Infantry Discussion Thread part 11: Gallas Razor edition.

[Theodosiya]

Is there any real benefit for a 60mm mortar in platoon, alongside ATGM (Javelin) and MAG?


Edit : For all kind of infantry. Motorized, mechanized, light, heavy...

[Austrasien]

Is there any real benefit for a 60mm mortar in platoon, alongside ATGM (Javelin) and MAG?


Edit : For all kind of infantry. Motorized, mechanized, light, heavy...

Yes. Best infantry remover.

[The Akasha Colony]

Is there any real benefit for a 60mm mortar in platoon, alongside ATGM (Javelin) and MAG?


Edit : For all kind of infantry. Motorized, mechanized, light, heavy...

Yes, because it provides capabilities neither of those other weapons provides.

Namely, the ability to lob large quantities of a wide variety of ordnance at decent range and on an indirect trajectory. MAG is only good at spitting bullets downrange, and Javelin is a really expensive way to fire like 1-2 missiles downrange. None of them can lay smoke or drop a mortar bomb right in that enemy machine gun nest from a protected position.

[Gallia-]

mortor

he schut an he s m o c c

[Manokan Republic]

Is there any real benefit for a 60mm mortar in platoon, alongside ATGM (Javelin) and MAG?


Edit : For all kind of infantry. Motorized, mechanized, light, heavy...

Mortars are cheaper, have a longer range and have lighter weight ammunition, allowing for a larger volume of shots. They're relatively inexpensive and lightweight for their power, it just requires good skill on the part of the operator to hit the target. It's sort of like pocket artillery, where you can call in a strike on an enemy position any time you need without constantly having hovering helicopters, or waiting an hour for an air strike, or artillery and so on. For close range bombardments it's easier to perform than artillery without injuring your own men, and it has far more power and range than a hand grenade. There's also smoke cover which is invaluable, as it stops your guys from getting shot, and allows them to conceal their movements when setting up an attack, be it a pincer maneuver, flanking or other combat tactic. If you wear thermal vision goggles, you can see through the smoke while the enemy cannot, and then it's sort of like hitting fish in a barrel.

A javeline missile is 50 pounds per shot, while a mortar round is about 3.5 pounds. As weight is a big problem for infantry, as they can only carry so much weight, usually between 75-125 pounds, you have a limit to how much you can carry; if you do carry it on a vehicle, mortars can carry far more rounds and for far less money. An 81mm Mortar on a vehicle is a pretty good compromise between power and price, as well as weight. I like the 120mm Mortar but typically the rounds are rather expensive and heavy, but it gives artillery level power without need as massive a vehicle or tow piece. They also can usually shoot faster with an autoloader, allowing for more rapid and more sustained bombardments.

On the upper scale, with ultra-large mortars, like the Russian 240mm mortar you get a lot of power for the size. So for example the 240mm mortars shoot 280 pound projectiles, which is nearly 3 times larger than the standard 97 pound 155mm howitzer shell, and on par with small air strikes in terms of power. For their size they're unusually powerful, but they take longer to get to the target. The range is usually not that dissimilar but you have to angle up higher to achieve the same results. You can achieve the same effect by unguided rockets, but usually it's a bit more expensive. As in you can propel a heavy payload a long distance without needing a massive recoil absorbing platform. For infantry in the reverse, you get a lot of power for the size, and you can bomb the crap out of your enemies. As shell fragments, explosives and so on kill more people in wars than small arms, it generally is a much bigger causality producer than say, guns.

[The Maple Reik]

If I want to include man-portable radar sets in my infantry divisions, what unit size should they be attached to? Also what size should the radar unit be?

[Northern Poland]

tag

[Manokan Republic]

If I want to include man-portable radar sets in my infantry divisions, what unit size should they be attached to? Also what size should the radar unit be?

I depends on big the radar system is, and what you want it to be used for. Infantry radar usually isn't all that useful due the need for battery power and thus it's better mounted on a vehicle. Even something simple like mortar detecting radar can be unusually big.

I would wager a 6 man team with a small radio system would be fine, and operating at the company level makes sense unless it's a reconnaissance or special forces group, than one per platoon makes sense. The SAS had something like it in WWII but technology has changed quite a bit.

