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Infantry Discussion Thread part 11: Gallas Razor edition.

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Anemos Major
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Postby Anemos Major » Fri Apr 20, 2018 12:45 am

Manokan Republic wrote:Well the ammunition cost and weight is the main advantage and the mortar itself could be expensive and not really a problem in the long run. There's also the fact that many costs are negligible, like say if the mortar backpack was say, 10,000 dollars, that's the price of a single M1 abrams round. So, for an infantry soldier to have a mortar +20 rounds for that price and be able to reuse it would be expensive in comparison to the price of say, a 1000 dollar assault rifle, but not expensive in regards to the rest of the military. Cost is relative, and so expensive infantry equipment usually isn't expensive for the overall price of the military.

The main advantage is the low price of ammunition, as a javeline missile is 50,000 dollars per round fired, and a mortar is at most a few hundred. Even if the mortar itself was 50,000 dollars, that's a one time downpayment. It also would probably be about the same weight. The basic idea would be to type in the coordinates on like a gps and then have it fire there rather than self aim per say. So it's not auto targeting, it's just moves in the right direction and then fires. As for automatic loading, the basic idea would be breach loading and have it be automated like a chaingun.


cost is relative, which is exactly why comparing the price of a 120mm APFSDS round to an infantry mortar is a bit irresponsible. granted, I undercut this argument constantly by refusing to buy expensive things on the basis that I can buy n amount of bacon with that money instead, but the good thing about the internet is that we can pretend to be better people than we actually are.

bluntly, just because a cost is fixed and not variable doesn't negate it - for example, at some point the Japanese decided to procure a 3000 dollar domestically manufactured service rifle instead of, say, a 1000 dollar foreign alternative. what this meant was that it took years and years and years to fully re-equip the GSDF with new service rifles. buying an exceptionally superfluous automated mortar system that would require some sort of power source and presumably automated components and gyroscopes and sensors and GPS functionality because you object to the idea of just planting it on the immediately available ground would inevitably increase the fixed cost of the weapon, and just because a 120mm round optimised for killing million dollar steel beasts costs as much as it does, that fact will nonetheless not negate the fact that your tube offers barely more than a regular mortar but will still cost multiple times as much on the balance sheets.

E: personally I feel as though the MGI Mle F1 is a fantastic infantry tool - not only lightweight but also provides a substantively different capability to direct fire GLs, with the capacity to provide indirect fire support and fire a wide range of munitions (from your regular HE to smoke and star rounds)
Last edited by Anemos Major on Fri Apr 20, 2018 12:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Manokan Republic
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Postby Manokan Republic » Fri Apr 20, 2018 12:57 am

Anemos Major wrote:
Manokan Republic wrote:Well the ammunition cost and weight is the main advantage and the mortar itself could be expensive and not really a problem in the long run. There's also the fact that many costs are negligible, like say if the mortar backpack was say, 10,000 dollars, that's the price of a single M1 abrams round. So, for an infantry soldier to have a mortar +20 rounds for that price and be able to reuse it would be expensive in comparison to the price of say, a 1000 dollar assault rifle, but not expensive in regards to the rest of the military. Cost is relative, and so expensive infantry equipment usually isn't expensive for the overall price of the military.

The main advantage is the low price of ammunition, as a javeline missile is 50,000 dollars per round fired, and a mortar is at most a few hundred. Even if the mortar itself was 50,000 dollars, that's a one time downpayment. It also would probably be about the same weight. The basic idea would be to type in the coordinates on like a gps and then have it fire there rather than self aim per say. So it's not auto targeting, it's just moves in the right direction and then fires. As for automatic loading, the basic idea would be breach loading and have it be automated like a chaingun.


cost is relative, which is exactly why comparing the price of a 120mm APFSDS round to an infantry mortar is a bit irresponsible. granted, I undercut this argument constantly by refusing to buy expensive things on the basis that I can buy n amount of bacon with that money instead, but the good thing about the internet is that we can pretend to be better people than we actually are.

bluntly, just because a cost is fixed and not variable doesn't negate it - for example, at some point the Japanese decided to procure a 3000 dollar domestically manufactured service rifle instead of, say, a 1000 dollar foreign alternative. what this meant was that it took years and years and years to fully re-equip the GSDF with new service rifles. buying an exceptionally superfluous automated mortar system that would require some sort of power source and presumably automated components and gyroscopes and sensors and GPS functionality because you object to the idea of just planting it on the immediately available ground would inevitably increase the fixed cost of the weapon, and just because a 120mm round optimised for killing million dollar steel beasts costs as much as it does, that fact will nonetheless not negate the fact that your tube offers barely more than a regular mortar but will still cost multiple times as much on the balance sheets.

