "Sniper grade" ammunition with regular one ?

time consuming hand crafting by ammunition/ballistics specialists

[Triplebaconation]

Increasing the caliber will have the same effect as narrowing tolerances. A grain of propellant or bullet might make a noticeable difference on a small arms round. When the projectile and charge are far larger not so much.

[Grand Indochina]

Hello, can anyone review these ideas of mine and reality-check if they are feasible during a modern combat scenario, also leave me some explanations. Thank !

Tear Gas : They are not lethal but very effective in dispersing an angry crowd of troublemakers. Imagine these tear gas canisters can be use to clear a structure previously occupied by hostile forces, forcing the enemy to abandon the position due to how unpleasant the gas is.

Ballistic Shield : Come into two variations : Personal Shield (Half-body cover) and Heavy Shield (Full-body cover), both are designated for assault infantry and paramilitary force. While these shields aren't hard enough to withstand a shot from sniper rifle, they are still very effective in protecting the holder from common firearms, especially in urban combat.

Guided Demolition Vehicle : In the past, the Wehrmacht deployed these so-called Goliath Tracked Mine ( Leichter Ladungsträger Goliath ) in the frontline for either anti-tank and anti-infantry purposes. With technologies of the 21st Century, can this concept be recycle ? A remote-controlled vehicle strapped with explosive packages and commanded to drive itself toward your enemy is splendid.

[Spirit of Hope]

Hello, can anyone review these ideas of mine and reality-check if they are feasible during a modern combat scenario, also leave me some explanations. Thank !

Tear Gas : They are not lethal but very effective in dispersing an angry crowd of troublemakers. Imagine these tear gas canisters can be use to clear a structure previously occupied by hostile forces, forcing the enemy to abandon the position due to how unpleasant the gas is.

Ballistic Shield : Come into two variations : Personal Shield (Half-body cover) and Heavy Shield (Full-body cover), both are designated for assault infantry and paramilitary force. While these shields aren't hard enough to withstand a shot from sniper rifle, they are still very effective in protecting the holder from common firearms, especially in urban combat.

Guided Demolition Vehicle : In the past, the Wehrmacht deployed these so-called Goliath Tracked Mine ( Leichter Ladungsträger Goliath ) in the frontline for either anti-tank and anti-infantry purposes. With technologies of the 21st Century, can this concept be recycle ? A remote-controlled vehicle strapped with explosive packages and commanded to drive itself toward your enemy is splendid.

Tear gas can be defeated by wearing a gas mask, it is technically against the laws of war.

Shields only makes sense when you have an absolute firepower advantage, otherwise you were giving up firepower in the form of your own rifle for protection. In addition in large scale warfare shields don't provide as much protection as simply taking cover an increase the weight soldier has to carry. Not to mention that shield don't protect well against explosives or flanking fire.

Guided explosives exist, such as guided anti tank missiles.

[Taihei Tengoku]

Hello, can anyone review these ideas of mine and reality-check if they are feasible during a modern combat scenario, also leave me some explanations. Thank !

Tear Gas : They are not lethal but very effective in dispersing an angry crowd of troublemakers. Imagine these tear gas canisters can be use to clear a structure previously occupied by hostile forces, forcing the enemy to abandon the position due to how unpleasant the gas is.

Ballistic Shield : Come into two variations : Personal Shield (Half-body cover) and Heavy Shield (Full-body cover), both are designated for assault infantry and paramilitary force. While these shields aren't hard enough to withstand a shot from sniper rifle, they are still very effective in protecting the holder from common firearms, especially in urban combat.

Guided Demolition Vehicle : In the past, the Wehrmacht deployed these so-called Goliath Tracked Mine ( Leichter Ladungsträger Goliath ) in the frontline for either anti-tank and anti-infantry purposes. With technologies of the 21st Century, can this concept be recycle ? A remote-controlled vehicle strapped with explosive packages and commanded to drive itself toward your enemy is splendid.

1) Tear gas was used this way in Vietnam, most notably at Hue. JAGs can stuff it. Against a real army all it would do is to force them to fight with gas masks on (it's not nothing!)
2) Shields are useless against what actually kill infantry in close combat: bombs.
3) ISIS and Al-Qaeda already do this but in a more analog way

[The Manticoran Empire]

Hi. Not exactly a SME on military matters but I'm good with Google. I managed to only find a handful of images that showed limited aspects of the interior but it appears that the Achzarit has the troops sitting on benches along the walls, with the crew at the very front.

In terms of the basis of issue, this will require a little more research. Back to Google I go.

Thank you very much! I wasn't having any luck googling around myself sadly

I wasn't able to find much in the way of basis of issue for it. Since they are rebuilt T-55 hulls, I imagine that it is only a limited issue item. One or two brigades may have them. Most units are using different vehicles.

Overall, you can do your own basis of issue based on your own unit requirements.

[Turuma]

I wasn't able to find much in the way of basis of issue for it. Since they are rebuilt T-55 hulls, I imagine that it is only a limited issue item. One or two brigades may have them. Most units are using different vehicles.

Overall, you can do your own basis of issue based on your own unit requirements.

That makes sense, I was mostly just curious if they were specifically used by infantry units attached/part of larger armored units or anything like that but that makes sense

Another question: I remember reading somewhere that Soviet Mi-24 crews in Afghanistan would often carry extra ammunition in the troop compartments of their helicopters and it got me wondering, is this a fairly standard practice for attack helicopter units in general? Usuing general transport/utility helicopters if the attack helicopters lack transport capability? Are there any major disadvantages to this sort of practice?

