Infantry Discussion Thread part 11: Gallas Razor edition.

[Gallia-]

Fishguns are wholesome and cute but it is true the world does not revolve around cuteness in some aspects.

Just most aspects.

[Triplebaconation]

It's starting to smell like pickled herring in here

[Cisairse]

Would equipping my MMG gunner with a small carbine or PDW alleviate this issue?

In theory yes, however it depends very specifically on gear choices. The main issue fundamentally is weight and size, and so while carrying a basic carbine or PDW with your main machine gun can alleviate the issue, it really all depends on very specific gear choices. Weight is the main issue, and as a machine gunner the weight of the gun and ammunition will be a hindrance, so the load-out can be an issue. The key advantage though is, you wouldn't have to restructure your military very much from urban warfare to open terrain and vice versa, so the main thing you'd change is your load out. Load-outs vary from mission to mission and depending on terrain, so it's basically the same fundamental strategy with more or less ammunition carried for the main gun or carbine depending on the environment, which is not an incredible change. So I'd say it's very doable, although you'd have to be very weight conscious and be very specific in your gear selection. The main question is exactly what kind of machine gun to use, and a submachine gun, machine-pistol style submachine gun, or assault rifle, but it's not unreasonable to carry a back-up rifle along side a machine gun. In short, it depends on the weight of each gun and their ammunition.

One way around this is to be like me, and be a cheater-cheater-pumpkin-eater, and use weapons that are fairly light-weight, based on just emerging technology, such as polymer or caseless ammunition, which can not only cut the weight of ammunition potentially in half, but also the weight of the guns nearly in half. The various 7.62mm and 6.5mm weapons in competition right now are doing alright, and a few existing guns, such as from the LSAT series, are already really lightweight. The LSAT machine gun is a mere 10 pounds vs. 17 pounds for the m249, while the ammunition weight is cut in half, and so this lightens the load of the user by 25 pounds with the same load-out of about 1000 rounds, and the gun itself is a mere 10 pounds and far shorter, making it easier to maneuver in close quarters combat, being roughly the same size and slightly heavier than a standard rifle. A 7.62mm x 51mm NATO version, being comparable to the 8mm, is a mere 14.5 pounds, and also has ammunition that is roughly half the weight, allowing a soldier to maneuver it in close quarters if they need be, and carry a lot more ammunition. Similarly, the massive reduction in weight allows the soldiers to carry extra equipment, such as potentially an extra gun, who's ammunition would also be much lighter weight. The only issue is it's experimental technology that's not quite out yet, and so it would depend on what year your country is set in, mine is set slightly in the future, about 6-10 years ahead of modern times. The competition seems to be going towards a 6.8mm round, where as in mine my country chose a 6.5mm, but it's roughly the same. [1][2][3]

There are some modern options that are available though. The M240 is roughly 27.5 pounds at it's heaviest, while weapons like the browning machine gun are 31+ pounds, but the M240L (made of titanium) is only about 20.5 pounds, and the Mk48 is about 18 pounds, and both of these are far lighter and easier to carry. The tripod, which is typically 15 pounds, if made out of titanium or aluminum and skeletonized can be around 5-10 pounds, thus shaving off some weight there too. So, with modern equipment, of which for the M240L is already out in existence, you can have a far lighter gun. The PKM and Mk 48 are both full sized machine guns that are both lighter and shorter than heavier machine guns with the same caliber, and both are about 10 pounds lighter than comparative models, at around 18 pounds each. They are viable to fire from the shoulder, however the main advantage comes from shaving off 10+ pounds, which can be used to carry a carbine or PDW. You only really need 10-13 pounds shaved off to compensate for the weight of a typical carbine and 150 rounds of ammunition (if going by assault rifle standards), so this already gets you there, the main issue being, the fact these don't function as well as full sized machine guns. They tend to be far more reliable than a rifle, but still less reliable and heat resistant than larger machine guns, and not as capable of maintaining sustained bursts, among other things. They are a good balance in my opinion for infantry and likely worth the switch for most infantry squads, but you run in to the issue of it not performing as well as heaver machine guns. This may not be as much of an issue especially at close range. So, a really light carbine + a really light medium machine gun can do the trick. Both the PKM and the Mk. 48 have been around for a while, and a recent somewhat unproven weapon is the newer Knight's armament "Assault machine gun" series in 7.62mm, based on the stoner 63, which is supposed to be fairly light and have very little recoil, being a mere 14 pounds. So far only the PKM has been made in to a bullpup that is seriously used, but if you redesign the gun as being bullpup, this might also shave off a pound or so and 6-10 inches of length, which is not insubstantial especially for something already so big. Due to the comparative power and case sizes with 7.62mm NATO and 7.62mm x 54mmR, it's not hard to imagine these being chambered in 8mm or a similiar cartridge.

