Infantry Discussion Thread part 11: Gallas Razor edition.

[Pentaga Giudici]

I'm asking for 2030 though.

Europe won't matter in 2030 why bother?

Just make them wear anything they can find from the 1990s and some track suits or drab colored hoodies. That's what Ukraine and ISIS does.

In Ukarine, both sides just wear flecktarn and ISIS seems to wear either black, white, or US Woodland.

[Gallia-]

Ukrainians wear everything from DPM to multicam to flecktarn to ATACS to TTsKO to KLMK to olive drab, depending on what they can get their hands and who they are.

[The Akasha Colony]

People complain about brass costing too much, and steel being of too low quality all the time.

It's just a different steel alloy. Why does it seem like some kind of tremendous breakthrough?

The problem with steel quality is that if you're so poor that you can't afford brass, you probably can't afford to properly manufacture and QC your steel-cased rounds anyway. And that means regardless of whatever steel alloy you use, your rounds are going to suck. But brass isn't actually all that expensive in a military budget, which is why there hasn't been any significant interest in replacing it for cost reasons.

[Purpelia]

The Purpelian 5.5x42mm uses steel cases because of government nepotism favoring the steel industry.

[Gallia-]

Dumblans use plastic because they have a lot of CO2 from constant smog overhaze and a lot of saltwater from the tears they collect from angry refugee rights agencies to put into a nuclear powered hydrocarbon cycle.

This means more brass for the brass snap pocket closures and vests fasteners.

:brain:

[Pentaga Giudici]

People complain about brass costing too much, and steel being of too low quality all the time.

It's just a different steel alloy. Why does it seem like some kind of tremendous breakthrough?

The problem with steel quality is that if you're so poor that you can't afford brass, you probably can't afford to properly manufacture and QC your steel-cased rounds anyway. And that means regardless of whatever steel alloy you use, your rounds are going to suck. But brass isn't actually all that expensive in a military budget, which is why there hasn't been any significant interest in replacing it for cost reasons.

This alloy is still cheaper and so far doesn't appear to have any serious degradations in quality. It's a really good option right now for handloading and some high-pressure ammunition is coming out using these cases.

[Gallia-]

The highest pressure rifle cartridge ever made (besides some obscure giga magnums I guess) uses a plastic case...

Steel offers nothing really except you don't need to make brass, but copper is cheaper than tracer compounds so.

[Purpelia]

And it's not like you want super mega pressure rounds anyway. I mean, what are you going to do with those? Modern munitions are already quite good enough.

[Gallia-]

Stick to programming Edinburgh's HECToR or whatever you do.

[Pentaga Giudici]

And it's not like you want super mega pressure rounds anyway. I mean, what are you going to do with those? Modern munitions are already quite good enough.

Load very heavy subsonic bullets into 9x19mm? Loading heavier subsonic bullets in other pistol calibers?

Training ammo you can reload over and over and over again?

[Purpelia]

And it's not like you want super mega pressure rounds anyway. I mean, what are you going to do with those? Modern munitions are already quite good enough.

Load very heavy subsonic bullets into 9x19mm? Loading heavier subsonic bullets in other pistol calibers?

None of these require super advanced alloys. P++ rounds already exits and use regular cases just fine.

Training ammo you can reload over and over and over again?

Why bother? If you are a competent military you are going to be buying bullets by the million and having your own bullet factories. Unless you have some fetish for forcing soldiers to reload after range day as a punishment or something its cheaper to just order a fresh truck of them and ship off what ever is collected for recycling.

[Gallia-]

And it's not like you want super mega pressure rounds anyway. I mean, what are you going to do with those? Modern munitions are already quite good enough.

Load very heavy subsonic bullets into 9x19mm? Loading heavier subsonic bullets in other pistol calibers?

Are you Swedish or something? Why would you use pistol ammunition? That isn't getting through ESAPI any time soon.

Training ammo you can reload over and over and over again?

Lol just use blanks.

Ammunition is so cheap that no one has done this for many years as a matter of course though. The US Army gathers up brass to sell it to recyclers, not to reload it, much like a Serbian, Afghan, or Iraqi child might, so do American children gather spent casings to sell for pennies on the dollar. The most obvious reason you'd get rid of metal cased ammo is to shed weight and let you bring more ammo for a given mass (or more armor, water, whatever) instead of useless brass.

