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NS Military Realism Consultation Thread Vol. 11.0

A place to put national factbooks, embassy exchanges, and other information regarding the nations of the world. [In character]

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Manokan Republic
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Postby Manokan Republic » Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:04 pm

Crysuko wrote:A small question, regarding the viability of guerilla warfare in urban environments. Is it possible? Or would it be too easy for them to be cornered and flushed out, or would it work due to the attackers fading out through sewers, side streets and alleys.

It depends on the type of Guerrilla warfare but, yes it is easily possible and in many ways even easier in Urban environments as you have more places to hide. Like usual guerrillas tend to be worsed equipped, armed, trained and supported (with logistics) than normal troops so, they tend to fair worse against professional military's and suffer heavy losses for this reason, but there's no reason why it can't be done. In some ways urban environments are ideal for guerrilla warfare, as with a professional military moving in with heavy vehicles has to follow very specific and predetermined paths, such as on roads, the guerrilla does not. The incredibly restrictive nature makes it difficult to move around in heavy vehicles like tanks or APC's, and so it makes them vulnerable to counterattacks while they are practically sitting ducks. IED's placed in the roads, ambushes from inside buildings (which are good defensive terrain and stop bullets pretty well, especially if made from concrete/rammed earth), attacks when hidden behind the natural clutter of the city, plenty of situations where armored vehicles can become easily trapped, and the sad fact that it's packed full of civilians making moral professional military's reluctant to strike (but not say, an evil dictator), gives a pretty big advantage to the guerrilla. The main thing is, unless you just decide to start smashing through buildings or other obstacles, which is, still quite slow, you are stuck on the roads, which makes your actions predictable and thus, vulnerable. Aircraft are generally better, such as helicopters, but suffer from their high exposure making them vulnerable to small arms fires and particularly RPG's. So you sacrifice armor for maneuverability, meaning there is no real clear advantage.

Something like a mech robot could counter both problems of protection and maneuverability, or a powered exoskeleton, but this is likely a far ways away in the future.
Last edited by Manokan Republic on Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Manokan Republic
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Postby Manokan Republic » Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:21 pm

So one thing I've been thinking of recently is that you could make a mech-like walking robot if it was designed to be supported by something like helicopter blades. Basically the idea is, a walking robot would be kind of too slow or weak to really do anything, and helicopters are both expensive, and flying a helicopter is difficult to control close to the ground in part due to the ground effect, danger of the blades and it's general lack of armor, but a combination of the two could resolve some issues. The main idea with a mech is that it would be more maneuverable in rough terrain, but also have fairly heavy armor, so it would act like a very maneuverable armored vehicle. Like how horses or motorcycles are used in urban areas to maneuver around other vehicles and rough terrain that's difficult for vehicles to drive on, the idea of a mech robot is, primarily in maneuverability. Helicopters or aircraft that fly close to the ground are too exposed to enemy fire, and with an armored vehicle you can be behind cover or better armored, as you can afford to be heavier and don't consume much fuel when not moving.

It's kind of amazing to me that mech robots are not yet a thing (despite stuff like elephants existing), but helicopters are, despite it in theory taking far more power to actually fly. If supported by legs to give better stability and reduce the energy needed for a helicopter blade to keep something afloat, then it stands to reason a combination of the two things, could work out altright. I'm not sure how well exactly, but it is an idea. It probably would consume a lot of fuel to move around but, it would be less than a helicopter, and as long as the legs could keep it upright on it's own, it wouldn't consume much to just sit there and not move, making it possible to park it. With electric motors powering the blades instead they could turn on and off easily and be powered by the main engine which also provides electricity to, the legs. This would be some kind of hybrid electric design, using diesel fuel via a generator to power the electronic motors and whatnot. The basic idea is to improve the mech by giving it relatively small and weak helicopter blades that help keep it afloat or move quickly. The legs main goal would be just to keep it stable or upright during it's movement.



So far this is like the closest thing I've seen to the idea, I'm sure someone else has thought of it before, there's just not a lot about it anywhere.
https://www.wired.com/story/this-bird-l ... -two-legs/
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Last edited by Manokan Republic on Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Taihei Tengoku
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Postby Taihei Tengoku » Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:10 pm

Crysuko wrote:A small question, regarding the viability of guerilla warfare in urban environments. Is it possible? Or would it be too easy for them to be cornered and flushed out, or would it work due to the attackers fading out through sewers, side streets and alleys.

It is possible to have guerillas in cities. They'd lose, though.
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Postby Danternoust » Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:25 pm

Hmm. Air-Land-Sea-Space-Society Battle? Did I miss anything?