Finally there is the PDW itself. A light machine-pistol type weapon, particularly like the MP7 or PP-2000, would be the lightest option possible, while still giving you armor piercing abilities, and something like a 100-200 meter range, while performing similarly to pistols. Both are rather underpowered, but they are more or less the lightest option available, with the ammunition being roughly half that of the 5.56mm, or 1/4 that of a full sized rifle cartridge. The P90 is a great option, functioning more like a true rifle and being easier to control and fire, and the 5.7mm round is slightly more powerful than the 4.6mm like used in the MP7, but it runs in to the same problem of being rather weak and having roughly a 200 meter range. Still, a good option for CQB. For around 10 pounds, you could carry the gun and roughly 300 rounds of ammunition, more or less depending on the exact configuration or weapon chosen. The other option is something like a small assault rifle, which is probably the best option, although larger and heavier. The main reason why it would be better, other than power and range, is the ability to share ammunition with the rest of the squad, so your individual soldier doesn't need unique ammunition. Logistics wise and for practical reasons, it's better to have the carbine be the same round as your assault rifle, so you don't need to resupply soldiers with a bunch of different types of ammunition, and so in a pinch, especially since you won't carry much ammunition for it, you can share ammunition with the squad members, who can in theory carry ammunition for the gun, lessening the burden for this soldier. Typically your military will have two main rifle rounds, one for an assault rifle and one for machine guns and battle rifles (as well as sniper rifles), and so it's best to have an intermediate cartridge be your main round with your carbine. This will more or less halve or more the amount of ammunition you can carry for the same weight though, and make the gun heavier. There are in fact, 5 pound assault rifle/PDW's, such as the M1 carbine which actually goes all the way back to WWII and was made of wood, or super lightweight assault rifles, including some with polymer receivers (notably very lightweight AR-15's), being a little over 5 pounds. If you can help it, you want the gun under 7 pounds, and to carry between 150-300 rounds of ammunition, which would vary from 10-17.5 pounds. If it's main use is room clearing and as a back up weapon, you probably don't need that much ammunition, as it will be used sparingly and in CQC you can usually avoid needing tons of ammunition, as battles are shorter and accuracy improves. Even better is if you restock on ammunition each time you clear a building, or every few buildings, going back to a vehicle of some sort to do it. So, basically, with a light enough main gun, yes. Another option is, although somewhat crazier, a gun chambered in the same round as the machine gun, however such guns tend to be rather large and heavy, and shorter smaller guns usually can't directly feed belts, and usually can't expect to do well with very short barrels. This isn't really recommended unless you use light enough ammunition and a light enough gun for your machine gun.

I see.

For a potential carbine, considering my main service rifle is the AK-109 (chambered in 7.62×39mm), an obvious choice would be the AK-104 carbine, which weighs less than 7 pounds unloaded and uses the same ammunition/magazines as the main rifle. It can also be quite compact (total length of 23 inches when stock is folded according to wiki). This would even make sense logistically because the AK-104 is already what I give to tank crews and some marine units who benefit more from compact light gun than long low-recoil gun.

IMO that makes way more sense than issuing carbine versions of the FG42, as hilarious of an idea as that is.

I did not realize there were bullpup PKM/PKPs. Honestly that's pretty cool. I'm looking at pictures of this thing and, wow.
The fact that 7.62×54mmR is rimmed and 7.92×57mm Mauser is rimless wouldn't pose serious complications to basing the design off of PKP? Like you could just change the extractor system and whatnot rather simply right? Do you know how much lighter the bullpup PK is compared to the normal one? Wiki says the normal PKP is 18 lbs, which is like seven pounds lighter than the MG42/MG3, which is about equal to the entire weight of the AK-104 (not including ammo) so that's significant.

[Taihei Tengoku]

Please don't quote manokan posts in full

[Immoren]

P(o)K(e)M(on) is effective in close quarters fighting it is unaltered bipod mode without need for secondary weapon for its user. I've witnessed it with me own eyes.
Then again I guess plural of anecdote is not data.

