NS Military Realism Consultation Thread Vol. 11.0

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

I should install a magical staring eye array over unpleasant or inimical places
something the size of Hubble Space Telescope but magical and capable of seeing through anything and everything
<.>

[Danternoust]

I should install a magical staring eye array over unpleasant or inimical places
something the size of Hubble Space Telescope but magical and capable of seeing through anything and everything
<.>

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Chronoscope

In Danternoust-84, the main fleet uses nuclear destroyers with open reactor compartments that create a steam curtain, obscuring the fleet from any direct observer unaided by sonar or radar.

So instead of being really hard to spot visually your destroyers create huge clouds of steam that make their approximate location very easy to determine visually?

https://www.invidio.us/watch?v=0_EdgP57l1Q

Smoke curtain, meant to protect bombers in the video though.

[Spirit of Hope]

I should install a magical staring eye array over unpleasant or inimical places
something the size of Hubble Space Telescope but magical and capable of seeing through anything and everything
<.>

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Chronoscope

So instead of being really hard to spot visually your destroyers create huge clouds of steam that make their approximate location very easy to determine visually?

https://www.invidio.us/watch?v=0_EdgP57l1Q

Smoke curtain, meant to protect bombers in the video though.

Yes, it makes spotting the individuals very hard, but it makes spotting where the formation is very easy. Visual spotting of your warships, in comparison to radar or ELINT, is rather unlikely. Visual spotting certainly won't be used to target weapons. But the huge steam cloud your warships will be creating will be rather easy to spot, visually, and then the enemy can direct their resources to searching that area instead of the entire ocean.

[Kassaran]

So, first thing's first... no one is ever going to 'bomb' a naval fleet ever again. That's going to be done by missiles which are launched with a radar lock and gps-guidance. Secondly, while typical orbital observation satellites aren't ever going to be able to easily determine the location of a fleet underway due to the ocean being relatively big and ships being relatively tiny... they'll be able to quickly catch on to any and all fleet movements if your fleet just creates a massive-ass steam-cloud that generates localized cloud-systems against all meteorological predictions and determinations. Third, you've now also made it next-to-impossible for your ship captains to actually navigate in the event they take damage to specific navigational aids, or if they're suffering computer issues that affect said navigational aids. A compass isn't going to be enough to help you in that event.

[Danternoust]

Yes, it makes spotting the individuals very hard, but it makes spotting where the formation is very easy. Visual spotting of your warships, in comparison to radar or ELINT, is rather unlikely. Visual spotting certainly won't be used to target weapons. But the huge steam cloud your warships will be creating will be rather easy to spot, visually, and then the enemy can direct their resources to searching that area instead of the entire ocean.

Remove Merchant Marine, replace it with a navy that secretly weaponizes every freighter using cargo container missile launchers?

[The New California Republic]

So, first thing's first... no one is ever going to 'bomb' a naval fleet ever again. That's going to be done by missiles which are launched with a radar lock and gps-guidance.

I wouldn't discount the possibility of the use of guided bombs against a fleet that was in harbour...

[The Akasha Colony]

So, first thing's first... no one is ever going to 'bomb' a naval fleet ever again. That's going to be done by missiles which are launched with a radar lock and gps-guidance.

It's actually pretty likely that bombs will continue to be used against warships. Mostly because large anti-ship missiles are relatively few in number while bombs are fairly common and quite accurate. The US used more bombs against Iranian ships in the Persian Gulf than Harpoons, and the Argentines used more bombs against British ships than Exocets, despite the infamous reputation Exocet gained from the war.

But the aircraft delivering these bombs will have radar of their own so a steam cloud won't deter them anyway.

[The New California Republic]

So, first thing's first... no one is ever going to 'bomb' a naval fleet ever again. That's going to be done by missiles which are launched with a radar lock and gps-guidance.

It's actually pretty likely that bombs will continue to be used against warships. Mostly because large anti-ship missiles are relatively few in number while bombs are fairly common and quite accurate. The US used more bombs against Iranian ships in the Persian Gulf than Harpoons, and the Argentines used more bombs against British ships than Exocets, despite the infamous reputation Exocet gained from the war.

But the aircraft delivering these bombs will have radar of their own so a steam cloud won't deter them anyway.