I think a single city is too small to be considered as battlespace, and a snide quip that the battle is lost before it begins fails to consider alternatives if the opponents seeks to win.
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Postby Bears Armed » Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:29 am

Crysuko wrote:A small question, regarding the viability of guerilla warfare in urban environments. Is it possible? Or would it be too easy for them to be cornered and flushed out, or would it work due to the attackers fading out through sewers, side streets and alleys.

If you mean actual guerrilla warfare, rather than just smaller-scale terrorist activity, then that depends on how concerned their opponents are about civilian casualties and collateral damage. Repressive regimes might simply level as much of the city as seemed necessary to suppress the guerrillas (e.g. the Nazis at Warsaw, 1944) whereas democracies -- especially if news media that hey don't control were monitoring the situation -- would probably be more constrained...
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The JELLEAIN Republic
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Postby The JELLEAIN Republic » Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:37 am

So what’s the main organization tree for army’s.

Like army, division, battalion etc...


Also, what’s the heaviest possible (and still effective/precise) urban warfare setup ?
May the autocorrect be with you...
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The JELLEAIN Republic
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Postby The JELLEAIN Republic » Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:40 am

Manokan Republic wrote:So one thing I've been thinking of recently is that you could make a mech-like walking robot if it was designed to be supported by something like helicopter blades. Basically the idea is, a walking robot would be kind of too slow or weak to really do anything, and helicopters are both expensive, and flying a helicopter is difficult to control close to the ground in part due to the ground effect, danger of the blades and it's general lack of armor, but a combination of the two could resolve some issues. The main idea with a mech is that it would be more maneuverable in rough terrain, but also have fairly heavy armor, so it would act like a very maneuverable armored vehicle. Like how horses or motorcycles are used in urban areas to maneuver around other vehicles and rough terrain that's difficult for vehicles to drive on, the idea of a mech robot is, primarily in maneuverability. Helicopters or aircraft that fly close to the ground are too exposed to enemy fire, and with an armored vehicle you can be behind cover or better armored, as you can afford to be heavier and don't consume much fuel when not moving.

It's kind of amazing to me that mech robots are not yet a thing (despite stuff like elephants existing), but helicopters are, despite it in theory taking far more power to actually fly. If supported by legs to give better stability and reduce the energy needed for a helicopter blade to keep something afloat, then it stands to reason a combination of the two things, could work out altright. I'm not sure how well exactly, but it is an idea. It probably would consume a lot of fuel to move around but, it would be less than a helicopter, and as long as the legs could keep it upright on it's own, it wouldn't consume much to just sit there and not move, making it possible to park it. With electric motors powering the blades instead they could turn on and off easily and be powered by the main engine which also provides electricity to, the legs. This would be some kind of hybrid electric design, using diesel fuel via a generator to power the electronic motors and whatnot. The basic idea is to improve the mech by giving it relatively small and weak helicopter blades that help keep it afloat or move quickly. The legs main goal would be just to keep it stable or upright during it's movement.



So far this is like the closest thing I've seen to the idea, I'm sure someone else has thought of it before, there's just not a lot about it anywhere.
https://www.wired.com/story/this-bird-l ... -two-legs/



But, but, we diddnt invent elephants...
Also, you mean bipedal ?

Wouldn’t it make more sense to have a heavily armored magnetic hovercraft that can reach some kind of altitude ?
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Danternoust
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Postby Danternoust » Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:49 am

The JELLEAIN Republic wrote:So what’s the main organization tree for army’s.

Like army, division, battalion etc...


Also, what’s the heaviest possible (and still effective/precise) urban warfare setup ?

Organization depends largely on the short term memory capacity of the commanding officer, the more subordinate units, the greater the difficulty in organizing.

The heaviest possible urban warfare setup is a giant armored bulldozer with a cannon mounted on top.

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Postby Austrasien » Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:58 am

The JELLEAIN Republic wrote:So what’s the main organization tree for army’s.

Like army, division, battalion etc...


Typically in a modern army: division, brigade/regiment, battalion, company, platoon, section/squad. Levels above division are increasingly just administrative apparatuses as they can be responsible for country-sized areas.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_ ... _hierarchy

The JELLEAIN Republic wrote:Also, what’s the heaviest possible (and still effective/precise) urban warfare setup ?