[Purpelia]

Reconfiguring your squads for urban warfare or indeed any other sort of special condition is done by packing a few extra firearms in their IFV.

A key problem isn't just weapons but fireteam dynamics. If you are trained to clear rooms with 4 people but only have 3, or have 5, 6 etc. it changes everything. Too many people and you are shooting each other in the back, too few and no-one is guarding you. Ideally you have four or more, but then your fireteams might be too big or not properly designed for other strategies. Asymmetric fireteams have the issue of now not being able to clear rooms with the same training, if you ever went from being a machine gunner to a regular riflemen your entire set of training would have to be redone, all your tactics and strategies essentially change. You want to pick something and stick with it, rather than have 5 different methods for doing the same thing. Furthermore one guy trained to do one thing is now going to have to switch to doing a completely different other thing out of nowhere. The advantage of machine guns at the platoon level is that is their only job, but if they now are expected to do 3 things it changes a lot. You now need to excel at multiple different things. In addition, if you find yourself doing room clearing without a vehicle nearby, you run in to the problem of equipment restrictions.

The teams being interchangeable matters a lot, as you basically all want to be able to do the same thing. Messing with the group dynamic, particularly in how it effects strategies and tactics is always a bad idea. A number of well known mission failures had this issue, such as in the "lone survivor" scenario where navy seals teams used to operating in teams of 8 were cut down to 4, or a botched SAS raid in Iraq used to 15 man teams was cut down to 8, and a number of other situations. If you are trained and equipped for one thing and end up doing another, it can throw off the entire operation. For people that aren't special forces and that can compensate for it with raw skill, it compounds the issue further.

But you should be doing that anyway. I mean, aside from the squad commander who needs to be that one guy and nobody else can really do his job the others should be interchangeable. Like why shouldn't everyone in your squad know how to use the MG or a rifle or clear rooms or whatever? Specializing training on that level is just begging for someone to die or get shot or sick and now your squad is broken.

[Champagne Socialist Sharifistan]

Does infantry officers being (compared to other officer ranks) being disproportionately from working-class backgrounds make sense?
(due to the high death rates and so promotion through the ranks)?

Can many 16 year olds make decent infantrymen (Provided there is training, military discipline and good pay)?

which Muslim countries ban women from the infantry?
Which ones allow it?

Would an Afghani-style gay infantry officer date their subordinate?

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

What if your country controlled its entirely out of control libido?

[Gallia-]

he doesnt have astolfo though because astolfo is only for christian warrior states

[Champagne Socialist Sharifistan]

What if your country controlled its entirely out of control libido?

It's not out of control. They just have different morality.

Adultery with your comrade's wife is seen as wrong and is very rare prostitution is uncommon and most people do not fornicate with the underage.
In addition women are typically monogamous.

[Champagne Socialist Sharifistan]

Does infantry officers being (compared to other officer ranks) being disproportionately from working-class backgrounds make sense?
(due to the high death rates and so promotion through the ranks)?

Can many 16 year olds make decent infantrymen (Provided there is training, military discipline and good pay)?

which Muslim countries ban women from the infantry?
Which ones allow it?

Would an Afghani-style gay infantry officer date their subordinate?

Hello

[Austrasien]

It would be strange to have such a high death rate after WW1.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

It would be strange to have such a high death rate after WW1.

Maybe his entire country huffs mustard gas.

[Kassaran]

Okay, I think I can only take a little more of this inanity, so how about you give us a bit more than questions. If you want to ask something, tell us what we need to know. Anything related to DEFENSE, and the question involved. Tell us what you know, what you've set up, tell us the effects that has and then you'll become far more appreciated and tolerated around here. Bring up topics and ask what works best for you. That's all this honestly comes down to dude and that you don't and constantly want and ask for attention is perhaps the most exhausting aspect of your behavior here.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

Okay, I think I can only take a little more of this inanity, so how about you give us a bit more than questions. If you want to ask something, tell us what we need to know. Anything related to DEFENSE, and the question involved. Tell us what you know, what you've set up, tell us the effects that has and then you'll become far more appreciated and tolerated around here. Bring up topics and ask what works best for you. That's all this honestly comes down to dude and that you don't and constantly want and ask for attention is perhaps the most exhausting aspect of your behavior here.

He can't because he's insufficiently educated because he's still 14.

[Gallia-]

It would be strange to have such a high death rate after WW1.