[Purpelia]

Although I could totally imagine having reloading duty be a punishment chore for bad recruits.

[Gallia-]

They wouldn't know how to operate a reloading press.

I think that's a 10 week AIT plus specialization.

Putting brass into boxes is punishment enough. Or just make them run laps or something.

Oh you lost the M203? Go run 800 laps I'm gonna take a smoke.

[Purpelia]

They wouldn't know how to operate a reloading press.

I think that's a 10 week AIT plus specialization.

Putting brass into boxes is punishment enough. Or just make them run laps or something.

I guess you are right. Way to take the fun out of it though.

[Pentaga Giudici]

Load very heavy subsonic bullets into 9x19mm? Loading heavier subsonic bullets in other pistol calibers?

None of these require super advanced alloys. P++ rounds already exits and use regular cases just fine.

Training ammo you can reload over and over and over again?

Why bother? If you are a competent military you are going to be buying bullets by the million and having your own bullet factories. Unless you have some fetish for forcing soldiers to reload after range day as a punishment or something its cheaper to just order a fresh truck of them and ship off what ever is collected for recycling.

I think it's weird how everyone is thinking about this from the position of like the US, which is the richest military in the world, and not like... IDK, any other nation.

Some of these nations, cough cough, had disposable STANAG magazines, but they never threw them away.

Load very heavy subsonic bullets into 9x19mm? Loading heavier subsonic bullets in other pistol calibers?

None of these require super advanced alloys. P++ rounds already exits and use regular cases just fine.

Training ammo you can reload over and over and over again?

Why bother? If you are a competent military you are going to be buying bullets by the million and having your own bullet factories. Unless you have some fetish for forcing soldiers to reload after range day as a punishment or something its cheaper to just order a fresh truck of them and ship off what ever is collected for recycling.

The only super heavy 9x19mm cartirdge I know, uses this alloy in their casings and swears if they used brass it would be unsafe.

[Gallia-]

That's because other nations literally cannot make anything lol. What other countries actually produce their own materiel in quantity? India? Pakistan? The PRC? Israel? None of these guys reload brass though, because they can make more brass than the United States, which doesn't reload brass (except as blanks, sometimes, maybe), let alone a post-industrial backwater like "Western Europe".

I guess if you put all of Europe together (Nammo, Radway Green, etc.) they might equal 2/3rd's of the USA's somewhat meager small arms ammo production capacity.

[Pentaga Giudici]

That's because other nations literally cannot make anything lol. What other countries actually produce their own materiel in quantity? India? Pakistan? The PRC? Israel? None of these guys reload brass though, because they can make more brass than the United States, which doesn't reload brass (except as blanks, sometimes, maybe), let alone a post-industrial backwater like "Western Europe".

I don't think China can afford Brass, they only so long ago stopped using corrosive primers, purely because they were trying to cut costs.

Russia doesn't issue brass either.

Switching from steel to this alloy wouldn't be much of a cost change, and it would really improve the quality of ammo made, assuming they put the same QC as the US (Which would still be a lot cheaper then brass, because US QC brass costs a good bit more).

[Gallia-]

That's because other nations literally cannot make anything lol. What other countries actually produce their own materiel in quantity? India? Pakistan? The PRC? Israel? None of these guys reload brass though, because they can make more brass than the United States, which doesn't reload brass (except as blanks, sometimes, maybe), let alone a post-industrial backwater like "Western Europe".

I don't think China can afford Brass, they only so long ago stopped using corrosive primers, purely because they were trying to cut costs.

Lol.

Russia doesn't issue brass either.

Neither does France but it has nothing to do with "cost".

Switching from steel to this alloy wouldn't be much of a cost change, and it would really improve the quality of ammo made, assuming they put the same QC as the US (Which would still be a lot cheaper then brass, because US QC brass costs a good bit more).