There isn't a clear need for specialized urban combat units. Typical units with a 1:3, 1:2 or 2:2 tank/infantry ratio perform fine in urban settings. The main adjustments needed are artillery and engineers need to be dispersed among smaller units (battalion/company) rather than held at higher levels.
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Gallia-
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Postby Gallia- » Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:11 am

says the stosstruppen nerd what happened to assault smgs and flashbangs for urban fites

galla has hapcs which are basically saifv without a power turret and more room for rockets, plows, and mine flails, with flamethrower teams inside, for breaking down urban strongpoints

they work with the big flame/thermobaric MRLs which are basically SLUFAEs with full diameter rocket motors for a few kms (id hope) range; maybe there's a 3 meter SLUFAE with a range of like 8 km or something

that's as far as it gets for "urban assault troops" tho: just the ordinary maximum firepower CBT (cock and ball torture combat breaching team) guys showing up

its probably based on fuzzy memories of reading about the combat company team organization in mogadishu that was supposed to act as a QRF for the rangers/deltas but the SECDEF was like "no you dont need that shit" or something lame + some breaching/assault troops
Last edited by Gallia- on Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Triplebaconation » Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:31 am

Arkandros wrote:
United Earthlings wrote:
You might of heard of this one before, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

That's incorrect, I refer you to Exhibit A [snip for image]
Your Move :roll:


https://academic.oup.com/mnras/article/152/1/75/2604549
According to Mr. Hawking, a miniature black hole would decay rapidly, and would do so likely before it could consume a stellar mass (in accordance with calculations for hawking radiation decay rates). The alternative is that you are carrying around a black hole weighing approximately 100 quadrillion kilograms, which would consume the sun in something like 10 million years.
EDIT: The alternative to this, of course, is that you are implying you can generate in excess of 3x10^33 Joules spontaneously in the heart of a star to produce a black hole massing 1*10^14 kg, which is, quite frankly, absurdly preposterous. This is about 100 times the entire daily energy output of the sun.


I've been thinking about this a bit, and have a little more musing.

Black holes are fairly easy math. We were able to predict their existence and qualities to a high degree of accuracy before they were actually observed. Using a "quantum singularity" to destroy a star is unjustified technobabble, no different than Starkiller Base, that red goo from Star Trek, or (on NS) that Decepticon guy using Energon cubes.

Things become much more interesting when your technobabble has more justification.

I'm not criticizing Purpelia for this choice, but note how easily he discards relativity. This is fairly common in science fiction because most people like FTL travel. But FTL travel implies that either relativity or causality is wrong.

Relativity is an esoteric and non-intuitive concept, and getting rid of it makes for relatable and easy to understand universe. The people in Star Wars don't live in a society much different than us, they can just go to another planet with the ease of us going to another state.

But what if you get rid of causality? As Manokan demonstrates frequently, this is a very powerful tool, and it makes for very interesting sufficiently advanced technology.

From Iron Sunrise:
Just outside the expanding light cone of the present a star died, iron-bombed.

Something—some exotic force of unnatural origin—twisted a knot in space, enclosing the heart of a stellar furnace. A huge loop of superstrings twisted askew, expanding and contracting until the core of the star floated adrift in a pocket universe where the timelike dimension was rolled shut on the scale of the Planck length, and another dimension—one of the closed ones, folded shut on themselves, implied by the standard model of physics—replaced it. An enormous span of time reeled past within the pocket universe, while outside a handful of seconds ticked by.

From the perspective of the drifting core, the rest of the universe appeared to recede to infinity, vanishing past an event horizon beyond which it was destined to stay until the zone of expansion collapsed. The blazing ball of gas lit up its own private cosmos, then slowly faded. Time passed, uncountable amounts of time wrapped up in an eyeblink from the perspective of the external universe. The stellar core cooled and contracted, dimming. Eventually a black dwarf hung alone, cooling toward absolute zero. Fusion didn't stop but ran incredibly slowly, mediated by quantum tunneling under conditions of extreme cold. Over a span billions of times greater than that which had elapsed since the big bang in the universe outside, light nuclei merged, tunneling across the high quantum wall of their electron orbitals. Heavier elements disintegrated slowly, fissioning and then decaying down to iron. Mass migrated until, by the end of the process, a billion trillion years down the line, the star was a single crystal of iron crushed down into a sphere a few thousand kilometers in diameter, spinning slowly in a cold vacuum only trillionths of a degree above absolute zero.

Then the external force that had created the pocket universe went into reverse, snapping shut the pocket and dropping the dense spherical crystal into the hole at the core of the star, less than thirty seconds after the bomb had gone off. And the gates of hell opened.


