NATION

PASSWORD

Infantry Discussion Thread part 11: Gallas Razor edition.

A place to put national factbooks, embassy exchanges, and other information regarding the nations of the world. [In character]

Advertisement

Remove ads

User avatar
Post War America
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 7951
Founded: Sep 05, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Post War America » Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:15 am

Ormata wrote:
Post War America wrote:
No, because Ga Pa tactics were dated when they were conceived of, relied heavily on a substantial qualitative edge of the troops in question, and because muskets of the late 17th and early 18th centuries were still relatively inaccurate and slow firing (something to which I can personally attest). By the mid 19th century breechloading weapons could conceivably be common, and repeating weapons not unheard of, and rifled weapons, as a rule, are capable of much more accurate fire than muskets (this is again referring to personal experience). While the difference in fire rate between a percussion cap muzzle loading rifle musket and a flint or wheel lock musket might not be significant, the change in accuracy alone would see your men at a critical disadvantage in firepower given that you're losing a third of your rifles in exchange for pikes. This of course is made worse if your opponents were to have for example, 1859 Sharps rifles, or worse Spencer rifles.

In battle this would largely result in your troops being cut to ribbons before they could get close, and would as a result be weaker in the melee, if they made it into melee in the first place, which thus deprives your troops of the critical momentum needed to make Ga Pa work. This is what happened against the Russians in the early 18th century, who were equipped with muskets, and would be much much worse in the mid 19th where rifle muskets and rifles have become the norm.


Since I'm talking about the use of Ga Pa by Union troops against Confederates, somehow I doubt I'll be facing a large number of breechloading and repeating weapons. I may be wrong in thinking that most Confederates were not armed with such muskets, but hey that's just me. This said, I was under the impression that standard muskets of that period were not so accurate.

But thank you for your explanation on the reason.


Even the confederates were primarily using (largely imported or copied from the Union) muzzle loading percussion cap rifle muskets. I would much rather be charging into fire from Land Pattern Muskets or the equivalents than I would Enfield or Lorenz rifles.
Ceterum autem censeo Carthaginem delendam esse
Proudly Banned from the 10000 Islands
For those who care
A PMT Social Democratic Genepunk/Post Cyberpunk Nation the practices big (atomic) stick diplomacy
Not Post-Apocalyptic
Economic Left: -9.62
Social Libertarian: -6.00
Unrepentant New England Yankee
Gravlen wrote:The famous Bowling Green Massacre is yesterday's news. Today it's all about the Cricket Blue Carnage. Tomorrow it'll be about the Curling Yellow Annihilation.

User avatar
Spirit of Hope
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12104
Founded: Feb 21, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Spirit of Hope » Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:24 am

Champagne Socialist Sharifistan wrote:How much wisdom is there in "1 volunteer is worth 10 conscripts"?


There is no wisdom in it, the quality of your troops is much better determined by the quality of their training and leadership than by how they were recruited.

Look at history, conscript armies were the rule for much of the 20th century.
Fact Book.
Helpful hints on combat vehicle terminology.

Imperializt Russia wrote:Support biblical marriage! One SoH and as many wives and sex slaves as he can afford!

User avatar
Gallia-
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 25421
Founded: Oct 09, 2013
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Gallia- » Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:37 am

The obvious issue is that a 1860's rifle company of about a hundred or so men can put down as much firepower as a Swedish battalion of 1,200, in terms of targets hit per volley, from about four to six times the distance. Against that, obviously, a battalion of Swedes from 1650 facing a company of Confederates would be scythed down by the incredible firepower of the latter, pikes or not, before they ever got close to the 50 yards or so they normally fired from. With something as common as an 1853 Enfield you'd be laying down effective massed fire from 400 yards. At a double quick pace the Swedes would need to advance through almost half a dozen increasingly accurate volleys and they would probably die or rout before they got under 100 yards, much less 50.

Duh.

It's not really a surprise that a small tactical unit from 200 years in the future can obliterate a similar purpose tactical unit though.

tl;dr No
Last edited by Gallia- on Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:41 am, edited 4 times in total.

User avatar
The Akasha Colony
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14157
Founded: Apr 25, 2010
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The Akasha Colony » Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:44 am

Ormata wrote:Since I'm talking about the use of Ga Pa by Union troops against Confederates, somehow I doubt I'll be facing a large number of breechloading and repeating weapons. I may be wrong in thinking that most Confederates were not armed with such muskets, but hey that's just me. This said, I was under the impression that standard muskets of that period were not so accurate.