E: personally I feel as though the MGI Mle F1 is a fantastic infantry tool - not only lightweight but also provides a substantively different capability to direct fire GLs, with the capacity to provide indirect fire support and fire a wide range of munitions (from your regular HE to smoke and star rounds)

Considering that infantry equipment makes up like 2% of the price of a military, imo splurging on the weapon itself is usually fine. You can, if you don't cheap out, easily buy a really expensive rifle; machine guns are usually 6000+ dollars, and you buy 1 for every 4 soldiers. For example, a 3000 dollar rifle for 3 million men would be 9 billion dollars which, spread out over 10 years is 900 million dollars. That ends up being like, .15% of the cost of the military if going on a 600 billion dollar annual budget (like the U.S. military), which would assume every soldier needs the best guns and not just frontline troops, and that all frontline troops needed the rifle when many already use other weapons. When you factor in the price of the humvee which is 120-220,000 dollars for four soldiers, or the 3 million dollar APC for 9 soldiers and so on, the price of the weapons is largely negligible anyways. And that's before you get in to say, training the soldiers and medical care and all that, food and water and salaries etc.

As far as the mortar itself I think it's fine, the problem is it's use in a fireteam, or integrated in to a maneuver elements of a squad. The fact you have to stand still and be in an open area to fire the weapon is kind of a problem. A grenade's trajectory is not perfectly flat but you could easily fire it from say, the window of a building and retreat, where as it's not really the case with a mortar due to the high angle of attack needed and the fact it would need to be placed on the ground to work correctly. It would be a lot harder to set up and use in confined spaces, and even in an open space you still have the set-up time problem. It definitely couldn't be fired on the move.


As for the mortar backpack itself, if you use your imagination for instance, your backpack mortar could be fired from the ground. You would lay down and it would jut out to the side and then fire. So basically it would be ground mounted, just also attached to your backpack so it's easier to set up and run with it and whatnot.
Last edited by Manokan Republic on Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:02 am, edited 5 times in total.

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Varola
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Postby Varola » Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:06 am

I would like to ask if we can discuss ranks here
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Gallia-
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Postby Gallia- » Fri Apr 20, 2018 3:44 am

Anemos Major wrote:OICWs are a staggeringly long-lived technological dead-end (...) we've decided instead to create the pretense of progress by throwing division of labour out the window and trying desperately to strap two weapons together and call it the future (...) we can functionally improve existing UBGLs with munitions like SAGM, we can improve the functionality of standalone launchers by either taking an XM25 style weapon and finding some way to make the damn thing lighter while giving it a more useful range of ammunition


tbf the irony here is that UBGLs are going the same way of technological dead-endedness that OICW is; meanwhile standalone launchers are returning to M79 OTOH due to greater portability and handiness of the rifle as a result of shedding the dead weight of the M203; and XM25 is the real technological dead end due to its inability to be adopted even when it was light enough and portable enough to be used in combat which is ultimately what doomed the HE portion of OICW tbh so im not sure why saying "the death of OICW was unavoidable" but then saying "we can conquer the death of OICW" is any less true than the other (or in your case, untrue, since you claim OICWs are dead but say that XM25 can be fixed when they are both the same problem with the same solution at similar magnitude [OICW benefits more than XM25 tho])

so OICW will come back but OICW was also 80% optics and computer, and 20% launcher too; but on a meta-level it was 100% Universal Armament

killing the division of labor/"tyranny of assigned roles" is the future of infantry combat anyway: eventually all riflemen will be machine gunners and all machine gunners riflemen, and the only things left are the "NCO", the "infantryman", and the "carrier crewman" as recognizable jobs where the NCO is distinguished by his 40mm M79 firing WP and laser guided HEDP; and the infantryman by his heavy barrel Universal Armament equipped with a bipod, computerized optics, and laser rangefinder for hyper accurate small arms fire from their RPK-416 IAR and a NLAW/PLOS weapon; and the carrier crewman drives/shoots/commands the infantry carrier