If you can violate causality, even locally, you can kill a star easily. Or you can have arbitrarily large amounts of power, either thermal or computational. You can use that computational power to reverse entropy and have cloaking devices that aren't just silly force fields.

Another alternative is ontological sufficiently advanced technology. Suppose you could alter the local strong nuclear force so Helium-2 nuclei are stable. This would do in a star almost instantly.

Then there are always strangelets...

Anyway, if your technology is basically bullshit, that's fine. Most science fiction is, and it doesn't really detract from it much. But if you have a basic understanding of how things work, you can postulate interesting space magic that isn't just random futuristic words strung together.
Last edited by Triplebaconation on Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:35 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Gallia-
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Postby Gallia- » Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:52 am

strangelets and vacuum bombs are just space nukes rly pls ban

im just trying to make an alderson disc zoo for god's sake

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Last edited by Gallia- on Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Triplebaconation
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Postby Triplebaconation » Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:23 am

Like I said, this is just philosophical musing. We're able to understand how an Alderson disk would work because we're very very good at modelling how objects with mass and energy interact in time and space.

What we currently understand much less is why objects have mass, why time seemingly flows in one direction, why space even exists.

If you have a civilization that can understand and control the why, you have a much stronger basis for technology indistinguishable from magic than simply changing how things work to something contrary to our current understanding by authorial fiat.

This is a fine distinction, as the end results are the same, and I suppose it's ultimately a question of flavor.

Carry on with the helicopter mech robots. I'm going to sit this one out!
Last edited by Triplebaconation on Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Purpelia
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Postby Purpelia » Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:03 am

Triplebaconation wrote:I'm not criticizing Purpelia for this choice, but note how easily he discards relativity. This is fairly common in science fiction because most people like FTL travel. But FTL travel implies that either relativity or causality is wrong.

Causality. It's hinted throughout that RPG where this whole setting started that time does not really behave the same as we expect it to. Among other things my empire had abandoned refrigeration in favor of just freezing food (cooked, warm and ready to eat) in time. And although such technology does not make a showing in my newer works in the setting I am keeping the thread open.

The best way to look at it is that in my work cause causes effect quite enough times that you don't really stop to think about it.
Last edited by Purpelia on Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:07 am, edited 2 times in total.
Purpelia does not reflect my actual world views. In fact, the vast majority of Purpelian cannon is meant to shock and thus deliberately insane. I just like playing with the idea of a country of madmen utterly convinced that everyone else are the barbarians. So play along or not but don't ever think it's for real.



The above post contains hyperbole, metaphoric language, embellishment and exaggeration. It may also include badly translated figures of speech and misused idioms. Analyze accordingly.

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Postby Triplebaconation » Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:17 pm

Well your setting sounded much more interesting than UE's from the get-go.

The point is taking full advantage of the implications of things. UE, conditioned by mainstream science fiction, sees a black hole and thinks superweapon. The smart guys are using one for command and control so he's never a threat in the first place.
Last edited by Triplebaconation on Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Danternoust
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Postby Danternoust » Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:55 pm

Gallia- wrote:black holes are houses really

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New Vihenia
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Postby New Vihenia » Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:07 am

So here is the thing.

I got a handbook, it's unfortunately restricted so i cant share here :x. It's about operations of Radar.

It is said that hmm kind of universal thing that generator power sizing for a radar must be about 2.5 times the actual required power of the equipment.

As example we have a radar with 60 KW of transmitted power.. efficiency of say 30% So it needs about 200 KW of power. In turn generator to run that radar must have rating of about 500 KW and for redundancy, there has to be 3 of it.

The question is.. is the application of such rule of thumb universal.. e.g it can be applied to other electronics too.

IF it indeed universal.. I will size my tank's generator, shipboard generator etc based on it.
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Gallia-
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Postby Gallia- » Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:07 am

I'd imagine they mean "universal" for different types, applications, and installations of radars.

My desktop does not require 2 kilowatts to play Koikatsu Party, for example, although its rated power consumption is probably around 400-500W. It's quite fine operating 24/7 with a 750W power supply.

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Postby United Earthlings » Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:44 am

Arkandros wrote:https://academic.oup.com/mnras/article/152/1/75/2604549
According to Mr. Hawking, a miniature black hole would decay rapidly, and would do so likely before it could consume a stellar mass (in accordance with calculations for hawking radiation decay rates). The alternative is that you are carrying around a black hole weighing approximately 100 quadrillion kilograms, which would consume the sun in something like 10 million years.
EDIT: The alternative to this, of course, is that you are implying you can generate in excess of 3x10^33 Joules spontaneously in the heart of a star to produce a black hole massing 1*10^14 kg, which is, quite frankly, absurdly preposterous. This is about 100 times the entire daily energy output of the sun.


