Infantry Discussion Thread part 11: Gallas Razor edition.

[Gallia-]

-snip-

So it would appear the Final Solution to upcoming pension troubles is to purge the elderly(kindly if your a democratic country I suppose). RIP

if you read what i said you would realize that isnt what i said, but whatever you want to think

after all it is a post-truth society

And I guess to bring the question back around to 'Infantry Discussion', has there ever been an any interest/study undertaken by anyone on what would be practical Uber Soldaten, involving said principles of eugenics/genetic engineering?

a good soldier should have an above average IQ about 110-115 on the Wechsler scale or so (although this would make him average IQ by default if you have so many that you end up needing to renorm the tests); be male, with a lean built body; be free of genetic/hereditary diseases or syndromes like alcoholism, depression, schizophrenia, autism, etc.; be literate, good at maths, and free of any physical abnormalities like scoliosis; and be of about average (5' 9") height

that's more than enough for an ubersoldat and can be found in the general population in adequate quantities to maintain a fairly strong field force, although it might not be able to subjugate and occupy two countries at once

a RL example would be if the US Army picked people who scored category I and II of the ASVAB, which correlates to a 65-99th percentile on a Wechsler scale, which is adequate for the IQ requirement, and everything else should generally be obvious except latent genetic/hereditary disorders like alcoholism/schizophrenia/depression, since remission would be noted on your medical records

if you wanted full ubersoldaten you would push for category Is (93-99 percentile) only, but that would require an abnormally large number of high IQs being drained from more useful things like basic research and engineering

Or is that all sci-fi shenanigans?

do you consider families with a history of military service to be science fiction?

[Puzikas]

Puz or someone help Gallia's scaring me

No
You jerk off a lot
I think I did about 4 times a day at some points
One week was rllg bad and I had to go to hospital for dehydration

i mean if you want to trade your self respect for getting a jacket potato(objectively the worst form of potato) 45 minutes faster then sure

iunno

the only way i could see it working is if youre working irl 100 hr weeks

so like an engineer or doctor or something with a really busy worklife that brings its own sense of self respect

or doesnt i guess but if youre busy enough that you cant afford to wait 45 minutes for food then it's fine rly

but people who actually work those kinds of hours arent the major consumer of instant foods

I work 120 hour weeks
Can confirm don't eat instamash because I'm not a fuck and I grew up in soviet union so I now eat good food forever
Except when I'm at work (always) when I eat either protein bars and drink weird expensive juices, or get sandwiches from mess.
Also want to die v often

My residency was far worse and marked with me living off of protein bars, hot pockets and soup
And sometimes yogurt which was actually usually just gogurt.

2bad puz isnt here to tell us how great it was eating raw potates in sovjet union

2bad hes current in commiefonia at a conference

"hella" kawaii?

OK those things are fucking vile. They're basically sawdust in a potato skin.

sawdust will make you strong

for when britain returns to the coal mines

They made fun of my accent
So much for inclusive

apparently residencies are 16 hours by law now

thanks obama

>Be me
>Be Resident
>Work 0400-2000
>Leave job
>Go to Paramedic shift at Bridgeport AMR service for 2130
>Work Paramedic from 2130-0630
>Go to Residency for 0700
>Repeat with descending 4 hour schedule for 4 years
>Cry a lot


Is there anything I need to answer or assess? I board a plane s o o n and won't be on for about ~14 hours.

[NeuPolska]

Puz or someone help Gallia's scaring me

No
You jerk off a lot
I think I did about 4 times a day at some points
One week was rllg bad and I had to go to hospital for dehydration

You mean you can actually go to the hospital for jacking off too much?

I mean no offense of course but that's so fucking hilarious

[Puzikas]

I wasn't eating or drinking at the time
It was just
Inspection-mess-jerkoff-rifle range-jerkoff-rifle range-jerkoff-mess-ruck-jerkoff-mess-jerkoff-jerkoff-sleep(jerk off) for a week

Three days in hospital for dehydration and exhaustion!