In fact, most of the British ships sunk during the Falklands were sunk with conventional freefall bombs, including HMS Ardent, HMS Antelope, HMS Coventry, and RFA Sir Galahad. So the claim that "no one is ever going to 'bomb' a naval fleet ever again" just doesn't hold water. Excuse the pun.

[Purpelia]

Plus you can just dump an atomic tipped anti ship missile at the giant cloud that can be seen from orbit and laugh maniacally.

[The New California Republic]

Plus you can just dump an atomic tipped anti ship missile at the giant cloud that can be seen from orbit and laugh maniacally.

I remember that the Syrian SAM battalions tried to mask their SAM sites with smoke during one of their many spats with Israel. It just made the Israeli pilots' job easier, as the smoke made the sites easily identifiable from the air. The SAM battalions got decimated. However it wasn't just because of the smoke: the Syrian tactics overall were appalling, they ignored all of the suggestions of the Soviet advisers regarding creating multiple dummy sites and frequently moving between pre-prepared sites. The SAMs would stay in the same positions for months on end, which gave Israeli intelligence plenty of time to create a complete map of them. The Syrians SAM crews were also lazy as fuck: they built the SAM sites in valleys instead of on hills, which meant that the radar horizon was ridiculously close to the SAM site. The reason for building in valleys? The Syrian SAM crews couldn't be bothered building latrines, which would have been required if they had built the sites on hills. Seriously. No joke.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

Meanwhile in the real battleship: "Look at these plebs with their smoke screens and massive batteries of surface to air missiles."

[Spirit of Hope]

Yes, it makes spotting the individuals very hard, but it makes spotting where the formation is very easy. Visual spotting of your warships, in comparison to radar or ELINT, is rather unlikely. Visual spotting certainly won't be used to target weapons. But the huge steam cloud your warships will be creating will be rather easy to spot, visually, and then the enemy can direct their resources to searching that area instead of the entire ocean.

Remove Merchant Marine, replace it with a navy that secretly weaponizes every freighter using cargo container missile launchers?

Then who is carrying your supplies and trade? How are you targeting these missiles? How are they going to fight subs?

A merchant ship with a couple of cargo/container missile launchers probably isn't a terrible surprise weapon. However they would be vulnerable to traditional warships, and have little ability to actually project naval power.

[Triplebaconation]

:replying to R&C posts in 2019:

[Hurtful Thoughts]

Plus you can just dump an atomic tipped anti ship missile at the giant cloud that can be seen from orbit and laugh maniacally.

I remember that the Syrian SAM battalions tried to mask their SAM sites with smoke during one of their many spats with Israel. It just made the Israeli pilots' job easier, as the smoke made the sites easily identifiable from the air. The SAM battalions got decimated. However it wasn't just because of the smoke: the Syrian tactics overall were appalling, they ignored all of the suggestions of the Soviet advisers regarding creating multiple dummy sites and frequently moving between pre-prepared sites. The SAMs would stay in the same positions for months on end, which gave Israeli intelligence plenty of time to create a complete map of them. The Syrians SAM crews were also lazy as fuck: they built the SAM sites in valleys instead of on hills, which meant that the radar horizon was ridiculously close to the SAM site. The reason for building in valleys? The Syrian SAM crews couldn't be bothered building latrines, which would have been required if they had built the sites on hills. Seriously. No joke.

That's a pretty shitty reason to die.

Same could likely be said about why the Iraqi tanks bivvied in such a bad spot prior to the battle of 73 Easting.

[Kassaran]

The reason for building in valleys? The Syrian SAM crews couldn't be bothered building latrines, which would have been required if they had built the sites on hills. Seriously. No joke.

That's a pretty shitty reason to die.

Same could likely be said about why the Iraqi tanks bivvied in such a bad spot prior to the battle of 73 Easting.

That's a terrible pun and you should be ashamed for dumping something like that on the thread.

[Danternoust]

Remove Merchant Marine, replace it with a navy that secretly weaponizes every freighter using cargo container missile launchers?

Then who is carrying your supplies and trade? How are you targeting these missiles? How are they going to fight subs?