Since its only a fictional idea at this time, the only thing I can say with certainty is that if I did ever use that idea to advance a plot line, I would hope the writing to the reader would come off as believable and would serve to advance the story to the next chapter.

I'd leave it to future readers to decide if the writing was ultimately preposterous or not.

Triplebaconation wrote:Since he's said he uses fusion power that implies a very interesting ship design.

(This, of course, is the primary problem with the Kardashev scale for fictional universes. As the tech becomes softer the more useless it becomes.)

{Also the idea that a K2 civilization would be a mystery to its neighbors is kind of silly. The scale is at its heart a measure of the ease of detecting civilizations.}


Fusion power is one of the sources my fictional future sci-fi civilization utilizes, but it's not the only source of power at its disposal.

That’s where good writing comes in and does the mystery serve the story well. I’m sure you’ve read at least one science fiction novel, yet your acting like you haven’t. All of a sudden me alone abandoning realism at times is the world’s greatest sin. That’s the impression I’m getting so far from you, while that’s correct or not remains to be seen.

That's not the point. If you give yourself space magic and assume the other guy has nothing like it, it makes for very boring battles like the one in your vignette.


That’s exactly the point, why are you assuming that I haven’t already figured out that the other person is also using various forms of space magic. By you know, having a conversation beforehand to establish some ground rules and an outline of where to take the story even before the RP began.

If you prefer I could write an imperfect vignette where my civilization gets curb stumped in one battle after another. Would you find that more exciting? Because what I wrote previously was nothing more than a thought exercise, a good collaborative story would inquire input from others by definition.

Ambassador Xarblax sighed. There was no doubt about the graviton fluctuations observed by the monitor stations. Civilization 23794 was almost certainly experimenting with quantum singularity weaponry. Xe assimilated the full datastream to his xybervisor and stepped out the door of his workspace into the Galactic Assembly building 20,000 light-years away. Time to present xis case.

For over two cycles the Galactic Assembly had kept the peace in the galaxy. It was clear Civilization 23794 was an impending, if certainly not imminent, threat to that peace. Classification Xenophobic Militarist Isolationist. The kind of civilization that ignored diplomatic messages. The kind that destroyed freedom of navigation patrols. The kind that would eventually and inevitably become a threat. The Assembly always took a long view - the vote for quarantine was overwhelming.

"Let the interfogulation begin."

On each planet of the former United Commonwealth, beings looked to the skies in horror. Where once the stars shined as a billion warm beacons promising unlimited energy and expansion, there was nothing. Each star system was now a universe to itself, quite alone - forever.


Space magic!


That space magic is fine with me as I have no problem working within that premise to try to tell an interesting short story.

“43 Solar Rotations after the event known as the interfogulation…

For the past 43 Solar Rotations that had passed for the Galactic Assembly, where the peaceful Civilization once upon a time known as simply number 23794 reside, only a vast devoid sector of the galaxy now existed.

Meanwhile, in its isolated pocketed mini-verse, a great disturbing change had undergone the UCP, for what had once been the core driving force of beliefs for the inhabitants of the Commonwealth that drove them towards the extreme madness of developing every more powerful weapons technology had finally reached its apex. Their fears of the unknown that someday a more powerful civilization would simply erase them from existence had finally been validated. Into their long descent of blissful insanity they found a new purpose as a species, vengeance. For little did the Galactic Assembly know, that while in their haste to quarantine the known-unknown threat, they had gravely miscalculated the result such an action would have on an unstable sector of space to be isolated into a void of infinite emptiness. For while the passage of 43 sols of time seemed of little consequence to the Galactic Assembly and the universe as a whole, for the UCP, time had not been as kind of a mistress, for in its distortion of the very fabric of the space-time continuum 20,000 cycles would pass. 20,000 reasons to seek their vengeance upon the universe itself.

On the final day of the final second after 43 sols of oppression, a massive release of energy, that could be seen from one end of the universe to the other, that burned with the force of a trillion stars going Supernova in unison, a massive interdimensional gateway had been created at the center of what was once the claimed space of the interstellar empire known as the United Commonwealth of Planets. Thru this gateway emerge a single artificial spherical structure with a diameter of 3.04 AU, the Commonwealth had broken thru their false imprisonment and so began their task of preparing their invasion force to descend upon their nearest galactic neighbors as the hordes of lore bent on annihilating everything in their path.