[Ord Caprica]

I wasn't eating or drinking at the time
It was just
Inspection-mess-jerkoff-rifle range-jerkoff-rifle range-jerkoff-mess-ruck-jerkoff-mess-jerkoff-jerkoff-sleep(jerk off) for a week

Three days in hospital for dehydration and exhaustion!

You in the Gun Club?

[Austrasien]

So it would appear the Final Solution to upcoming pension troubles is to purge the elderly(kindly if your a democratic country I suppose). RIP

If you want to see the future of the welfare state just look at Venezuela. As the gap between revenue and expenditures grows and debt service takes up an ever larger share of revenue governments will increasingly turn to price controls and inflationary printing to meet welfare obligations, which will result in rising prices, which will be countered with price controls, which will lead to shortages and the hollowing out of industries, which will push more people onto welfare, which will cause more inflation, which will...

And a lot of old people will drop dead. Not because anyone killed them but because they froze to death standing in the line for insulin at the Pharmacy for 16 hours in the middle of winter. Or because they got heat stroke during a heat wave while they were at the bottom of a three-year waiting list for an air conditioner at the official price. Meanwhile, drug mule will take on a new meaning as Mexican cartels send runners to try and scale the wall and make it across the heavily militarized US-Mexican border carrying priceless loads of generic Indian pain medication and antibiotics that wealthy Americans will pay princely sums (in a valuable currency like bitcoin) for equal to thousands of times their original cost, as they are virtually unobtainable through the officially regulated market.

[Gallia-]

the grimmest ftur

e: i mean bitcoin

[Theodosiya]

Well, bleak situation for the west, i guess. Funny, i always think the west are always superior and will march on, while many 3rd worlders will die en masse. If not because of war, then of something else. Anyway, what's the fate of most countries? Aside from most of the west and PRC-Russian Federation? Mere playthings or what?

[Cerma]

So it would appear the Final Solution to upcoming pension troubles is to purge the elderly(kindly if your a democratic country I suppose). RIP

To clarify, I intended the above to be sarcastic. A poor attempt at it with pensions and the elderly with the previously mentioned forced euthanasia by Nazi Germany.
Forgive me I have much to learn...

In truth, I'm not disagreeing with the predictions on the future of pensions. It makes sense to me that problems are approaching for an increasing welfare expenditure with an ever decreasing income from lack of taxpayers. I don't really have the expertise on the matter so I can't fully infer a conclusion of my own, so I'll definitely take what is said to mind.

a good soldier should have an above average IQ about 110-115 on the Wechsler scale or so (although this would make him average IQ by default if you have so many that you end up needing to renorm the tests); be male, with a lean built body; be free of genetic/hereditary diseases or syndromes like alcoholism, depression, schizophrenia, autism, etc.; be literate, good at maths, and free of any physical abnormalities like scoliosis; and be of about average (5' 9") height

that's more than enough for an ubersoldat and can be found in the general population in adequate quantities to maintain a fairly strong field force, although it might not be able to subjugate and occupy two countries at once

a RL example would be if the US Army picked people who scored category I and II of the ASVAB, which correlates to a 65-99th percentile on a Wechsler scale, which is adequate for the IQ requirement, and everything else should generally be obvious except latent genetic/hereditary disorders like alcoholism/schizophrenia/depression, since remission would be noted on your medical records

if you wanted full ubersoldaten you would push for category Is (93-99 percentile) only, but that would require an abnormally large number of high IQs being drained from more useful things like basic research and engineering

do you consider families with a history of military service to be science fiction?

Very well. Would there be any good reason to have an Ubersoldat 'elite' fighting force exist within an army? Or would this be redundant/hurt the rest of the army by sweeping up the most qualified soldiers into this single group?

[Halfblakistan]

Thoughts on the [url=Mitznefet]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitznefet_(Israeli_military)[/url]? Does it increase stealthitude or is it just-goofy-looking?