But thank you for your explanation on the reason.


The failure to adapt battlefield tactics to the significantly increased accuracy and commensurately increased lethality of 1850-1860s rifle-muskets was a common theme of early Civil War battles (and even a number of later battles). And these tactics themselves were only a few decades out of date, not centuries.
A colony of the New Free Planets Alliance.
The primary MT nation of this account is the Republic of Carthage.
New Free Planets Alliance (FT)
New Terran Republic (FT)
Republic of Carthage (MT)
World Economic Union (MT)
Kaiserreich Europa Zentral (PT/MT)
Five Republics of Hanalua (FanT)
National Links: Factbook Entry | Embassy Program
Storefronts: Carthaginian Naval Export Authority [MT, Navy]

User avatar
Fordorsia
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 20431
Founded: Oct 04, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Fordorsia » Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:04 am

Purpelia wrote:It's random idea time.

Reloading muzzle loading firearms whilst on horseback is difficult to impossible. But what if one was to attach a 3rd stirrup to the saddle? The idea here is that when you want to reload you brace the but of the rifle in the stirrup, hold it up with your left hand and use the right hand to reload. This should give you a firm solid way to hold the rifle as if it was braced to the ground, assuming the horse does not jiggle too much.

Y/N/Comments?


To reload on the move, it would be tricky, but a stirrup to support the butt would probably make it impossible, because it would then be basically attached to the saddle which is moving all over the place. Better to just hold it unsupported where it has some level of stabilization.
Use a captive ramrod if you want something fancy to help reloading on horseback. Makes it faster with less hassle and prevents you dropping the ramrod.

As for shooting, yes muzzle loaders were shot on the move. Dragoons were intended to just be mobile infantry who dismounted before engaging, but light cavalry also absolutely ran around firing on the move as skirmishers. Being able to ride along an enemy formation, fire into it then ride off to reload at a safe distance is highly valuable.
Last edited by Fordorsia on Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:14 am, edited 2 times in total.
Pro: Swords
Anti: Guns

San-Silvacian wrote:Forgot to take off my Rhodie shorts when I went to sleep.
Woke up in bitches and enemy combatants.

Crookfur wrote:Speak for yourself, Crookfur infantry enjoy the sheer uber high speed low drag operator nature of their tactical woad

Spreewerke wrote:One of our employees ate a raw kidney and a raw liver and the only powers he gained was the ability to summon a massive hospital bill.

Premislyd wrote:This is probably the best thing somebody has ever spammed.

Puzikas wrote:That joke was so dark it has to smile to be seen at night.

User avatar
Crookfur
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10822
Founded: Antiquity
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Crookfur » Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:27 am

As ever depends on the dragoons and the british way of doing things always had to be different. Like "we can't be fucked with multiple types of cavalry and let's just make all cavalry dragoons"
"But sir we are heavy horse!"
"No you are now heavy dragoons so you get massive swords, enormous pistols and carbines that are full size land pattern muskets minus the bayonet lug and you pretty much get to do your normal heavy horse charging into things type work. As for the rest of you, congratulations you are light dragoons, now go and sleep in ditches whilst we wait a hundred years to give you decent sabres and light carbine and decide what you are supposed to do other than everything. Of course that time those pretty pretty hussars will have shown up and they'll get all your nice gear and have to do the fancy charging horsey stuff whilst not sleeping in ditches and having to slum it with light infantry."
The Kingdom of Crookfur
Your ordinary everyday scotiodanavian freedom loving utopia!

And yes I do like big old guns, why do you ask?

User avatar
Austria-Bohemia-Hungary
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 25065
Founded: Jun 28, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:31 am

Crookfur wrote:As ever depends on the dragoons and the british way of doing things always had to be different. Like "we can't be fucked with multiple types of cavalry and let's just make all cavalry dragoons"

Wasn't that because paying for fully accoutred Regiments of Horse for the English government of 1700 AD was too onerous, and "Dragoon Guards" were cheaper? <.>
Last edited by Austria-Bohemia-Hungary on Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Crookfur
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10822
Founded: Antiquity
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Crookfur » Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:40 am

Pretty much as soon as wheel locks arrive shooting whilst the horse was one the move becomes a major thing. It was done most commonly done with pistols, mostly big buggers (hence horse pistols) to try and retain as much effect in a one handed package as possible. Carbines were often also fired depending on the "carbine" and whatever idea was passing through someone's head when they were defining a carbine on that particular day.