and yes this is one reason big brains are a driving factor in future war since the trend is towards increasingly independent small units much like a sous chef requires a big brain to work adequately

the other is the lack of manpower in the future means there is no other future besides min-maxing the infantry: OICW was prescient in its ability to identify the need for a Universal Armament when most people (read: FN) were mulling around workshops inventing new 1960s assault rifles and 40mm UBGLs long after their expiry dates had passed in the state-of-the-art and people who were responsible for strategic forecasting had predicted that mid-term demographic trends (2030s, which is nowadays 2060s, or 2050s of the early oughties) would render old modes of thincc unsustainable in the long term (read: ALB 2000 and the U.S. Army, mostly)

even the baby 20-30mm grenade launchers may come back if h. hikkikomori can grow enough lumbar strength to carry more than a 5 lbs rifle

after all OICW weighed less than the BAR -A0 (let alone BAR -A1/-A2) and Daewoo K11 compares favorably with the Original Fighting Rifle: the Colt Monitor; the massive physical degeneration and general unhealthiness of the Western world's sedentary cubicle lifestyles is what keeps OICW from happening, not the fact that it is "overweight" when it weighs less than the original Fighting Rifle tbh

the other irony though is that Daewoo K11, the only OICW to see military service, actually compares very favorably to the M16/M203 with the ACOG, which is also a 14 lbs rifle: K11 has a day/night thermal sight and LRF

so really the future is a bunch of SOCOM wannabes running around with 12 lbs rifles with OICW-esque computer scopes/thermal sights/laser rangefinders and heavy barrels and maybe one guy out of half a dozen has a 40mm hanging off his back with a WP or laser guided HEDP round in it; not a single machine gun, UBGL, or sniper's rifle in sight, because all subroles sans "leader" have been subsumed into the new role "infantryman" which is a true Universal Soldier

at least in America anyway, but America is the last dynamic Western war economy; ROK is just going full tilt into K11s assuming they ever fix their quality control issues

tl;dr future squads will be 1970s west germany with more G3A3s and fewer MG-3s RIP SAGM RIP "machine gun" RIP "DMR" all hail the OICW/"rifle"

Anemos Major wrote:with the capacity to provide indirect fire support and fire a wide range of munitions (from your regular HE to smoke and star rounds)


i am skeptical of 51mm FLY-K's ability to deliver serious HE tbh since it is a measly 51mm and if L9A1 teaches us anything it's that 51mm is not adequate for good HE lobbing

it has half the HE load of M888 in absolute terms and M888 has a higher payload fraction; M720 has a lower payload fraction (Rheinmetall's M101 sits squarely between the 12% and 20% of the M720/M888 LWCMS 60mm rounds in payload fraction) but has a 190 g HE filler vice 180 g and has an airburst fuze to boot so it is still superior even not account for larger fragments and thiccer body and higher HE load

ignore strap shooting since that is just cowboy twirling a double action and hoping not to shoot yourself in the foot tbh

giving the grenadier a bandolier of nothing but WP and illumination flares seems a much better option

Varola wrote:I would like to ask if we can discuss ranks here


ye

Puzikas wrote:It was a thought experiment mostly. The SL still had his UBGL, and there were still 9 disposable RPG-22s in the platoon. I just disliked the lack of IAR and SDM.
That video did play a role yes. It's not particularly impressive per second but it's very cool.


i only wish they had a fake helicopter along train tracks like the faku-tanku-chan so they would be forced to develop PLOS for the direct fire mode and have a plausible AA mode

the entire crowd would fall backwards over the bleachers in amazement at such raw expression of masculinity and speed

Puzikas wrote:For you I will look into this. A lot of this weirdness is just stuff I have memorized from reading e v e r y t h i n g


ty fam

Puzikas wrote:I have an Italian source that is internet based actually:

http://www.comandosupremo.com/blackshirts.html/2

1933-1943ish


i will consider this for historical purposes

actually no gallaverse has extant blackshirts (purpleshirts?) in the form of Frisia and Tianxia so maybe one of these of one of their satellites will have giga!plutons

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idk this is more like a moral flaw so not rly ;-;