Had the Galactic Assembly in their infinite wisdom merely created their own self-filling prophecy?”


There you go, Space Magic and the beginnings of a good story…Where it goes from there is open to endless possibilities.

Triplebaconation wrote:Well your setting sounded much more interesting than UE's from the get-go.

The point is taking full advantage of the implications of things. UE, conditioned by mainstream science fiction, sees a black hole and thinks superweapon. The smart guys are using one for command and control so he's never a threat in the first place.


Since I never provided the setting for my sci-fi civilization to begin with, judging something you haven’t even read or seen yet is generally considered bad manners, judging it in addition harshly well that’s on a whole other level.

That is what happens when you judge things without all the factual information first. If you would have asked for the complete setting of my sci-fi civilization, you would have known that I see black holes or more specifically the more vague and open ended term used in fiction, Quantum singularities as the fictional basis from which the power and technology of the UCP is derived from. Instead you’ve done nothing, but make assumptions about my fictional civilization, wrongly I might add.

Would you care to try again and I don’t know maybe actually ask me some questions this time about what I’ve created so far or would you prefer to continue making assumptions?
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Welcome to the NSverse, where funding priorities and spending levels may seem very odd, to say the least.

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Danternoust
Diplomat
 
Posts: 729
Founded: Jan 20, 2019
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Danternoust » Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:14 am

my space fighters are single-stage space craft using dual-mode ion engine capable of expelling ions in air or space

https://www.aerosociety.com/news/electr ... n-the-air/

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Triplebaconation
Senator
 
Posts: 3940
Founded: Feb 22, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Triplebaconation » Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:48 pm

United Earthlings wrote:
Arkandros wrote:https://academic.oup.com/mnras/article/152/1/75/2604549
According to Mr. Hawking, a miniature black hole would decay rapidly, and would do so likely before it could consume a stellar mass (in accordance with calculations for hawking radiation decay rates). The alternative is that you are carrying around a black hole weighing approximately 100 quadrillion kilograms, which would consume the sun in something like 10 million years.
EDIT: The alternative to this, of course, is that you are implying you can generate in excess of 3x10^33 Joules spontaneously in the heart of a star to produce a black hole massing 1*10^14 kg, which is, quite frankly, absurdly preposterous. This is about 100 times the entire daily energy output of the sun.


Since its only a fictional idea at this time, the only thing I can say with certainty is that if I did ever use that idea to advance a plot line, I would hope the writing to the reader would come off as believable and would serve to advance the story to the next chapter.


Since these are fictional ideas with arbitrary characteristics that defy what we know about miniature black holes, what exactly were we supposed to google again? Wookiepedia? Memory Beta?

United Earthlings wrote:Fusion power is one of the sources my fictional future sci-fi civilization utilizes, but it's not the only source of power at its disposal.

That’s where good writing comes in and does the mystery serve the story well. I’m sure you’ve read at least one science fiction novel, yet your acting like you haven’t. All of a sudden me alone abandoning realism at times is the world’s greatest sin. That’s the impression I’m getting so far from you, while that’s correct or not remains to be seen.


Not at all. I don't care about realism much. For example, I have three main science fiction settings I doodle with myself. One is diamond hard. Another is based on 50s and 60s pulp like Heinlein and H. Beam Piper. The third is distant future where speciated descendants of humanity live amongst the monumental ruins of ancient megastructures and space princesses wear weird constructivist hats like Aelita.

United Earthlings wrote:If you prefer I could write an imperfect vignette where my civilization gets curb stumped in one battle after another. Would you find that more exciting? Because what I wrote previously was nothing more than a thought exercise, a good collaborative story would inquire input from others by definition.


What makes the story {UE} isn't that the UCP wins, it's the way they win effortlessly against an opponent assumed to be helpless against the brilliant UCP strategy of using invisible ships and instantaneous acceleration.

I can conduct a thought experiment where I play chess against a toddler using nothing but pawns against my army of queens, but it wouldn't be very useful or interesting.

Powerful space magic or lack of realism by itself doesn't make a Mary Sue. To be blunt, it's the way you constantly go on about the overwhelming superiority of your various rather bland Commonwealths. It's clearly authorial insert.