[Gallia-]

Very well. Would there be any good reason to have an Ubersoldat 'elite' fighting force exist within an army? Or would this be redundant/hurt the rest of the army by sweeping up the most qualified soldiers into this single group?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Commandos
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Berets
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Navy_SEALs

there is a reason you might want high IQs in a special unit or something, especially if it's intended to fight in highly fluid, dangerous, and quickly changing situations

but it generally sucks up the best possible men you could have in a line unit

[NeuPolska]

Thoughts on the [url=Mitznefet]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitznefet_(Israeli_military)[/url]? Does it increase stealthitude or is it just-goofy-looking?

[Theodosiya]

Probably gonna issue it to all three forces. (Armed, NG and Presidential Guard)

[Free-Don]

Random question time.

Given that all of the safety problems on open bolt SMG's like the MP40 boil down to the gun accidentally chambering a round and than going out control as a result why didn't people just install a magazine cutoff? It strikes me that this would be the perfect safety mechanism for guns of that type. But nobody did that.

The drop has to be on hard ground with enough energy to overcome the spring, the mass of the bolt, and maybe turn the safety around, smash through a dust cover, etc.

The cheap answer that's actually safer is to put a dust cover on that can lock the bolt either forward or rearward when not in use. That or a cross bolt safety that pervents the bolt from sliding over or past that magaine well. Adding a cut off effects the magaine, the magazine well, the chamber of the gun, and possibly everything around the grip. Likewise it removes the most important thing about SMGs/PDWs: Lightweight high volumes of fire.

---

On that note: How bad would it be for a nation state (engaged in a conflict similar in technology and tactical mindset as ww2) to produce lots of cheap smgs rather than rifles. A squad might be ten guys carrying: 1 a nco/officer pistol, 1 Automatic support weapon, 4ish pre-conflict bolt guns, and 4+ smgs.

The smgs are cheap, open bolt, off-axis or simple blowback, uses detachable curved/box magazines, the magazines are single stack low capacity (between 10-15 rounds 9x19mm), and can sorta be clip feed. Probably have someone figure out how to put the magazine in the grip (just move the whole thing backwards and use the back of the receiver as a stock), raise the sights (think about the ar/m16/m4 or famas style carry handle sights except a open notch), and a metal dust cover that works as a safety with the block locking on it when in the closed position.

This is also assuming we are both using similar artillery tactics and infantry tactics with my nation being on the defensive with a few short offensives in the north and south regions. The environments are many: Including a large central desert and plains, a large northern desert mountain region that expands into a heavily wooded western mountain region, and the more populated swampish river region in the south.

[Gallia-]

I JUST FOUND THE C U T E S T ANIMAL EVER PLS WAIT A MOMENTS

no rly it'll be worth it and it's even vaguely related to the thread too

[Puzikas]

Waiting.

On that note: How bad would it be for a nation state (engaged in a conflict similar in technology and tactical mindset as ww2) to produce lots of cheap smgs rather than rifles.

these guys did it

Thoughts on the Mitznefet? Does it increase stealthitude or is it just-goofy-looking?

Le funny merchant hat keeps the unnaturally spherical outline of the helmet and ergo the human head from giving away the position of the troop, as both are unnaturally round in accordance with nature. The same is true from less conventional helmet designs that too are also unnaturally rounded and have unnaturally clean angles.

Hence the Bakers cap of the Baked: by disrupting the usual curvature and lines with unnatural fluffiness, yuo are now like motzo: unrising, unseen, and untouched.

I wasn't eating or drinking at the time
It was just
Inspection-mess-jerkoff-rifle range-jerkoff-rifle range-jerkoff-mess-ruck-jerkoff-mess-jerkoff-jerkoff-sleep(jerk off) for a week

Three days in hospital for dehydration and exhaustion!

You in the Gun Club?

in a manner of speaking I suppose.

[Crookfur]

Random question time.

Given that all of the safety problems on open bolt SMG's like the MP40 boil down to the gun accidentally chambering a round and than going out control as a result why didn't people just install a magazine cutoff? It strikes me that this would be the perfect safety mechanism for guns of that type. But nobody did that.