A merchant ship with a couple of cargo/container missile launchers probably isn't a terrible surprise weapon. However they would be vulnerable to traditional warships, and have little ability to actually project naval power.

There was a reason for unrestricted submarine warfare in WWI. Very difficult to see around inside a submarine.

Can't see your enemy? Area already under blockade? Just declare it offlimits and sink everything.

If it was so easy to identify ships, but difficult to distinguish them, then it would be obvious the course of action that would be taken.

[Kassaran]

That's literally like talking about dogfighting in WW1. That's quite literally talking about any of the new technologies that were finally deployed widescale in combat in WW1.

[Spirit of Hope]

Then who is carrying your supplies and trade? How are you targeting these missiles? How are they going to fight subs?

A merchant ship with a couple of cargo/container missile launchers probably isn't a terrible surprise weapon. However they would be vulnerable to traditional warships, and have little ability to actually project naval power.

There was a reason for unrestricted submarine warfare in WWI. Very difficult to see around inside a submarine.

Can't see your enemy? Area already under blockade? Just declare it offlimits and sink everything.

If it was so easy to identify ships, but difficult to distinguish them, then it would be obvious the course of action that would be taken.

I like how you got that all wrong.

Unrestricted submarine warfare wasn't because the Germans couldn't identify who the ships belonged to, it was because neutral ships were carrying war cargo, and food stuff, to Britain. Germany couldn't blockade Britain, but they sure as hell could try and sink enough cargo to keep her from fighting the war effort efficiently and starve the island nation.

If you plan on using these merchant marine like commerce raiders, they will suffer the fate of most commerce raiders. They have an initial success as you catch the enemy by surprise, but they will quickly be hunted down, because they aren't faster than warships, and sunk, because they aren't as well armed as warships.

Same problem if you try and ambush the enemy fleet, only know the enemy doesn't even have to look for you.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

Then who is carrying your supplies and trade? How are you targeting these missiles? How are they going to fight subs?

A merchant ship with a couple of cargo/container missile launchers probably isn't a terrible surprise weapon. However they would be vulnerable to traditional warships, and have little ability to actually project naval power.

There was a reason for unrestricted submarine warfare in WWI. Very difficult to see around inside a submarine.

Can't see your enemy? Area already under blockade? Just declare it offlimits and sink everything.

If it was so easy to identify ships, but difficult to distinguish them, then it would be obvious the course of action that would be taken.

"Hey there's this merchant radiating with Plank Shave at us. You mind checking it out with visually?"
"Sure."
An hour later...
"Enemy commerce raider sunk with one ADCAP."

[Athelland]

Hello,

I’d like to request some suggestions on what structure Athelland’s military should use (branches, etc), and what area of warfare or defence the state should focus on. Athelland is an island nation in the North Atlantic, southeast of Iceland and northwest of the UK, roughly four fifths the size of the Republic of Ireland.

Thanks.

[Taihei Tengoku]

policy goals + material capability will spit out a rough estimate of what your military will look like

[The New California Republic]

[...] what area of warfare or defence the state should focus on. Athelland is an island nation in the North Atlantic [...]

Well, the obvious answer is a strong navy. But it depends on how you want to RP your nation, as you could go for a strong force of bombers armed with ASMs if aerial warfare is more your thing (depending on whether your nation is MT etc of course).

[Triplebaconation]

Unless the world is radically different there's no realistic military threat to such a country, so there's no need for a strong navy or bombers(!).

The navy and any air force would probably focus on things like patrolling territorial waters and search and rescue. If you bother with an army it would probably support peacekeeping operations abroad.

[United Earthlings]

Hello,

I’d like to request some suggestions on what structure Athelland’s military should use (branches, etc), and what area of warfare or defence the state should focus on. Athelland is an island nation in the North Atlantic, southeast of Iceland and northwest of the UK, roughly four fifths the size of the Republic of Ireland.

Thanks.

You might as well have said your nation is Iceland or an AU version because that's basically what it is, only smaller roughly by half in size land area wise.

Now the question becomes, politically, are you exactly like Iceland I.E. an independent nation or more like Greenland, an autonomous territory of some European nation?

If its the latter which is probably more than likely, then the answer is easy, you have no military.

[Gallia-]

Greenland has a bigger army than Iceland lol.