Maybe his entire country huffs mustard gas.

They're a Muslim army so they haven't unlocked bite and hold tactics yet despite it being 2020. They're waiting for the maximum "years behind" research bonus modifier to kick in so they get +105% yearly research speed on that specific tech. Iraq was only forced to adopt WW1 tactics because it would have been knocked out of the game otherwise by Iran. They got their brains back after the war and promptly reverted through use of the "military officer corps purge via forced retirement" decision which cost 200 PP.

Any right thinking Muslim army goes for maximum unit tech upgrades and ignores all doctrinal and stat bonuses because a straight +0.75% manpower casualty replenishment "isn't worth it" compared to a theoretical +2% recovery of armored vehicles due to new ARV and highly advanced containerized field repair shops.

Only dumb nerds use old equipment like "M1A1" and "UH-1/AH-1" and focus on soft stats like "vertical envelopment" and "from the sea" doctrines to give them cumulative bonuses on firepower and shock stats, which are the most useful stats at any given tech level.

[Austrasien]

P(o)K(e)M(on) is effective in close quarters fighting it is unaltered bipod mode without need for secondary weapon for its user.

You need to reach at least level 5 in gun-kata before you unlock the ability to fire when not in the deployed configuration.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

"vertical envelopment"

:eyes:

[Gallia-]

"P(o)K(e)M(on)" is a great and powerful meme.

P(o)K(e)M(on) is effective in close quarters fighting it is unaltered bipod mode without need for secondary weapon for its user.

You need to reach at least level 5 in gun-kata before you unlock the ability to fire when not in the deployed configuration.

Yeah but it is well known that Asian infantry (of all stripes, from Syrians to Vietnamese, Finns to Indians) start with "run and gun" which lets them shoot even PKT without deploying. PKT requires the special "Lightbulb Lighter" perk though which can be tested for by applying a lightbulb to the tongue of the shooter. If it lights up he can use his hand to fire the solenoid PKT and not risk chopping his finger off by jamming it inside the mechanical action.

"vertical envelopment"

:eyes:

They have both types of butt. OmO

[Grand Indochina]

he doesnt have astolfo though because astolfo is only for christian warrior states

”Trust me sonny, you don’t want to step into that TRAP !” - Some wisemen.

[Gallia-]

bruh

[Kassaran]

Okay, I think I can only take a little more of this inanity, so how about you give us a bit more than questions. If you want to ask something, tell us what we need to know. Anything related to DEFENSE, and the question involved. Tell us what you know, what you've set up, tell us the effects that has and then you'll become far more appreciated and tolerated around here. Bring up topics and ask what works best for you. That's all this honestly comes down to dude and that you don't and constantly want and ask for attention is perhaps the most exhausting aspect of your behavior here.

He can't because he's insufficiently educated because he's still 14.

So we're his education? We're this kid's teachers?

awww man he doesn't know how much he messed up just yet.

[Champagne Socialist Sharifistan]

Okay, I think I can only take a little more of this inanity, so how about you give us a bit more than questions. If you want to ask something, tell us what we need to know. Anything related to DEFENSE, and the question involved. Tell us what you know, what you've set up, tell us the effects that has and then you'll become far more appreciated and tolerated around here. Bring up topics and ask what works best for you. That's all this honestly comes down to dude and that you don't and constantly want and ask for attention is perhaps the most exhausting aspect of your behavior here.

He can't because he's insufficiently educated because he's still 14.

I do bring up topics and what works best I answered 2 of of that Indochina guy's questions

[Spirit of Hope]

He can't because he's insufficiently educated because he's still 14.

I do bring up topics and what works best I answered 2 of of that Indochina guy's questions

You ask questions that are short, vague, and devoid of any context outside of the other questions you have asked, which makes it incredibly hard to answer. You also consistently repeat questions until you get an answer, when you aren't getting an answer it's because none of us are interested in answering, asking again an hour or two later is annoying.

Now to your new questions:

Sure, whatever. Your nation.

Probably, it's not ideal.

I don't think any Muslim countries allow women in the infantry, most ban women from the military entirely.

Maybe? I mean real Afghanistan military and police officers are raping little kids and no one cares. Dating your subordinates is bad, but it's not like the Afghan military is good.

[Gallia-]

I was going to suggest rape is dating in Afghanistan but I P(o)K(e)M(on) distracted me so much I didn't think of it.