Infantry Discussion Thread part 11: Gallas Razor edition.

[Gallia-]

In handloading,

who_cares

the casing is the most expensive part. According to all the math I've ever seen, the powder and bullet are less then 60% of the cost of the round.

Handloaders think $5/round is expensive.

You know that reloaded ammo sold from large companies? It's sometimes cheaper then brand new steel ammo....

I guess if you're hunting deer it's fine. It probably won't explode or anything and you only need to carry like 5-10 rounds. Elmer Fudd doesn't exactly play by the same rules as Olin or General Dynamics, obviously.

If you're trying to kill a guy wearing Ratnik or IOTV, you'll be shooting expensive armor piercing rounds (XM1184 will probably clock in at around $5-10/round since it's an outgrowth of ADVAP) at him, and probably need a couple shots to drop him. Since factories, nations, and armies are a lot less capital sensitive than 40 year old handloader-hunters they can eat the cost of a $0.03-0.05 brass case when the bullet itself is like 90% of the cost of the cartridge. It's not a concern at all and never really has been, except maybe in the 1880s or something, but steel cases wouldn't have changed that.

The only reason GD-OTS offered 6.8 NGSW in polymer is to cut mass though.

[Triplebaconation]

In handloading, the casing is the most expensive part. According to all the math I've ever seen, the powder and bullet are less then 60% of the cost of the round. I've seen a lot of videos and charts, and done my own math where this is the case.

No. In handloading skilled labor is the most expensive part. You have to teach people to do it and than have them spend hours doing it. Which is why nobody does it unless you really need ultra special hand loaded bullets because you think you are ultra special and unique and can do a better job than the factory or if there just isn't ammo out there to buy like for old black powder cartridges.

Brand new FMJ bullets, at least in 9x19mm, are a lot cheaper then brand new casings.

You know that reloaded ammo sold from large companies? It's sometimes cheaper then brand new steel ammo....

You need to look up the concept of economies of scale.

lol

Major ammunition companies don't handload fired brass. The cases are preprocessed en masse and then loaded in the same way as new factory ammunition.

Note that even for hobbyists "handloading" and "reloading" aren't necessarily the same thing with the same goals.

The main advantage of Shell Shock (which is a really stupid name) is that it's lighter than brass and steel.

[Gallia-]

What do you mean LCAAP didn't need to expand to accommodate hundreds of factory moms to produce thousands of handloaded blank cartridges pushed to their reloading stations in trolleys while broadly automated ammo lines churn behind them? o:

[Pentaga Giudici]

>Asks question about nation that literally can't afford to issue even M855, let alone M855A2 or whatever the fuck
>Mentions nations that make all of their ammo in steel casings
>Mentions nations who use rifles that prefer steel-casings most of the time
>"Casings won't matter, because you'll be using the most expensive bullets known to man, perhaps bullets so cutting edge they barely exist or are still being tested."

Even if we were purely talking about if super heavy pistol bullets shoved down into ultra-strong alloy casings...Those bullets would likely be HP or FMJ anyways.

If they were +p+ ultralite handgun bullets, well Russia does that, and they use steel casings...

No. In handloading skilled labor is the most expensive part. You have to teach people to do it and than have them spend hours doing it. Which is why nobody does it unless you really need ultra special hand loaded bullets because you think you are ultra special and unique and can do a better job than the factory or if there just isn't ammo out there to buy like for old black powder cartridges.


You need to look up the concept of economies of scale.

lol

Major ammunition companies don't handload fired brass. The cases are preprocessed en masse and then loaded in the same way as new factory ammunition.

The main advantage of Shell Shock (which is a really stupid name) is that it's lighter than brass and steel.

I never said it was handloaded as how this would be made, ever, never mentioned that. I mentioned that over and over again, steel-cased ammo is cheaper then brass-cased ammo. I mentioned that factor AND handloaded ammo is cheaper if casings are steel alloy OR once-fired casings.

So if brand new ammunition using steel casings is like 25-33% cheaper, and brand new steel alloy casings are cheaper then brand new brass casings,...and ammo that use once fired casings are like 25-33% cheaper...What do you think is going to happen when that all stacks?