The drop has to be on hard ground with enough energy to overcome the spring, the mass of the bolt, and maybe turn the safety around, smash through a dust cover, etc.

The cheap answer that's actually safer is to put a dust cover on that can lock the bolt either forward or rearward when not in use. That or a cross bolt safety that pervents the bolt from sliding over or past that magaine well. Adding a cut off effects the magaine, the magazine well, the chamber of the gun, and possibly everything around the grip. Likewise it removes the most important thing about SMGs/PDWs: Lightweight high volumes of fire.

---

On that note: How bad would it be for a nation state (engaged in a conflict similar in technology and tactical mindset as ww2) to produce lots of cheap smgs rather than rifles. A squad might be ten guys carrying: 1 a nco/officer pistol, 1 Automatic support weapon, 4ish pre-conflict bolt guns, and 4+ smgs.

The smgs are cheap, open bolt, off-axis or simple blowback, uses detachable curved/box magazines, the magazines are single stack low capacity (between 10-15 rounds 9x19mm), and can sorta be clip feed. Probably have someone figure out how to put the magazine in the grip (just move the whole thing backwards and use the back of the receiver as a stock), raise the sights (think about the ar/m16/m4 or famas style carry handle sights except a open notch), and a metal dust cover that works as a safety with the block locking on it when in the closed position.

This is also assuming we are both using similar artillery tactics and infantry tactics with my nation being on the defensive with a few short offensives in the north and south regions. The environments are many: Including a large central desert and plains, a large northern desert mountain region that expands into a heavily wooded western mountain region, and the more populated swampish river region in the south.

As puz said it was done although not just by the british but pretty much everyone to some extent.

You would probably still be producing rifles as you would already have all the tooling and factories ready to go and designing and tooling up to produce even the nastiest cheap SMGs in quantity will take time. Britain got lucky thanks to the involvement of tri-ang toys who had a lot of experience in sheet metal production. As for the magazine you probably want to use what ever 9mm Mags you already have in production, designing a new one is a further unessecary step. Feeding through the pistol grip was doable at the time but probably not worth it if going super cheap.

[Purpelia]

The drop has to be on hard ground with enough energy to overcome the spring, the mass of the bolt, and maybe turn the safety around, smash through a dust cover, etc.

It is my understanding that the safety issues were not really due to them being dropped but rather primarily related to the bolt handle catching on something in situations where you are doing things like trying to get out of a vehicle in a hurry. And primarily when the weapon was carried unloaded, bolt forward, like you might do if you wanted to keep things from getting into the action when you are not looking. And than you got a 9mm to the back of the head or whatever.

The cheap answer that's actually safer is to put a dust cover on that can lock the bolt either forward or rearward when not in use. That or a cross bolt safety that pervents the bolt from sliding over or past that magaine well. Adding a cut off effects the magaine, the magazine well, the chamber of the gun, and possibly everything around the grip. Likewise it removes the most important thing about SMGs/PDWs: Lightweight high volumes of fire.

Two things:

Firstly, both of those require about the same effort in terms of machining. They both require machining a new part, drilling a connection hole for it and adding some sort of pivot for it to work. And that is basically the same thing as a ye old bolt action magazine cutoff. At least the good ones. Like there were a few crazy designs that moved the magazine out of aliment and stuff. But for the most part it was just a sheet metal piece that pushed the first round in the magazine down and out of feeding range when engaged.

Secondly, even your mechanism, as good as it is in design, was rarely used. Most guns just had a safety to lock it back open and nothing to lock it closed. So either would be superior to that.

Also I am not saying this solution is the best one that everyone should have used. I am saying that it strikes me as an equally valid option to some real mechanism and a superior one to others. So I am curious as to why it was not explored when the others were.

[Free-Don]

It is my understanding that the safety issues were not really due to them being dropped but rather primarily related to the bolt handle catching on something in situations where you are doing things like trying to get out of a vehicle in a hurry. And primarily when the weapon was carried unloaded, bolt forward, like you might do if you wanted to keep things from getting into the action when you are not looking. And than you got a 9mm to the back of the head or whatever.