Puzikas wrote:I've seen weirder.


i dont even know if anyone has used two-man "fireteams" irl

the US Army uses buddy teams which are essentially the same thing and produced by splitting a fireteam in half, but it still has 75% M4A1 and 25% SAW in that group, so it's a rifle/gun group dichotomy rather than true fireteam

it must throw "mature SP4s" for a loop if they ever make corporal or E-5 for a minute unless they just dont question its lack of logical distinction where you go from like

>unbalanced teams and SL-cum-TL
>dyad balanced teams and separate SL
>triangular unbalanced teams and weapons team

every level is a new learning experience
Last edited by Gallia- on Fri Apr 20, 2018 5:19 am, edited 15 times in total.

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Crookfur
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Postby Crookfur » Fri Apr 20, 2018 3:48 am

Varola wrote:I would like to ask if we can discuss ranks here

We can, what do you wish to discuss in regards to ranks?
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Theodosiya
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Postby Theodosiya » Fri Apr 20, 2018 5:09 am

Three teams in three IFVs, two squads in six IFVs... How to do the organization? And should I fit weapon squad too? (MAG/PKM, 60/50mm mortar, Javelin/Metis)
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Varola
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Postby Varola » Fri Apr 20, 2018 5:13 am

Crookfur wrote:
Varola wrote:I would like to ask if we can discuss ranks here

We can, what do you wish to discuss in regards to ranks?

Many, many things.

First off, why are there so many ranks? Wouldn’t it be much simpler (and cheaper too!) to impose a small limit of no less than 25-30 ranks?
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Puzikas
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Postby Puzikas » Fri Apr 20, 2018 5:27 am

Recoil is a force of mass and acceleration.

A squat bar is not. You are supporting weight with your legs and back, a static load that only enters movement with you.
You are not attempting to brace 150ftlb of energy directed directly inline with your spine and shoulders at a speed of 76m/s.
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Puzikas
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Postby Puzikas » Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:09 am

>has plenty of potential, but refuses to use it

>Is nothing but potential energy in use
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Puzikas
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Postby Puzikas » Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:37 am

In on a 18 hour shift which naturally means I am avoiding busy work until real work comes in

Post your inane questions and I will answer them as time goes on
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Crookfur
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Postby Crookfur » Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:48 am

Varola wrote:
Crookfur wrote:We can, what do you wish to discuss in regards to ranks?

Many, many things.

First off, why are there so many ranks? Wouldn’t it be much simpler (and cheaper too!) to impose a small limit of no less than 25-30 ranks?

Because there aren't really that many and they all denote a particular place in the nessecary hierarchy of a military.

The only place where things over lap is the senior non commissioned officer (SNCO) and junior officer Region.

Unless you mean different services having different names for more or less the same rank ie petty officers vs sergeants or squadron leaders vs majors/captains.

The second case stuff could be dispensed with but they are largely a result of traditions and history so a lot would depend on how "old" your military is.
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Postby Tule » Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:50 am

Varola wrote:
Crookfur wrote:We can, what do you wish to discuss in regards to ranks?

Many, many things.

First off, why are there so many ranks? Wouldn’t it be much simpler (and cheaper too!) to impose a small limit of no less than 25-30 ranks?


Ranks are determined by the fact that the humans can only effectively command a handful of other humans, in the military this typically means 3-4 subordinates.

So you have 4 men to a fireteam commanded by a corporal. 2-3 fireteams to a squad/section commanded by a sergeant. 3-4 squads/sections to a platoon commanded by a lieutenant. 3-4 platoons to a company commanded by a captain etc.

Ultimately it's the size of your military that determines the number of ranks. The military of Luxembourg has no field marshall because there aren't enough troops for a field marshall to command.
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Postby The Dolphin Isles » Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:36 am

Thanks, guys for the responses on my wannabe french squads. I think I was just ignoring the benefits of inter-changeable squads just cause of how much of a fan I was of the LGI which only really does excel if kept at a bit of a distance from the enemy. It would probably be best just throw one into the weapon's squad instead. As for the rest of the squad, would it be at all a decent benefit (other than just making the soldier's life less miserable) to keep some empty seats in some of the transports or should I always strive to pack those babies to the brim?