[Triplebaconation]

I was responding to Purpelia, who doesn't understand economy of scale.

There's nothing wrong with Shell Shock. Hybrid cases will be probably be increasingly popular in the future.

Not sure what people are going on about steel cases. Even if cost isn't an issue you may want to conserve strategic materials where possible.

[Pentaga Giudici]

I was responding to Purpelia.

Pretend I was too.

[Gallia-]

>Asks question about nation that literally can't afford to issue even M855, let alone M855A2 or whatever the fuck

The United States literally gives this ammunition for free to its allies. There is literally not a country on Earth that cannot find modern ball ammunition.

>Mentions nations that make all of their ammo in steel casings

If you can't afford "foreign military aid" you clearly don't have factories either.

>"Casings won't matter, because you'll be using the most expensive bullets known to man, perhaps bullets so cutting edge they barely exist or are still being tested."

$15/round is a lot cheaper than .577 Martini Henry I don't know what you're talking about? Lol. ADVAP is expensive but only relative to general purpose ball ammo, which will probably still be used for training.

Even if we were purely talking about if super heavy pistol bullets shoved down into ultra-strong alloy casings...Those bullets would likely be HP or FMJ anyways.

If they were +p+ ultralite handgun bullets, well Russia does that, and they use steel casings...

Why are you obsessed with 9mm ++PP+69+ rounds?

9mm is only good if you intend to commit genocide these days. Granted, genocide is a very :developing country: thing to do, but the Kopassus get by with MP5s and G36s using brass cased ammo at normal pressures just fine. It's not like a T-shirt needs ultra high pressures to penetrate.

As has been stated, multiple times, by several people, the only reason to use anything besides brass is to cut some weight. Steel cuts weight by about 10%. Aluminum by about 60%. Polymer by around 30%. Aluminum is something of a wash though, but polymer case seems to work just fine in 6.8 NGSW which has an incredibly high pressure. Obviously this is case weight, not cartridge weight, so the actual weight savings is much lower.

So if brand new ammunition using steel casings is like 25-33% cheaper,

It isn't. The cost of a casing for someone like Olin or GD is probably like 20% of the cost of a cartridge. The propellant and bullet (normal ball) make up another 50% and the primer can just not be added because it's measured in mils. The rest goes to maintenance and improvements in the factory equipment, and paying the workers, and lining the shareholders' private business jets with cocaine and hookers.

What do you think is going to happen when that all stacks?

You are literally going to be shaving an actual penny. Maybe two!

Don't spend it all in one place.

[Korouse]

Layman here. I enjoy the in-depth discussions in this thread. If I read correctly someone mentioned WW3 France when it came to this whole brass discussion. What if instead of a monetary problem it became a physical lack of access due to the course of the war? Only asking because it obviously doesn't make much sense from an economic perspective when a military can just sell it back to smelt and reforge, instead of putting up a contract for a bunch of recycled ammunition they keep around or a military-industrial corporation tooling a factory and hiring workers for it all.

[Gallia-]

WW3 would be over so quickly I'm not sure it would matter. NATO would just surrender inside a month or something for want of ammo/elan and leave Germany to the Russians, then setup a new defensive line across the Rhine in France and the Low Countries. E-z.

Historically what happens is either a war ends fast enough that it doesn't matter what you do industrially, or a war lasts long enough that industrial output, and ability to attack it, becomes the determining factor of victory. Alternatively a war lasts so long that you not only have time to produce new ammo plants, but it becomes a general facet of background noise and hardly registers on anyone's radar, meanwhile you're importing billions of rounds of ammo from Allied countries to fuel your overseas adventures, but if WW3 turned out to be a colonial expedition I'm sure a lot of people would be disappointed.

[Purpelia]

I was responding to Purpelia, who doesn't understand economy of scale.

There's nothing wrong with Shell Shock. Hybrid cases will be probably be increasingly popular in the future.

Not sure what people are going on about steel cases. Even if cost isn't an issue you may want to conserve strategic materials where possible.

You clearly did not follow our discussions than. Plural. There are several separate tangents here.

Tangent 1: Having your military reload its brass is dumb because economies of scale mean its cheaper to just have factories build new casings for you.