Two things:

Firstly, both of those require about the same effort in terms of machining. They both require machining a new part, drilling a connection hole for it and adding some sort of pivot for it to work. And that is basically the same thing as a ye old bolt action magazine cutoff. At least the good ones. Like there were a few crazy designs that moved the magazine out of aliment and stuff. But for the most part it was just a sheet metal piece that pushed the first round in the magazine down and out of feeding range when engaged.

Secondly, even your mechanism, as good as it is in design, was rarely used. Most guns just had a safety to lock it back open and nothing to lock it closed. So either would be superior to that.

Also I am not saying this solution is the best one that everyone should have used. I am saying that it strikes me as an equally valid option to some real mechanism and a superior one to others. So I am curious as to why it was not explored when the others were.

Not arguing some type of safety wouldn't have been a great addition. I fully support the idea of using a safety especially for something that shoots faster than I can type. The problem is a magazine cut off would probably require:

1. That you recharge the handle every couple of rounds rather than during a reload.
2. Stops 5 rounds from firing in succession not 1 round on it's own.
3. Limits the rate of fire.
4. Costs more than nothing (political thinking/opinioining).
5. Adds more space and parts to jam (poltical thinking/opinioning).
6. I'd take a grip safety over this idea (personal thoughts/opinions).

Your prescribed safety still doesn't fix the problem of a bullet getting carried into the chamber when dropped/snagged. Unless your intention is that the magazine should always be in a cutoff position and would be trained in that manner. Alternative to this is what I do with my airsoft thompson which is insert the magazine upside down and just flip it back in.

A drop safety IRL that works:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_dXVwZb33Q

As puz said it was done although not just by the british but pretty much everyone to some extent.

You would probably still be producing rifles as you would already have all the tooling and factories ready to go and designing and tooling up to produce even the nastiest cheap SMGs in quantity will take time. Britain got lucky thanks to the involvement of tri-ang toys who had a lot of experience in sheet metal production. As for the magazine you probably want to use what ever 9mm Mags you already have in production, designing a new one is a further unessecary step. Feeding through the pistol grip was doable at the time but probably not worth it if going super cheap.

Yeah I kinda get that that'll be the case. I'm thinking rifles were be a second line production to support the SMG take-over. In the process of keeping things cheap the magazine is a single stack so it basically is my nation's standard pistol magazine but longer sometimes. There probably a larger magazine conversion for my enemy's magazine.

What were some of the design challenges to making the magazine in the grip? All I was thinking was to move everything backward and get rid of the stock.

[Gallia-]

Waiting.

it will take a while because i need to draw a whole battery's worth of trucks and semitrailers but it will be worth it i think

it is a very c u t e animal

[Kouralia]

Waiting.

[Purpelia]

Not arguing some type of safety wouldn't have been a great addition. I fully support the idea of using a safety especially for something that shoots faster than I can type. The problem is a magazine cut off would probably require:

1. That you recharge the handle every couple of rounds rather than during a reload.
2. Stops 5 rounds from firing in succession not 1 round on it's own.
3. Limits the rate of fire.

I do not think you understand the purpose I am suggesting this for. It's supposed to be a safety mechanism. As in a gun shutoff switch. It's not supposed to effect the rate of fire or anything like that because the first thing you do to start firing would be to turn it off. That is why I am talking about the simplest possible might as well be a cross pin over the magazine top style design.

The idea here is that you'd carry it a closed bolt an empty chamber and with the cutoff engaged. And when you want to fire you'd flip the safety, rack the bolt and away you go.

Your prescribed safety still doesn't fix the problem of a bullet getting carried into the chamber when dropped/snagged. Unless your intention is that the magazine should always be in a cutoff position and would be trained in that manner. Alternative to this is what I do with my airsoft thompson which is insert the magazine upside down and just flip it back in.

No mechanism in the universe is useful if the soldier refuses to engage it.

A drop safety IRL that works:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_dXVwZb33Q

That's the kind of thing that happens when you've had up until the 70's to perfect a WW1 era firearms concept. I am talking about the 1920's when most SMG's were being designed.

