Infantry Discussion Thread part 11: Gallas Razor edition.

[Purpelia]

This is the first time I've heard of the Dulcinea Effect in a context not related to women in the military. Aside from the evident breakdown of discipline, that's probably another reason RL militaries prohibit or discourage fraternization--if you're a medic and several soldiers need help, it's only natural that the first one you help is the one you've been sleeping with. Which is disasterous in a military context.

I thought the fraternisation that was discouraged was between officers and enlistees

Depends on the army and the culture it comes from. In Purpelia it's generally considered bad if there is any real relationship but like sex is encouraged,

[Cisairse]

Would it make sense to have a belt-fed MMG (chambered in something fun, like 7.92×57mm Mauser) at the platoon level, and an AR-based squad lmg (like an RPK type weapon) at the squad level?

I'm trying to imagine a structure where I have an MMG and DMR-type weapon chambered in battle rifle cartridge (like 7.92×57mm) but the "common" LMG and assault rifle in 7.62×39mm (to accompany the common usage of AK-109 rifle and AK-104 carbine), and what the best way is to organize for ammo supply lines etc.

Or does this level of detail just not matter

[Cisairse]

Should machine gunners (I mean like MMG operators, fitted with belt-fed battle rifle cartridge guns) be outfitted with sidearms? I've read that some countries like New Zealand give their MGers pistols, and some like Norway give them PDWs, while some countries like Russia and the United States don't issue sidearms at all.

Yes. if the MG jams, or if it's not practical or possible to use it for whatever reason, a pistol would be handy.

Would it make sense to outfit them with a small carbine (considering nobody else in the platoon would be given a pistol) or would that be too heavy?

[Purpelia]

Yes. if the MG jams, or if it's not practical or possible to use it for whatever reason, a pistol would be handy.

Would it make sense to outfit them with a small carbine (considering nobody else in the platoon would be given a pistol) or would that be too heavy?

If your MG jams you have the entire rest of the squad to keep shooting whilst you fix it. And that is a much, much better use of your time than trying to snipe someone with a handgun.

[Cisairse]

Would it make sense to outfit them with a small carbine (considering nobody else in the platoon would be given a pistol) or would that be too heavy?

If your MG jams you have the entire rest of the squad to keep shooting whilst you fix it. And that is a much, much better use of your time than trying to snipe someone with a handgun.

I'm guessing any possible qualms about urban warfare could easily be quashed by asking "why is your MMG gunner moving throughout buildings in urban warfare"
Lol

Also saves me from having to decide on a sidearm.

[Austrasien]

Should machine gunners (I mean like MMG operators, fitted with belt-fed battle rifle cartridge guns) be outfitted with sidearms?

No. Pistols are fairly worthless. If the MG stops working the most intelligent course of action is to fix it. The only reason a pistol might be needed is if the MGs being used have a reputation for unreliability and the gunners need the peace of mind that comes from carrying some kind of alternate - the pistol is still effectively irrelevant but enabling the gunner to keep a cool head when his weapon does fail is certainly useful. So he can fix it faster.

[Nevertopia]

so i have magic tech in my country that borders on space-aged. How can I make this "realistic" for my infantry?

[Austrasien]

so i have magic tech in my country that borders on space-aged. How can I make this "realistic" for my infantry?

idk that is rather non-specific

[Purpelia]

If your MG jams you have the entire rest of the squad to keep shooting whilst you fix it. And that is a much, much better use of your time than trying to snipe someone with a handgun.

I'm guessing any possible qualms about urban warfare could easily be quashed by asking "why is your MMG gunner moving throughout buildings in urban warfare"
Lol

Also saves me from having to decide on a sidearm.

AGAIN, you are thinking about this wrong. Combat is not like a video game where you have one heroic guy with big guns running around killing EVERYTHING on his own whilst other characters either don't exist or are completely useless NPC's that only exist to die dramatically. A squad operates like a unit ALL OF THE TIME. It does not matter if you are in a trench, in a city, storming a highrise or a bunker or fighting aliens in the grim cold darkness of space there are always 5-10 guys who are equal or better to you at fighting and just as heavily armed to back you up. And if not, than something has gone terribly horribly wrong and having or not having a handgun is the least of your worries.

Even I know this and I have not even seen a firearm in real life, let alone a military.


War is not a shooter. It's a coop game.

[Gallia-]

so i have magic tech in my country that borders on space-aged. How can I make this "realistic" for my infantry?

internal consistency helps with verisimilitude

[Cisairse]

Should machine gunners (I mean like MMG operators, fitted with belt-fed battle rifle cartridge guns) be outfitted with sidearms?

No. Pistols are fairly worthless. If the MG stops working the most intelligent course of action is to fix it. The only reason a pistol might be needed is if the MGs being used have a reputation for unreliability and the gunners need the peace of mind that comes from carrying some kind of alternate - the pistol is still effectively irrelevant but enabling the gunner to keep a cool head when his weapon does fail is certainly useful. So he can fix it faster.