Tangent 2: Steel vs brass is really just irrelevant overall. Use whatever. Seriously, you are making millions of them. Unless there is some massive overriding problem economy vise just use whatever. The god of scale will make it all even out.

Tangent 3: I do not see anything particularly enticing about this shell shock thing. And PG seems to not so much be making arguments for it as he is fishing for ways to justify using it by making up answers to questions nobody asked. Which makes the whole thing sound very much like a solution waiting for a problem like metal storm was. Maybe it's good, maybe it's bad. But his arguments for it are just unconvincing.

[Pentaga Giudici]

WW3 would be over so quickly I'm not sure it would matter. NATO would just surrender inside a month or something for want of ammo/elan and leave Germany to the Russians, then setup a new defensive line across the Rhine in France and the Low Countries. E-z.

Historically what happens is either a war ends fast enough that it doesn't matter what you do industrially, or a war lasts long enough that industrial output, and ability to attack it, becomes the determining factor of victory. Alternatively a war lasts so long that you not only have time to produce new ammo plants, but it becomes a general facet of background noise and hardly registers on anyone's radar, meanwhile you're importing billions of rounds of ammo from Allied countries to fuel your overseas adventures, but if WW3 turned out to be a colonial expedition I'm sure a lot of people would be disappointed.

This is a conflict where they are fighting Spain, Italy, and the Balkans along with the Far-Right in their own territories.

I was responding to Purpelia, who doesn't understand economy of scale.

There's nothing wrong with Shell Shock. Hybrid cases will be probably be increasingly popular in the future.

Not sure what people are going on about steel cases. Even if cost isn't an issue you may want to conserve strategic materials where possible.

You clearly did not follow our discussions than. Plural. There are several separate tangents here.

Tangent 1: Having your military reload its brass is dumb because economies of scale mean its cheaper to just have factories build new casings for you.

Tangent 2: Steel vs brass is really just irrelevant overall. Use whatever. Seriously, you are making millions of them. Unless there is some massive overriding problem economy vise just use whatever. The god of scale will make it all even out.

Tangent 3: I do not see anything particularly enticing about this shell shock thing. And PG seems to not so much be making arguments for it as he is fishing for ways to justify using it by making up answers to questions nobody asked. Which makes the whole thing sound very much like a solution waiting for a problem like metal storm was. Maybe it's good, maybe it's bad. But his arguments for it are just unconvincing.

Explain to me why brand new ammo from the largest ammo plant in the US costs considerably more then "reloaded ammo" using the exact same bullets.

Even if the brand new ammo is on sale, for two years in a row, it cost a good bit more.

Your arguements literally don't make any sense. You're suggesting it makes sense to build massive factories to build ammo that is worse, and costs more.

The steel alloy is pretty much better in every single way it could be better. Cheaper, lighter, stronger, cooler to the touch, ect ect.

[Gallia-]

WW3 would be over so quickly I'm not sure it would matter. NATO would just surrender inside a month or something for want of ammo/elan and leave Germany to the Russians, then setup a new defensive line across the Rhine in France and the Low Countries. E-z.

Historically what happens is either a war ends fast enough that it doesn't matter what you do industrially, or a war lasts long enough that industrial output, and ability to attack it, becomes the determining factor of victory. Alternatively a war lasts so long that you not only have time to produce new ammo plants, but it becomes a general facet of background noise and hardly registers on anyone's radar, meanwhile you're importing billions of rounds of ammo from Allied countries to fuel your overseas adventures, but if WW3 turned out to be a colonial expedition I'm sure a lot of people would be disappointed.

This is a conflict where they are fighting Spain, Italy, and the Balkans along with the Far-Right in their own territories.

That shouldn't be too hard it's not like Spain or Italy are very tough cookies. One can barely produce functional warships and tanks, and the other has to pay protection money to the Taliban.

[Purpelia]

Explain to me why brand new ammo from the largest ammo plant in the US costs considerably more then "reloaded ammo" using the exact same bullets.

Even if the brand new ammo is on sale, for two years in a row, it cost a good bit more.

Your arguements literally don't make any sense. You're suggesting it makes sense to build massive factories to build ammo that is worse, and costs more.