[Free-Don]

I do not think you understand the purpose I am suggesting this for. It's supposed to be a safety mechanism. As in a gun shutoff switch. It's not supposed to effect the rate of fire or anything like that because the first thing you do to start firing would be to turn it off. That is why I am talking about the simplest possible might as well be a cross pin over the magazine top style design.

The idea here is that you'd carry it a closed bolt an empty chamber and with the cutoff engaged. And when you want to fire you'd flip the safety, rack the bolt and away you go.

No mechanism in the universe is useful if the soldier refuses to engage it.

That's the kind of thing that happens when you've had up until the 70's to perfect a WW1 era firearms concept. I am talking about the 1920's when most SMG's were being designed.

I feel like I'm starting to wake from a strange fever dream. That or I'm dying of malaria.

I think with just that little hint of cross pin over the magazine we may realize that one of the first things I proposed kinda what we're both looking for as a solution. A metal piece that prevents the bolt from ride far back enough to strip a bullet from the magazine right?

Unless you're gonna go back to something about pushing the bullets in the magazine down (21 or 31 magazine loaded with only 20 or 30 boolets would be a minimum requirement) or for some reason I remember you talking about having the magazine cut off after every 5 rounds (can't find where I might have heard that) then we're in agreement. Just a button and a rib.

Making a thing with that kinda idea right now but I think I'm gonna switch to a ak style swtich

[Ord Caprica]

I do not think you understand the purpose I am suggesting this for. It's supposed to be a safety mechanism. As in a gun shutoff switch. It's not supposed to effect the rate of fire or anything like that because the first thing you do to start firing would be to turn it off. That is why I am talking about the simplest possible might as well be a cross pin over the magazine top style design.

The idea here is that you'd carry it a closed bolt an empty chamber and with the cutoff engaged. And when you want to fire you'd flip the safety, rack the bolt and away you go.

No mechanism in the universe is useful if the soldier refuses to engage it.

That's the kind of thing that happens when you've had up until the 70's to perfect a WW1 era firearms concept. I am talking about the 1920's when most SMG's were being designed.

I feel like I'm starting to wake from a strange fever dream. That or I'm dying of malaria.

I think with just that little hint of cross pin over the magazine we may realize that one of the first things I proposed kinda what we're both looking for as a solution. A metal piece that prevents the bolt from ride far back enough to strip a bullet from the magazine right?

Unless you're gonna go back to something about pushing the bullets in the magazine down (21 or 31 magazine loaded with only 20 or 30 boolets would be a minimum requirement) or for some reason I remember you talking about having the magazine cut off after every 5 rounds (can't find where I might have heard that) then we're in agreement. Just a button and a rib.

Making a thing with that kinda idea right now but I think I'm gonna switch to a ak style swtich

We're taught in training to load one less than full capacity.

[Purpelia]

I feel like I'm starting to wake from a strange fever dream. That or I'm dying of malaria.

I think with just that little hint of cross pin over the magazine we may realize that one of the first things I proposed kinda what we're both looking for as a solution. A metal piece that prevents the bolt from ride far back enough to strip a bullet from the magazine right?

No, that is what you are looking at.

What I am looking at is a little piece of metal, a few millimeters thick that pivots sideways. And when pushed into the gun it pushes the first round in the magazine those few mm down and that prevents the bolt from picking it up. That way the bolt can still close and cycle fine. It just can't touch the bullets.

And the primary reason why I am looking at this specific arrangement is because it is something that would have been intimately familiar to firearms designers at the time and would have done a decent job as a safety in this case.

Unless you're gonna go back to something about pushing the bullets in the magazine down (21 or 31 magazine loaded with only 20 or 30 boolets would be a minimum requirement) or for some reason I remember you talking about having the magazine cut off after every 5 rounds (can't find where I might have heard that) then we're in agreement. Just a button and a rib.

I do not think you understand how magazine cutoffs work. So just watch: https://youtu.be/1ACVQKUMfoI?t=2m20s