A big tactic for a while was the carracole where horse men rode up to the infantry formation turned to ride side on, blasted with their brace of pistols before turning away to bugger off and reload. Of course a bunch of clever commanders noticed that this did bugger all except make the noble and rich cavalry feel cool at having done something and some times it went horribly wrong. Thus things involved to the pistols being fired just becontact on a full charge and then being retained for a melee against other cavary.
The Kingdom of Crookfur
Your ordinary everyday scotiodanavian freedom loving utopia!

And yes I do like big old guns, why do you ask?

User avatar
Crookfur
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10822
Founded: Antiquity
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Crookfur » Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:15 am

Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:
Crookfur wrote:As ever depends on the dragoons and the british way of doing things always had to be different. Like "we can't be fucked with multiple types of cavalry and let's just make all cavalry dragoons"

Wasn't that because paying for fully accoutred Regiments of Horse for the English government of 1700 AD was too onerous, and "Dragoon Guards" were cheaper? <.>

Yup, just another round of the enternal war between the british armed forces and their true enemy: the exchequer/treasury.
The Kingdom of Crookfur
Your ordinary everyday scotiodanavian freedom loving utopia!

And yes I do like big old guns, why do you ask?

User avatar
Purpelia
Post Czar
 
Posts: 34249
Founded: Oct 19, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Purpelia » Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:45 am

Fordorsia wrote:
Purpelia wrote:It's random idea time.

Reloading muzzle loading firearms whilst on horseback is difficult to impossible. But what if one was to attach a 3rd stirrup to the saddle? The idea here is that when you want to reload you brace the but of the rifle in the stirrup, hold it up with your left hand and use the right hand to reload. This should give you a firm solid way to hold the rifle as if it was braced to the ground, assuming the horse does not jiggle too much.

Y/N/Comments?


To reload on the move, it would be tricky, but a stirrup to support the butt would probably make it impossible, because it would then be basically attached to the saddle which is moving all over the place. Better to just hold it unsupported where it has some level of stabilization.
Use a captive ramrod if you want something fancy to help reloading on horseback. Makes it faster with less hassle and prevents you dropping the ramrod.

As for shooting, yes muzzle loaders were shot on the move. Dragoons were intended to just be mobile infantry who dismounted before engaging, but light cavalry also absolutely ran around firing on the move as skirmishers. Being able to ride along an enemy formation, fire into it then ride off to reload at a safe distance is highly valuable.

Riding off to a safe distance to reload means they ride off, stop and than reload. Which is really where this comes in too. Like, I have no illusions about it being used whilst the horse is moving, Only when it's stationary. It's really meant to replace the awkward first generation of breach loading carbines. The stuff that still used cap and ball, needed 3 hands to reload and had no decent seal and stuff. Design vise it would, as you say be basically just a stirrup shoe shaped metal bit attached directly to the saddle. Anything more than that and it'd flop around which is not good. So it's like something you'd see in the 1800-1850 period. As soon as metallic cartridges, or hell even decent needle rifles come into being it's out.
Last edited by Purpelia on Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
Purpelia does not reflect my actual world views. In fact, the vast majority of Purpelian cannon is meant to shock and thus deliberately insane. I just like playing with the idea of a country of madmen utterly convinced that everyone else are the barbarians. So play along or not but don't ever think it's for real.



The above post contains hyperbole, metaphoric language, embellishment and exaggeration. It may also include badly translated figures of speech and misused idioms. Analyze accordingly.

User avatar
Triplebaconation
Senator
 
Posts: 3940
Founded: Feb 22, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Triplebaconation » Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:05 pm

Image
Proverbs 23:9.

Things are a bit larger than you appear to think, my friend.

User avatar
Kazarogkai
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8065
Founded: Jan 27, 2012
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Kazarogkai » Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:40 pm

Purpelia wrote:It's random idea time.