The steel alloy is pretty much better in every single way it could be better. Cheaper, lighter, stronger, cooler to the touch, ect ect.

It does not. It costs more or less the same. The factory making them buys cases in bulk and does not care if they are new or reused. The skilled labor cost to load them is the same. The sunk cost of the machinery is the same. The cost of the powder and bullets is the same. You just buy it for more because the factory and the store you buy it from wants to earn money off you so they jack up the price.

In other words because capitalism.

[Pentaga Giudici]

Have you ever seen brand new casings be cheaper than one fired ones?

I've seen once-fired casings be up 50-66% cheaper many many times in my life. Once fired brass seems to have more cost in shipping almost, then in the brass itself.

Are you implying that every single company making brass is price-fixing or something?

[Purpelia]

Have you ever seen brand new casings be cheaper than one fired ones?

I've seen once-fired casings be up 50-66% cheaper many many times in my life. Once fired brass seems to have more cost in shipping almost, then in the brass itself.

Are you implying that every single company making brass is price-fixing or something?

I am saying that market value for consumers does not equate to manufacturing price. The prices you see in shops have little to nothing to do with the actual value of the item.

[Gallia-]

Even if cost isn't an issue you may want to conserve strategic materials where possible.

This is fair but IDK how much that went into the mindset of Russia or France.

I mean Russia did make MiG-25 from steel instead of titanium so IDK maybe they just really like steel. v:

Ir'npunk.

[Pentaga Giudici]

I was responding to Purpelia, who doesn't understand economy of scale.

There's nothing wrong with Shell Shock. Hybrid cases will be probably be increasingly popular in the future.

Not sure what people are going on about steel cases. Even if cost isn't an issue you may want to conserve strategic materials where possible.

Due to me fe-fes, this is now my favorite person here, unironically.

[Puzikas]

Theres a whole thing about Titanium in Russia which is rlly interesting but so absolutely S****y that I wont even begin to get into it

But basically Russian titanium welders and makers were the most capitalists of Capitalists in Soviet Russia, and successfully lobbied their own obsolescence.


Per the ammo issue hybrid cases are the future, Shell Shock is just a dumb name. The more hybrid cases the gooder because cheaper and lighter. Armies havent reloaded ammunition since like the 1870s anyways, civilians reload ammo, usually because of some deep desire to eek out every last drop of preformance from their rifle, because they shoot in volume sufficient that the 3 cents cost saving is sufficient to see returns on pure volume, they have This Old Gun in an esoteric caliber that isnt supported by domestic large manufactures and can only get 50 shells from an obscure brass maker for $7 per shell (Thank you CCBC for the box of .50-140 brass I appreciate you), or they have deep seated mental disorders and purchased the Bucket of Bibles to become post-war religious zelots who spread peace and love at the muzzle of a Ruger Mini-14 loaded with compressed black powder 5.56.

World militaries buy ammunition at such a ridiculous volume it boggles the mind. In 1982 the USSR took delivery of Ten billion rounds of small arms ammunition.

[Champagne Socialist Sharifistan]

Does giving knighthoods for military service encourage officers to perform well? I know that some British knighthoods are given for military officers but is this an effective system?

[Puzikas]

No the fear of being charged with gross incompetence and being forced to retire without a pension encourages officers to not preform poorly.
Knighthood only works if youre an anglophile and youre REALLY into the Queen or whatever. The USSR encouraged its officers to do well by putting them under fear of death and promises of a Datcha; Germany promised 40 Acres and a Mule or something, and the US promises a book deal, a motivational speaking tour with a guest spot on the Jocko podcast, and a bunch of badass angry face pictures with your quotes posted by people on facebook who look one errant gram of fat away from an MI.
And Japan did it through systemic cultural indoctrination and the threat of you having to preform Bukakke or whatever.

[Triplebaconation]

or they have deep seated mental disorders and purchased the Bucket of Bibles to become post-war religious zelots who spread peace and love at the muzzle of a Ruger Mini-14 loaded with compressed black powder 5.56.

some gorn up to no good round smithwick bridge

don't make fun of my mini-14

[Puzikas]

I couldnt think of a non-AR15 5.56 rifle that fudds in rural Nebraska (which is where 70% of the bucket-o-bibles ended up) would buy besides the Mini-14 sorry :<

[Austrasien]

Does giving knighthoods for military service encourage officers to perform well? I know that some British knighthoods are given for military officers but is this an effective system?