I'm guessing any possible qualms about urban warfare could easily be quashed by asking "why is your MMG gunner moving throughout buildings in urban warfare"
Lol

Also saves me from having to decide on a sidearm.

AGAIN, you are thinking about this wrong. Combat is not like a video game where you have one heroic guy with big guns running around killing EVERYTHING on his own whilst other characters either don't exist or are completely useless NPC's that only exist to die dramatically. A squad operates like a unit ALL OF THE TIME. It does not matter if you are in a trench, in a city, storming a highrise or a bunker or fighting aliens in the grim cold darkness of space there are always 5-10 guys who are equal or better to you at fighting and just as heavily armed to back you up. And if not, than something has gone terribly horribly wrong and having or not having a handgun is the least of your worries.

Even I know this and I have not even seen a firearm in real life, let alone a military.


War is not a shooter. It's a coop game.

Alright, no sidearm it is.

Are there any viable 7.92x57mm machine guns for 2020 or should I design my own

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

Design your own... or just use MG 42's.

[Austrasien]

It is close enough to 7.62x51 mm and 7.62x57 mm just about any common full-power MG design could be used.

[Immoren]

Would it make sense to have a belt-fed MMG (chambered in something fun, like 7.92×57mm Mauser) at the platoon level, and an AR-based squad lmg (like an RPK type weapon) at the squad level?

I'm trying to imagine a structure where I have an MMG and DMR-type weapon chambered in battle rifle cartridge (like 7.92×57mm) but the "common" LMG and assault rifle in 7.62×39mm (to accompany the common usage of AK-109 rifle and AK-104 carbine), and what the best way is to organize for ammo supply lines etc.

Or does this level of detail just not matter

Just do away with platoon level mg teams and give squads organic mmg as their main source of fire power.

[Cisairse]

Would it make sense to have a belt-fed MMG (chambered in something fun, like 7.92×57mm Mauser) at the platoon level, and an AR-based squad lmg (like an RPK type weapon) at the squad level?

I'm trying to imagine a structure where I have an MMG and DMR-type weapon chambered in battle rifle cartridge (like 7.92×57mm) but the "common" LMG and assault rifle in 7.62×39mm (to accompany the common usage of AK-109 rifle and AK-104 carbine), and what the best way is to organize for ammo supply lines etc.

Or does this level of detail just not matter

Just do away with platoon level mg teams and give squads organic mmg as their main source of fire power.

Doesn't this challenge the role of the IAR, thus fucking up supply lines?

Design your own... or just use MG 42's.

Yeah I kinda assumed I'd be designing my own here. That's fine though it fits ICly

Cisairsean military are very NIMBYlty whenever they can overcome budget cuts.
And IMO a modern-day 7.92x57 MMG is pretty cool.

[Cisairse]

It is close enough to 7.62x51 mm and 7.62x57 mm just about any common full-power MG design could be used.

Yeah my idea was that our MMG would not be too far from the PKM, or M240.

[Immoren]

Just do away with platoon level mg teams and give squads organic mmg as their main source of fire power.

Doesn't this challenge the role of the IAR, thus fucking up supply lines?

Design your own... or just use MG 42's.

Yeah I kinda assumed I'd be designing my own here. That's fine though it fits ICly

Cisairsean military are very NIMBYlty whenever they can overcome budget cuts.
And IMO a modern-day 7.92x57 MMG is pretty cool.

Those boxes are already going to same address so that shouldn't be problem.
Also make squads have assault team and support team instead of two balanced fire teams and give iar to assault team and mmg to support team.*nods*

[Champagne Socialist Sharifistan]

I thought the fraternisation that was discouraged was between officers and enlistees

Depends on the army and the culture it comes from. In Purpelia it's generally considered bad if there is any real relationship but like sex is encouraged,

but camraderie is generally considered essential (and even the main combat motivation) by most military experts

[Spirit of Hope]

Depends on the army and the culture it comes from. In Purpelia it's generally considered bad if there is any real relationship but like sex is encouraged,

but camraderie is generally considered essential (and even the main combat motivation) by most military experts

I was unaware you needed to have sex and/or a sexual relationship with someone to generate commraderie with them. I have been leading my platoon very wrong.

Realistically fraternization is only really an issue when it is up or down the chain of command, despite the headaches from LCpl dating within the platoon it isn't a major concern.

The basic question of a separate "gay only" battalion at it's core doesn't really gain or loose you anything. It might present some small issues, but nothing that can't be handled by competent officers and NCOs. It just becomes a weird cultural thing, that given what you have said about your nation doesn't make a lot of sense and doesn't match up with how the sacred band actually operated.

[Manokan Republic]

How much wisdom is there in "1 volunteer is worth 10 conscripts"?