[The Maple Reik]

If I want to include man-portable radar sets in my infantry divisions, what unit size should they be attached to? Also what size should the radar unit be?

I depends on big the radar system is, and what you want it to be used for. Infantry radar usually isn't all that useful due the need for battery power and thus it's better mounted on a vehicle. Even something simple like mortar detecting radar can be unusually big.

I would wager a 6 man team with a small radio system would be fine, and operating at the company level makes sense unless it's a reconnaissance or special forces group, than one per platoon makes sense. The SAS had something like it in WWII but technology has changed quite a bit.

Thanks for answering! I was thinking of using something like the 1L227 Sobolyatnik, and one team per company does makes sense.

[The Manticoran Empire]

Is there any real benefit for a 60mm mortar in platoon, alongside ATGM (Javelin) and MAG?


Edit : For all kind of infantry. Motorized, mechanized, light, heavy...

The 60mm mortar is light enough to be carried by a soldier as well as having enough range to support a platoon in combat. The M224 60mm mortar weighs about 50 pounds and is ideal for use in a platoon heavy weapons squad. This is particularly true of light infantry forces, who generally lack the required motor vehicles to bring heavier mortars. With heavier forces such as Mechanized and Armored, 60mm mortars still have a role at the platoon level and gain a major advantage with the ability to use mechanized vehicles to carry more ammunition.

[The Dolphin Isles]

I remember reading that French squads were made up of two fireteams with one fireteam being the long-range fireteam with an FN Minimi and a 51 mm commando mortar and the other fireteam just having FAMASes and AT4s. Is having a mortar at this low of a level in the organization just not a good idea? Is it just a compensation for the lack of a good grenade launching platform when it came to the FAMAS or is it genuinely a good boost to the squad's firepower?

[Manokan Republic]

I depends on big the radar system is, and what you want it to be used for. Infantry radar usually isn't all that useful due the need for battery power and thus it's better mounted on a vehicle. Even something simple like mortar detecting radar can be unusually big.

I would wager a 6 man team with a small radio system would be fine, and operating at the company level makes sense unless it's a reconnaissance or special forces group, than one per platoon makes sense. The SAS had something like it in WWII but technology has changed quite a bit.

Thanks for answering! I was thinking of using something like the 1L227 Sobolyatnik, and one team per company does makes sense.

It seems to make sense, as you wouldn't want to be bogged down too much by it, but one per battalion or at larger levels wouldn't give you the ability to use it all that often. Identifying threats per company seems to make more sense, and the team could double as a reconnaissance unit.

[Manokan Republic]

I remember reading that French squads were made up of two fireteams with one fireteam being the long-range fireteam with an FN Minimi and a 51 mm commando mortar and the other fireteam just having FAMASes and AT4s. Is having a mortar at this low of a level in the organization just not a good idea? Is it just a compensation for the lack of a good grenade launching platform when it came to the FAMAS or is it genuinely a good boost to the squad's firepower?

My personal opinion is that it would bog down the squad too much and remove too much of their maneuverability. Even if you had an equivalent amount of mortars in the platoon or company itself, it shouldn't be within the fireteams themselves, like maybe it should be attached to a squad. I like the idea of a 3-4 man AGS-30 air bursting grenade launcher attached to a squad for example, given it's versatility (direct fire, especially against vehicles, or indirect fire, and it's overall smaller), but having it within the infantry team itself removes the ability to fire and maneuver well. It would take a lot to set it up, then move, then set it up etc. So having one attached to a squad would be interesting but in the squad itself would be a problem.

An interesting idea would be something akin to a backpack mortar, so a soldier could have a rifle in their hands, and then could automate and fire the mortar without the need for hands or while still holding on to a rifle. That way the soldier is useful when it comes to firing their weapon and can move freely without the need to set up the weapon.

[Gallia-]

I remember reading that French squads were made up of two fireteams with one fireteam being the long-range fireteam with an FN Minimi and a 51 mm commando mortar and the other fireteam just having FAMASes and AT4s. Is having a mortar at this low of a level in the organization just not a good idea? Is it just a compensation for the lack of a good grenade launching platform when it came to the FAMAS or is it genuinely a good boost to the squad's firepower?