It's a decent enough way to motivate people to do what gets them the knighthood. But there will still be plenty of officers who try and game it by figuring out what exactly they have to do to improve their chances of getting a knighthood and doing exactly that.

If officers are knighted for being the first over the top (literally or metaphorically) they will tend to do that - whether it is desirable for officers to be leading from the front or not. If officers are knighted for doing well on major exercises they will devote as much time and energy (and their subordinates) to planning for those exercises. If they are knighted for maintaining an exceptionally high proportion of their tanks in a ready state they will be inclined to do that even if it might be achieved by say dramatically restricting the time crews can drive them.

If knighting is going to be a useful policy tool you would need to carefully consider what it would be granted for and what as a consequence officers will be inclined to do to get it. The incentive needs to be aligned with what is military useful for you.

[Kassaran]

I'm running an imperial state in another RP set in the mid-1900's and the knighthoods are moreover used as guarantees for contracts and Imperial military presence and subsidization of local infrastructure. Commoners and Nobles both are a part of the same military structure, but Noble Officers and Commoner Officers have different progression tracks, with Noble Officers acting more as staff and support officers while Commoners are used in more 'dangerous' and prestigious roles. This is done to give the Nobility an "easier" go of fulfilling their military service while not stepping on the toes of the prestige and prominence of those Commoners that achieve the Flag Ranks.

To put it more simply, Nobles can use their military rank to step over those higher in the peerage in military situations, so the heir to a Duchy who would technically be superior in the Peerage outside of the military would still be beholden to a higher rank Baron in a military situation. This does lead to some favoritism and otherwise notable instances of corruption, but as I've written it, shouldn't negatively affect military readiness, training, or outfitting. Any problems some might see coming from this line-up?

EDIT: Knighthoods are the means by which Commoners receive a 'Noble' title, thus affording them the right to seek audiences with the local nobility and marry into the Peerage if they so choose. This is generally seen as favorable as marriage into the Peerage enables easier access to state-controlled resources such as land, while also affording special tax privileges in return for developing or cultivating land by the instruction of their superiors in the peerage civilian-side. The Capital, Brasilia, is home to several Knightly Orders, built up more like guilds and veteran's organizations which don't actually have a military role, but do have a civilian role. These Orders act as charities and noble-run businesses which benefit from the aforementioned tax privileges and exemptions.

[Gallia-]

Theres a whole thing about Titanium in Russia which is rlly interesting but so absolutely S****y that I wont even begin to get into it

But basically Russian titanium welders and makers were the most capitalists of Capitalists in Soviet Russia, and successfully lobbied their own obsolescence.


Per the ammo issue hybrid cases are the future, Shell Shock is just a dumb name. The more hybrid cases the gooder because cheaper and lighter. Armies havent reloaded ammunition since like the 1870s anyways, civilians reload ammo, usually because of some deep desire to eek out every last drop of preformance from their rifle, because they shoot in volume sufficient that the 3 cents cost saving is sufficient to see returns on pure volume, they have This Old Gun in an esoteric caliber that isnt supported by domestic large manufactures and can only get 50 shells from an obscure brass maker for $7 per shell (Thank you CCBC for the box of .50-140 brass I appreciate you), or they have deep seated mental disorders and purchased the Bucket of Bibles to become post-war religious zelots who spread peace and love at the muzzle of a Ruger Mini-14 loaded with compressed black powder 5.56.

World militaries buy ammunition at such a ridiculous volume it boggles the mind. In 1982 the USSR took delivery of Ten billion rounds of small arms ammunition.

astounding

also yes thank you for confirming the ussr did produce "literally dozens of billions of rounds/year" gud sir

Knighthood only works if youre an anglophile and youre REALLY into the Queen or whatever.

'uv [p]'wincesst
'ate 'rection day

simple as

- dumblans post-nuclear holocaust because both spoken AND written, because literacy and enunciation fell out of fashion