United Earthlings wrote:On the final day of the final second after 43 sols of oppression, a massive release of energy, that could be seen from one end of the universe to the other, that burned with the force of a trillion stars going Supernova in unison, a massive interdimensional gateway had been created at the center of what was once the claimed space of the interstellar empire known as the United Commonwealth of Planets. Thru this gateway emerge a single artificial spherical structure with a diameter of 3.04 AU, the Commonwealth had broken thru their false imprisonment and so began their task of preparing their invasion force to descend upon their nearest galactic neighbors as the hordes of lore bent on annihilating everything in their path.


That's not the way interfogulatory spheres work. Maybe try Google?

United Earthlings wrote:That is what happens when you judge things without all the factual information first. If you would have asked for the complete setting of my sci-fi civilization, you would have known that I see black holes or more specifically the more vague and open ended term used in fiction, Quantum singularities as the fictional basis from which the power and technology of the UCP is derived from. Instead you’ve done nothing, but make assumptions about my fictional civilization, wrongly I might add.


You're assuming I'm basing my opinion (which is only an opinion) on your most recent posts instead of the various tidbits you've released over the years. These are more than enough to tell me I personally wouldn't find it interesting. Sorry I forgot you used quantum singularities!

United Earthlings wrote:Would you care to try again and I don’t know maybe actually ask me some questions this time about what I’ve created so far


No.
Last edited by Triplebaconation on Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:12 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Proverbs 23:9.

Things are a bit larger than you appear to think, my friend.

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The JELLEAIN Republic
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1517
Founded: Jul 15, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby The JELLEAIN Republic » Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:12 pm

Triplebaconation wrote:
Arkandros wrote:
https://academic.oup.com/mnras/article/152/1/75/2604549
According to Mr. Hawking, a miniature black hole would decay rapidly, and would do so likely before it could consume a stellar mass (in accordance with calculations for hawking radiation decay rates). The alternative is that you are carrying around a black hole weighing approximately 100 quadrillion kilograms, which would consume the sun in something like 10 million years.
EDIT: The alternative to this, of course, is that you are implying you can generate in excess of 3x10^33 Joules spontaneously in the heart of a star to produce a black hole massing 1*10^14 kg, which is, quite frankly, absurdly preposterous. This is about 100 times the entire daily energy output of the sun.


I've been thinking about this a bit, and have a little more musing.

Black holes are fairly easy math. We were able to predict their existence and qualities to a high degree of accuracy before they were actually observed. Using a "quantum singularity" to destroy a star is unjustified technobabble, no different than Starkiller Base, that red goo from Star Trek, or (on NS) that Decepticon guy using Energon cubes.

Things become much more interesting when your technobabble has more justification.

I'm not criticizing Purpelia for this choice, but note how easily he discards relativity. This is fairly common in science fiction because most people like FTL travel. But FTL travel implies that either relativity or causality is wrong.

Relativity is an esoteric and non-intuitive concept, and getting rid of it makes for relatable and easy to understand universe. The people in Star Wars don't live in a society much different than us, they can just go to another planet with the ease of us going to another state.

But what if you get rid of causality? As Manokan demonstrates frequently, this is a very powerful tool, and it makes for very interesting sufficiently advanced technology.

From Iron Sunrise:
Just outside the expanding light cone of the present a star died, iron-bombed.

Something—some exotic force of unnatural origin—twisted a knot in space, enclosing the heart of a stellar furnace. A huge loop of superstrings twisted askew, expanding and contracting until the core of the star floated adrift in a pocket universe where the timelike dimension was rolled shut on the scale of the Planck length, and another dimension—one of the closed ones, folded shut on themselves, implied by the standard model of physics—replaced it. An enormous span of time reeled past within the pocket universe, while outside a handful of seconds ticked by.

From the perspective of the drifting core, the rest of the universe appeared to recede to infinity, vanishing past an event horizon beyond which it was destined to stay until the zone of expansion collapsed. The blazing ball of gas lit up its own private cosmos, then slowly faded. Time passed, uncountable amounts of time wrapped up in an eyeblink from the perspective of the external universe. The stellar core cooled and contracted, dimming. Eventually a black dwarf hung alone, cooling toward absolute zero. Fusion didn't stop but ran incredibly slowly, mediated by quantum tunneling under conditions of extreme cold. Over a span billions of times greater than that which had elapsed since the big bang in the universe outside, light nuclei merged, tunneling across the high quantum wall of their electron orbitals. Heavier elements disintegrated slowly, fissioning and then decaying down to iron. Mass migrated until, by the end of the process, a billion trillion years down the line, the star was a single crystal of iron crushed down into a sphere a few thousand kilometers in diameter, spinning slowly in a cold vacuum only trillionths of a degree above absolute zero.