LGI Mle F1 is less a "mortar" and more a grenade launcher, like the IJA's Type 89.

It's fine for firing smocc and smocc is the most important thing ever tbh.

A 60mm like M6C would probably be better if you want to do anything besides blind/annoy people with WP though.

[Purpelia]

An interesting idea would be something akin to a backpack mortar, so a soldier could have a rifle in their hands, and then could automate and fire the mortar without the need for hands or while still holding on to a rifle. That way the soldier is useful when it comes to firing their weapon and can move freely without the need to set up the weapon.

How would you even aim that thing? By leaning? Just use rifle grenades at that point.

[Gallia-]

The only way you would carry is with power armor so presumably it's loaded and aimed by robotic arms like Expeditionary Fire Support System.

[Purpelia]

The only way you would carry is with power armor so presumably it's loaded and aimed by robotic arms like Expeditionary Fire Support System.

That makes sense than. If he had power armor he can just shoulder mount that stuff like the Predator shoulder cannon. Only like over the shoulder and back.

[Theodosiya]

So, a MAG/PKP, a Javelin/Metis-M, and a M224A1/(?)PM-50 could make a good weapon squad of a platoon?


And, would it be good to give paratroopers FSV (105mm armed IFV variant) and 12.7mm-7.62mm proof weapon carrier like Wiesel 2?

[Crookfur]

If I want to include man-portable radar sets in my infantry divisions, what unit size should they be attached to? Also what size should the radar unit be?

Radars would probably be, at the lowest level, part of a battalions recce/patrols platoons. You might also find them in forward observation parties attached from your artillery.

Size can vary a lot depending on what sort of range you need and how you calculate the system weight. Generally you are looking at about 15 to 30kg for the radar itself.

The defacto Western standard unit is MSTAR/ AN/PPS-5 in about a million different variations but there are some newer and lighter alternatives from Blighter and thales.

The Thales squire is of particular interest if drones are a major concern.

On look at the other side it appears that the Russians do issue itty bitty radars at the company level like the SBR-2 and 5 and the newer Fara-PV and VR.

[Gallia-]

PSTAR can track drones too, TBF.

[The Akasha Colony]

I remember reading that French squads were made up of two fireteams with one fireteam being the long-range fireteam with an FN Minimi and a 51 mm commando mortar and the other fireteam just having FAMASes and AT4s. Is having a mortar at this low of a level in the organization just not a good idea? Is it just a compensation for the lack of a good grenade launching platform when it came to the FAMAS or is it genuinely a good boost to the squad's firepower?

There's no particular reason France couldn't have just developed or imported a 40 mm UGL for FAMAS. The British and Israelis both successfully mounted UGLs to their bullpups, and the French have purchased imported 40 mm UGLs in limited numbers in the past. They have not purchased more because between the 51 mm LGI Mle F1 and their rifle grenades, there isn't a strong reason to add another explosive launcher at such a low level given the cost in weight.

LGI Mle F1 serves a particular purpose and is more optimized for this role than a UGL. It's a good deal lighter than the British L9A1 51 mm commando mortar (and has a shorter range) so that's not really a fair comparison; as Galla already noted, it's much more akin to the IJA's Type 89 in that it's basically a slightly bigger stand-alone grenade launcher. In fact, this is why it is called an "individual grenade launcher" (lance-grenade individuel) in French rather than a mortar (mortier).

Its weight is such that the launcher and a small load of grenades can be carried at the same weight as an AT4-CS. In fact, the launcher is almost half the weight of an AT4-CS. And it provides better range, a higher rate of fire, and a wider variety of munitions than a 40 mm UGL at the expense of some direct fire capability. This is fine for the French because their concept has dedicated assault and support teams in a squad, so the lack of direct firepower in the support team is not a problem as the support team is optimized for "600 meter" combat.

[Xia-]

[Purpelia]

This said, if you are using power armor just use an XM-25 style weapon chambered in 35mm Chinese firing full auto HEAT shells to kill other power armor users.

[Dostanuot Loj]

Pictured: The grenade-launchiest grenade launcher ever.


Firing two grenades at once.

[Purpelia]

Can't argue with anything that has the FAMAS in it.