Currently, my squads come out to about 7 soldiers each, but each of my transports for them carries about 9-11. I was thinking that the extra space could be used for ammo/weapons storage as well as make a bit of extra space for transporting wounded if needed. Additionally, the platoon would be more flexible such as if the vehicle variant is switched or if a vehicle is disabled since the vehicle could be ditched as a last resort to escape the kill box of an ambush. Of course, this all does come at the price of decreased platoon firepower and ability to take on casualties.

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Postby Gallia- » Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:50 am

7 men is too small for real fireteams TBF so you could do a French/Soviet-esque monolith.

Transport machine gun team of three men with an MMG with the dismounts in each carrier so you have triangular platoon of monoliths supported by machine gun weapons squad.

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Postby Theodosiya » Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:47 am

Gallia- wrote:
Theodosiya wrote:two squads in six IFVs...


how is this even possible lmao

two squads of 13 men = 26
Six IFV that could load 7 men each, but loaded only 4, 5 or 6 each...
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Postby Dostanuot Loj » Fri Apr 20, 2018 9:10 am

The Akasha Colony wrote:
The Dolphin Isles wrote:So I see now that the best option is to have a FAMAS with rifle grenades, an UBGL, and an LGI for the best grenadier ever.

With the squads though. Is it a relatively good idea to split a squad into a 300 m and a 600 m fire team or would it be better to just have two inter-changeable fireteams with an auto rifleman and grenadier (using a UBGL) in each group?


There isn't a right answer to this. If there were, the question would not have to be asked, and everyone would be using the right answer.

Symmetrical fireteams are common because they reduce the number of different weapon systems fielded at the squad level and make fireteams interchangeable in the event of casualties. If a platoon with symmetrical fireteams in each squad conducted an assault and suffered casualties, the surviving fireteams could be reorganized into a smaller number of full-strength, full-capability squads. But with asymmetric fireteams, if the assault teams sustain casualties in the assault, suddenly the platoon has lots of support teams but a shortage of trained assault teams. This makes the learning curve for squad leaders easier as well, since they only need to learn the capabilities of a single type of fireteam, rather than figure out separately which positions best suit the assault team and where the support team should be placed.

OTOH, asymmetric teams have the ability to bring a wider variety of weapons at the squad level because rather than just four men in a fireteam (with the teams doubled), you have a full six men (in a seven-man French squad) who can carry different weapons. A nine-man squad has eight men in its fireteams to carry different weapons.


As a note, when Canada switched from the 10-man asymmetrical section to the 8-man symmetrical one of the big (and still ongoing) complaints was that the symmetrical fireteam limited the practical approaches for the section leader. With the asymmetrical section the default attack was to pin with the gun group and flank with the rifle group, and while there was nothing stopping the symmetrical section from doing this in practice it always seems to devolve into bounding frontal assault with no flanking. When the LAV is involved sections tended to resume flanking using the LAV as the gun group though, but fully dismounted this never was the case in practice.
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Dostanuot Loj
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Postby Dostanuot Loj » Fri Apr 20, 2018 9:51 am

Gallia- wrote:Canada should remove half the Quebecois from the Army and recycle their roles to Anglo-Canadians with Carl Gustafs mb.


Back in the early 2000s the Van-doos did hoard most of our Carl Gs.
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Postby The Manticoran Empire » Fri Apr 20, 2018 10:55 am

Is the AIFV-B a decent enough vehicle for light units?
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Postby Halfblakistan » Fri Apr 20, 2018 2:06 pm

Been reading up on the MPCV and UR-416. Both are based on a Unimog body.

I was wondering about the details of building an APC/Internal Security Vehicle off the body of a GAZ-66. The GAZ is cheaper and easy to get on the international market, parts are widely available, and they're highly reliable. Was going to give this vehicle a V-shaped hull to deflect landmines and simple composite armor.

Would the decreased climb of the GAZ matter? Does the idea of using a light truck as an APC work for both the Unimog and the GAZ-66?

Thanks.
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Postby Purpelia » Fri Apr 20, 2018 4:41 pm

If you put rails on top of a carry handle would the handle be uncomfortable to carry?
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Postby The Manticoran Empire » Fri Apr 20, 2018 4:53 pm

Purpelia wrote:If you put rails on top of a carry handle would the handle be uncomfortable to carry?

A bit.
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