Reloading muzzle loading firearms whilst on horseback is difficult to impossible. But what if one was to attach a 3rd stirrup to the saddle? The idea here is that when you want to reload you brace the but of the rifle in the stirrup, hold it up with your left hand and use the right hand to reload. This should give you a firm solid way to hold the rifle as if it was braced to the ground, assuming the horse does not jiggle too much.

Y/N/Comments?


No.

Better idea would be to go for the Berber Method of having extra long rifles that can have their stocks reach to the ground while on horseback. Problem is You gotta stop to reload but in the time period when gun armed cavalry were predominant you would have a tremendous range advantage against both enemy cavalry and even potentially foot borne infantry. Can't find a good picture but said rifles/muskets were used primarily in the Maghreb region and typically measured something like 8 to from what I heard 10 feet.
Centrist
Reactionary
Bigot
Conservationist
Communitarian
Georgist
Distributist
Corporatist
Nationalist
Teetotaler
Ancient weaponry
Politics
History in general
books
military
Fighting
Survivalism
Nature
Anthropology
hippys
drugs
criminals
liberals
philosophes(not counting Hobbes)
states rights
anarchist
people who annoy me
robots
1000 12 + 10
1100 18 + 15
1200 24 + 20
1300 24
1400 36 + 10
1500 54 + 20
1600 72 + 30
1700 108 + 40
1800 144 + 50
1900 288 + 60
2000 576 + 80

User avatar
Triplebaconation
Senator
 
Posts: 3940
Founded: Feb 22, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Triplebaconation » Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:04 am

Moukallas were slightly over 6 feet at most.

A 10-foot musket isn't going to give you any kind of range advantage lol.

Sling rings that hooked to a bandoleer and steadied the weapon while reloading were a universal feature of cavalry carbines.
Proverbs 23:9.

Things are a bit larger than you appear to think, my friend.

User avatar
Champagne Socialist Sharifistan
Senator
 
Posts: 4471
Founded: Dec 08, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Champagne Socialist Sharifistan » Sat Jun 27, 2020 4:52 am

Would it be easier or harder to get a criminal history waiver for the infantry than other branches?
A nation which partly represents my views.
Founder of the Traditionalist Military Alliance:https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=493756
The Turkish War of Independence and everything before along with 2014 modernisation are set in stone.
Everything else is subject to change

Black Lives Matter!

User avatar
Ormata
Senator
 
Posts: 4785
Founded: Jun 30, 2016
Iron Fist Socialists

Postby Ormata » Sat Jun 27, 2020 4:57 am

Champagne Socialist Sharifistan wrote:Would it be easier or harder to get a criminal history waiver for the infantry than other branches?


Depends on the era.

User avatar
Champagne Socialist Sharifistan
Senator
 
Posts: 4471
Founded: Dec 08, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Champagne Socialist Sharifistan » Sat Jun 27, 2020 5:08 am

Ormata wrote:
Champagne Socialist Sharifistan wrote:Would it be easier or harder to get a criminal history waiver for the infantry than other branches?


Depends on the era.

2020 but the infantry officers are about 90 years behind the times with regards things like recruitment, gender issues, class issues and morale.

The exceptions include accepting gay officers and men and a zero tolerance policy to any harassment or assault on women
Last edited by Champagne Socialist Sharifistan on Sat Jun 27, 2020 5:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
A nation which partly represents my views.
Founder of the Traditionalist Military Alliance:https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=493756
The Turkish War of Independence and everything before along with 2014 modernisation are set in stone.
Everything else is subject to change

Black Lives Matter!

User avatar
Ormata
Senator
 
Posts: 4785
Founded: Jun 30, 2016
Iron Fist Socialists

Postby Ormata » Sat Jun 27, 2020 5:12 am

Champagne Socialist Sharifistan wrote:
Ormata wrote:
Depends on the era.

2020 but the infantry officers are about 90 years behind the times with regards things like recruitment, gender issues, class issues and morale.

The exceptions include accepting gay officers and men and a zero tolerance policy to any harassment or assault on women


Jesus, OK.

Might as well also do conscription.

But yeah in the Gulf War they were actually letting people enlist in the Marines instead of prison time.


User avatar
Crookfur
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10822
Founded: Antiquity
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Crookfur » Sat Jun 27, 2020 5:57 am

Champagne Socialist Sharifistan wrote:Would it be easier or harder to get a criminal history waiver for the infantry than other branches?