There is truth in it, in that a volunteer tends to be better. Frontline infantry and special forces are generally almost always volunteers, so volunteers who want to fight generally make the best soldiers. It could be said that frontline infantry or special forces are worth "10 conscripts" in that respect. That being said, it depends on the purpose; in WWII many conscripts were never even deployed to the battlefield, put in to specialty or logistics roles off the front lines. In these circumstances they're worse than volunteers, but their sheer numbers makes up for that. Maybe 1/3rd of U.S. troops in WWII were volunteers, and so they were prioritized for front-line combat, as they were the most likely to want to fight and thus do well in training. You have to really want to succeed to get through many forms of combat training, and so volunteers naturally do much better at it, are willing to risk their lives etc.

[Manokan Republic]

No. Pistols are fairly worthless. If the MG stops working the most intelligent course of action is to fix it. The only reason a pistol might be needed is if the MGs being used have a reputation for unreliability and the gunners need the peace of mind that comes from carrying some kind of alternate - the pistol is still effectively irrelevant but enabling the gunner to keep a cool head when his weapon does fail is certainly useful. So he can fix it faster.

AGAIN, you are thinking about this wrong. Combat is not like a video game where you have one heroic guy with big guns running around killing EVERYTHING on his own whilst other characters either don't exist or are completely useless NPC's that only exist to die dramatically. A squad operates like a unit ALL OF THE TIME. It does not matter if you are in a trench, in a city, storming a highrise or a bunker or fighting aliens in the grim cold darkness of space there are always 5-10 guys who are equal or better to you at fighting and just as heavily armed to back you up. And if not, than something has gone terribly horribly wrong and having or not having a handgun is the least of your worries.

Even I know this and I have not even seen a firearm in real life, let alone a military.


War is not a shooter. It's a coop game.

Alright, no sidearm it is.

Are there any viable 7.92x57mm machine guns for 2020 or should I design my own

A sidearm is definitely worth it, and most U.S. soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan who were machine gunners carried a side arm, I knew quite a few that did. It shouldn't be relied upon as a main combat instrument, but most did have it. A small light carbine type weapon would be better however for self defense or combat.

A 7.92mm x 57mm machine gun is likely not going to be much better than 7.62mm x 51mm NATO or 7.62mm x 54mmR, but the round is not widely used anymore except in specific sniper rifles, so there aren't many machine gun that will use it. A modern machine gun simply rechambered in 8mm makes sense, such as the M240 which was used by a broad range of countries. A modern MG42 might look like an MG3, so that's a good basis for the design of a new gun, and the browning series of machine gun were chambered in just about everything, so that would still be somewhat historically accurate.

I also recommend one machine gun team and then two fireteams flanking it, so you can employ leap frog tactics but also use the machine gun. I know you're already planning on doing this essentially.

[Husseinarti]

Depends in some countries and times images of atrocity victims are used in recruitment propoganda.

But mostly with the slogan of "you can avenge this" and not "you can become this". Big difference.
Dead baby stick on a bayonet? Great propaganda. Raped teen girls with their faces peeled off? Just as good. Soldiers being tortured... yea let's not.

what the fuck is wrong with you no

the US public was averse to dead people being put in their media even if it was the enemy

But mostly with the slogan of "you can avenge this" and not "you can become this". Big difference.
Dead baby stick on a bayonet? Great propaganda. Raped teen girls with their faces peeled off? Just as good. Soldiers being tortured... yea let's not.

True but likewise seeing your comrade injured when you're already in can motivate people to fight more bravely

But you dont know how that works

You dont know how people take loss.

Dont hedge your fucking bets on the best outcomes, you hedge them on the most bland or the worst outcomes.

Watching someone you love die in combat is a terrible thing, and it may either make someone vengeful or depressed. However that vengence may cloud their ability to make clam and sound military decisions and make them, or others die in combat needlessly.

[Dayganistan]

Those boxes are already going to same address so that shouldn't be problem.
Also make squads have assault team and support team instead of two balanced fire teams and give iar to assault team and mmg to support team.*nods*

I've gone with an MMG team to provide an overall base of fire to the squad and then two balanced fireteams of fireteam leader, automatic rifleman (armed with a belt fed SAW rather than an RPK/M27 alike), grenadier, and a baseline rifleman. At least for light infantry formations. In mechanized formations the IFV would replace the MMG team.

[Fordorsia]

Reminder that real life isn't a movie. A person isn't going to see someone they care about die in combat then go full berserker mode. While that may be more likely to happen in classical warfare when culture and mindsets were different and combat was almost entirely hand to hand at close quarters, that is simply not going to happen in firearm warfare. Again the Sacred Band's effectiveness in combat came from them being a permanent unit of professional soldiers amongst an army and a country of mostly levies.

[Taihei Tengoku]

"atrocity footage is never good propaganda"