Then the external force that had created the pocket universe went into reverse, snapping shut the pocket and dropping the dense spherical crystal into the hole at the core of the star, less than thirty seconds after the bomb had gone off. And the gates of hell opened.


If you can violate causality, even locally, you can kill a star easily. Or you can have arbitrarily large amounts of power, either thermal or computational. You can use that computational power to reverse entropy and have cloaking devices that aren't just silly force fields.

Another alternative is ontological sufficiently advanced technology. Suppose you could alter the local strong nuclear force so Helium-2 nuclei are stable. This would do in a star almost instantly.

Then there are always strangelets...

Anyway, if your technology is basically bullshit, that's fine. Most science fiction is, and it doesn't really detract from it much. But if you have a basic understanding of how things work, you can postulate interesting space magic that isn't just random futuristic words strung together.



FTL = bend space around you.
May the autocorrect be with you...
Cannot think of a name wrote:It's a narrative, and narratives don't require masterminds or persian cats.
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Manokan Republic
Minister
 
Posts: 2504
Founded: Dec 15, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Manokan Republic » Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:16 pm

The JELLEAIN Republic wrote:
Manokan Republic wrote:So one thing I've been thinking of recently is that you could make a mech-like walking robot if it was designed to be supported by something like helicopter blades. Basically the idea is, a walking robot would be kind of too slow or weak to really do anything, and helicopters are both expensive, and flying a helicopter is difficult to control close to the ground in part due to the ground effect, danger of the blades and it's general lack of armor, but a combination of the two could resolve some issues. The main idea with a mech is that it would be more maneuverable in rough terrain, but also have fairly heavy armor, so it would act like a very maneuverable armored vehicle. Like how horses or motorcycles are used in urban areas to maneuver around other vehicles and rough terrain that's difficult for vehicles to drive on, the idea of a mech robot is, primarily in maneuverability. Helicopters or aircraft that fly close to the ground are too exposed to enemy fire, and with an armored vehicle you can be behind cover or better armored, as you can afford to be heavier and don't consume much fuel when not moving.

It's kind of amazing to me that mech robots are not yet a thing (despite stuff like elephants existing), but helicopters are, despite it in theory taking far more power to actually fly. If supported by legs to give better stability and reduce the energy needed for a helicopter blade to keep something afloat, then it stands to reason a combination of the two things, could work out altright. I'm not sure how well exactly, but it is an idea. It probably would consume a lot of fuel to move around but, it would be less than a helicopter, and as long as the legs could keep it upright on it's own, it wouldn't consume much to just sit there and not move, making it possible to park it. With electric motors powering the blades instead they could turn on and off easily and be powered by the main engine which also provides electricity to, the legs. This would be some kind of hybrid electric design, using diesel fuel via a generator to power the electronic motors and whatnot. The basic idea is to improve the mech by giving it relatively small and weak helicopter blades that help keep it afloat or move quickly. The legs main goal would be just to keep it stable or upright during it's movement.



So far this is like the closest thing I've seen to the idea, I'm sure someone else has thought of it before, there's just not a lot about it anywhere.
https://www.wired.com/story/this-bird-l ... -two-legs/



But, but, we diddnt invent elephants...
Also, you mean bipedal ?

Wouldn’t it make more sense to have a heavily armored magnetic hovercraft that can reach some kind of altitude ?

The primary issue with hovercraft is fuel consumption, their lack of stability, and the dust they pick up, presumably this would be higher above the ground and not rely on as much force to stay move around, with the legs keeping it held upright and allowing it to move at like 3 mph, while the fans make it move forward a lot faster allowing it to take bigger steps and keeping it stable. The idea is hopefully the fans would be quite small in comparison to a hovercraft.

But yeah, I mean it could possibly be so strong that it could fly for a few minutes or something. Also, while ideally the design wouldn't be bipedal, it's still a proof of concept of legs working by being assisted by fans. My main point is that biology still beats machines in the respect of maneuverability. Airplanes fly faster, higher, and with a higher payload, than any other living thing, being larger than a whale (there are many airplanes literally the size of many whales), and yet, one 90 degree angle, maybe just even 4 feet tall, will stop the vast majority of military ground vehicles, despite the fact it's an obstacle a horse will easily clear. So, in terms of raw power we can do a lot, literally flying whales, but in terms of just a little bit of mobility it's virtually impossible. There's no mech robots. I understand why, but it some ways it does come off as a little baffling. So, maybe we could use said flying whale power to help keep a mech upright or move faster, given we have such technology at the time, is my musing. xP

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