[Theodosiya]

Artillery can kill tanks so good...


(Image)

Wonder about our infantry stronk, bamboo beat f-35 and J-20 army and civil attitude. Would Army send someone?

[Crookfur]

I wasn't able to find much in the way of basis of issue for it. Since they are rebuilt T-55 hulls, I imagine that it is only a limited issue item. One or two brigades may have them. Most units are using different vehicles.

Overall, you can do your own basis of issue based on your own unit requirements.

That makes sense, I was mostly just curious if they were specifically used by infantry units attached/part of larger armored units or anything like that but that makes sense

Another question: I remember reading somewhere that Soviet Mi-24 crews in Afghanistan would often carry extra ammunition in the troop compartments of their helicopters and it got me wondering, is this a fairly standard practice for attack helicopter units in general? Usuing general transport/utility helicopters if the attack helicopters lack transport capability? Are there any major disadvantages to this sort of practice?

Where utility helicopters are used in the attack role its not unknown for them to carry extra ammunition internally when weight and space allows. British tow equipped lynxs were supposed to carry or at least be able to carry a full set of 8 spare tows in the cabin. Puma socat is also supposed to be able carry a set of spare atgms IIRC. How often such a capability is used is debatable.
Medium and heavy lift helos are regularly used to carry ammo and fuel for attack helicopters although that's typically done by setting up FARPs for the attack helos to operate from. Basically a couple of chinook fly in a ground crew, all thier gear, some matting, ammo and a couple of fuel bladders before going off to lift the next vitally important thing.

[New Vihenia]

Theoretically you could make Match Grade autocannon rounds. Why you would want to, I don't know.

At some point i was thinking of a "precision gun" in autocannon caliber. So i have this "new" low observable attack helicopter "Lucia Hawkeye"



It is armed with missiles and that 30 mm autocannon. One exotic mission i think of is Assasination or direct support on special operations where perhaps more precise gunfire is needed. So the Helicopter will actually use her optics and then that 30mm gun to actually Snipe on enemy from maybe 3 Km away. Or perhaps UAV equipped with the "30mm precision gun".

Of course there always "kinetic kill" missile like the ginsu Hellfire or its Russian equivalent but yeah. That's what im thinking.

[Bears Armed]

Tear gas can be defeated by wearing a gas mask, it is technically against the laws of war.

Here in NS, G.A. legislation allows W.A. members to use chemical weapons (which would include tear gas) when defending their own territory.

[United Earthlings]

All very good points made about attempting to cloak a star let alone part of a star and its orbiting planets, so in that regard I've decided to simplify it down.

Less cloak as previously discussed and more obfuscating a planetary body or two.

26th century stealth, not invisible just difficult to detect.

Gravity really does seem to be the most overpowered of the space weapons though. With it you could ideally wrestle a star into compliance and then build a ship around it which would be fueled by it's output. Put the star in a big enough collar and then project tidal forces onto it with enough force to peel away the corona as it ignites and use that to power the ship. Could probably start with one of the smaller dead stars before working your way up to blue giants and whatnot.

For power generation itself that I think would be needed to create the amount of energy needed to enable a vessel to achieve FTL, I went with a science-fiction version of this complemented by various sized fusion reactors.

Gravity’s not the space weapons themselves, but provide power for the space weapons.

---

New Topic
Which course of action would be not only the most rational strategic course to pursue, but also the most cost effective on the first generation development of SLBMs in the late 1950s, early 1960s?

1. Option A: Deploy a short/mid range liquid fuel SLBM for deployment as earliest as possible starting in 1960, while development continues on a solid fuel SLBM version.
2. Option B: Delay construction on the first SSBNs until its clear the solid fuel SLBM project is successful. This results in the first SSBNs not being made operational until later in the 1960s starting sometime in 1962 or 1963, possibly even 1964.

[Turuma]

Where utility helicopters are used in the attack role its not unknown for them to carry extra ammunition internally when weight and space allows. British tow equipped lynxs were supposed to carry or at least be able to carry a full set of 8 spare tows in the cabin. Puma socat is also supposed to be able carry a set of spare atgms IIRC. How often such a capability is used is debatable.
Medium and heavy lift helos are regularly used to carry ammo and fuel for attack helicopters although that's typically done by setting up FARPs for the attack helos to operate from. Basically a couple of chinook fly in a ground crew, all thier gear, some matting, ammo and a couple of fuel bladders before going off to lift the next vitally important thing.

That makes sense!

Although I haven't found an RP region that suits my liking yet I'm hoping to have a large disputed island (my state is an island chain) play a significant role in my countries modern history, particularly in the 2000s when a major military modernization program was undertaken, and am playing around with the idea of making the creation of a large helicopter based strike force as being one of the later developments of this program. The island is largely no mans land with settlements on the coasts being controlled by the respective disputing states and sporadic low level conflict being ongoing. Geographically it's closest real world equivalent would be something like Saipan.

The reason I mention all of that is that it leads into my second fallow up question: Are there any good manuals detailing heiliborn infantry operations/ organization? I've based my military off the organizational layout given in FM-100-63 'Infantry based opposing force' and obviously that manual does not have organizational tables for helicopter units. The disputed island can be accessed by ground forces by a long chain of sandbars and atolls which connect it to the Turuman home islands but this obviously is very valuable to attack, tide dependent and a major choke point so the idea, assuming it makes sense otherwise, would be to have a helicopter unit which could overwhelm the hostile forces on the island, in conjunction with paratroopers and marine landings in a surprise attack in order to secure a foot hold for ground forces to later reinforce.