One would assume easier as basic PBI tends not to need security clearances.
The Kingdom of Crookfur
Your ordinary everyday scotiodanavian freedom loving utopia!

And yes I do like big old guns, why do you ask?

User avatar
Kazarogkai
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8065
Founded: Jan 27, 2012
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Kazarogkai » Sun Jun 28, 2020 12:37 am

Triplebaconation wrote:Moukallas were slightly over 6 feet at most.

A 10-foot musket isn't going to give you any kind of range advantage lol.

Sling rings that hooked to a bandoleer and steadied the weapon while reloading were a universal feature of cavalry carbines.



8 Feet would be necessary for the aforementioned placing butt of rifle on the ground. The 10 foot ones were admittedly probably from Camel units I will say. And yes assuming one is using black powder unlike more modern powders the length of the barrel has a measurable effect on the velocity and consequently range of the Musket in question. Hence why said Aforementioned Berber Horsemen even without Rifling were able to regularly outrange their opponents in combat.
Centrist
Reactionary
Bigot
Conservationist
Communitarian
Georgist
Distributist
Corporatist
Nationalist
Teetotaler
Ancient weaponry
Politics
History in general
books
military
Fighting
Survivalism
Nature
Anthropology
hippys
drugs
criminals
liberals
philosophes(not counting Hobbes)
states rights
anarchist
people who annoy me
robots
1000 12 + 10
1100 18 + 15
1200 24 + 20
1300 24
1400 36 + 10
1500 54 + 20
1600 72 + 30
1700 108 + 40
1800 144 + 50
1900 288 + 60
2000 576 + 80

User avatar
Champagne Socialist Sharifistan
Senator
 
Posts: 4471
Founded: Dec 08, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Champagne Socialist Sharifistan » Sun Jun 28, 2020 2:14 am

Does having Gay Regiments (like the Sacred Band of Thebes) work in the modern world?
A nation which partly represents my views.
Founder of the Traditionalist Military Alliance:https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=493756
The Turkish War of Independence and everything before along with 2014 modernisation are set in stone.
Everything else is subject to change

Black Lives Matter!

User avatar
Triplebaconation
Senator
 
Posts: 3940
Founded: Feb 22, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Triplebaconation » Sun Jun 28, 2020 2:35 am

You think Berbers rode around with guns like this?

Image

Kazarogkai wrote: And yes assuming one is using black powder unlike more modern powders the length of the barrel has a measurable effect on the velocity and consequently range of the Musket in question. Hence why said Aforementioned Berber Horsemen even without Rifling were able to regularly outrange their opponents in combat.


Hmm...
Proverbs 23:9.

Things are a bit larger than you appear to think, my friend.

User avatar
Sevvania
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6891
Founded: Nov 12, 2010
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Sevvania » Sun Jun 28, 2020 2:45 am

Triplebaconation wrote:Hmm...

Image
"Humble thyself and hold thy tongue."

Current Era: 1945
NationStates Stat Card - Sevvania
OFFICIAL FACTBOOK - Sevvania
4/1/13 - Never Forget

User avatar
Arkandros
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1815
Founded: Jul 11, 2013
Father Knows Best State

Postby Arkandros » Sun Jun 28, 2020 3:38 am

Gallia- wrote:Daily reminder that 60% of Marine recruits required moral waivers in 1990 and '91.

Fun fact: the only modern US branch that allows you to enlist as an alternative to prison time is the US Navy. Other branches have instructions that expressly prohibit it.
“I can imagine no more rewarding a career. And any man who may be asked in this century what he did to make his life worthwhile, I think can respond with a good deal of pride and satisfaction: 'I served in the United States Navy.”
John F. Kennedy

User avatar
Champagne Socialist Sharifistan
Senator
 
Posts: 4471
Founded: Dec 08, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Champagne Socialist Sharifistan » Sun Jun 28, 2020 3:47 am

Champagne Socialist Sharifistan wrote:Does having Gay Regiments (like the Sacred Band of Thebes) work in the modern world?

Would it?
A nation which partly represents my views.
Founder of the Traditionalist Military Alliance:https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=493756
The Turkish War of Independence and everything before along with 2014 modernisation are set in stone.
Everything else is subject to change

Black Lives Matter!

PreviousNext

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to Factbooks and National Information

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Casodium, Urmanian

Advertisement

Remove ads