The case isn't a major source of cost of small arms ammo. It's literally the cheapest part of the round.

e: To elaborate a bit more: steel lets you have a slightly lighter cartridge (about 5-10%) than brass case. This is probably better than knocking off a literal penny or two to make a round that costs $0.12 instead of $0.14, but any decent bullet design will shoot that cost up again. ADVAP costs something like $5-10/round and it's going to be partly general purpose (defeating hard body armor). And that's once it gets established. Right now it's closer to $15/round I think but it's also prototypical and made arsenal style (small batch) in 3D printers. So with steel cased ammo you can carry a literal extra magazine in weight or so with 200-300 rounds. Wow.

I guess if you're the literal Soviet Union and producing literally a dozen or two billion-with-a-B rounds a year then you might be interested in knocking pennies down, but no one does that anymore, and they won't in the future.

[Purpelia]

I think it's weird how everyone is thinking about this from the position of like the US, which is the richest military in the world, and not like... IDK, any other nation.

No. Every single military ever including the poorest of the poor just buys millions of bullets in bulk. If you can't afford to do that than you are going to be overrun the moment a real war starts. Being able to mass produce ammo for cheap is literally a requirement for a functional military force this side of 1900.

Some of these nations, cough cough, had disposable STANAG magazines, but they never threw them away.

You mean like the united states?

The only super heavy 9x19mm cartirdge I know, uses this alloy in their casings and swears if they used brass it would be unsafe.

Thing is, you literally don't need such rounds as that role is better done by stuff like 9x39 or 9 P++ depending on if you want more energy or a big subsonic murder round.

[Cisairse]

Europe won't matter in 2030 why bother?

They mattered before?

[Gallia-]

Europe won't matter in 2030 why bother?

They mattered before?

Europe was a big deal in like 1900 I guess.

[Pentaga Giudici]

I don't think China can afford Brass, they only so long ago stopped using corrosive primers, purely because they were trying to cut costs.

Lol.

Russia doesn't issue brass either.

Neither does France but it has nothing to do with "cost".

Switching from steel to this alloy wouldn't be much of a cost change, and it would really improve the quality of ammo made, assuming they put the same QC as the US (Which would still be a lot cheaper then brass, because US QC brass costs a good bit more).

The case isn't a major source of cost of small arms ammo. It's literally the cheapest part of the round.

e: To elaborate a bit more: steel lets you have a slightly lighter cartridge (about 5-10%) than brass case. This is probably better than knocking off a literal penny or two to make a round that costs $0.12 instead of $0.14, but any decent bullet design will shoot that cost up again. ADVAP costs something like $5-10/round and it's going to be partly general purpose (defeating hard body armor). And that's once it gets established. Right now it's closer to $15/round I think but it's also prototypical and made arsenal style (small batch) in 3D printers. So with steel cased ammo you can carry a literal extra magazine in weight or so with 200-300 rounds. Wow.

I guess if you're the literal Soviet Union and producing literally a dozen or two billion-with-a-B rounds a year then you might be interested in knocking pennies down, but no one does that anymore, and they won't in the future.

In handloading, the casing is the most expensive part. According to all the math I've ever seen, the powder and bullet are less then 60% of the cost of the round. I've seen a lot of videos and charts, and done my own math where this is the case.

Brand new FMJ bullets, at least in 9x19mm, are a lot cheaper then brand new casings.

You know that reloaded ammo sold from large companies? It's sometimes cheaper then brand new steel ammo....

[Purpelia]

In handloading, the casing is the most expensive part. According to all the math I've ever seen, the powder and bullet are less then 60% of the cost of the round. I've seen a lot of videos and charts, and done my own math where this is the case.

No. In handloading skilled labor is the most expensive part. You have to teach people to do it and than have them spend hours doing it. Which is why nobody does it unless you really need ultra special hand loaded bullets because you think you are ultra special and unique and can do a better job than the factory or if there just isn't ammo out there to buy like for old black powder cartridges.

Brand new FMJ bullets, at least in 9x19mm, are a lot cheaper then brand new casings.

You know that reloaded ammo sold from large companies? It's sometimes cheaper then brand new steel ammo....

You need to look up the concept of economies of scale.

[Pentaga Giudici]

I think it's weird how everyone is thinking about this from the position of like the US, which is the richest military in the world, and not like... IDK, any other nation.

No. Every single military ever including the poorest of the poor just buys millions of bullets in bulk. If you can't afford to do that than you are going to be overrun the moment a real war starts. Being able to mass produce ammo for cheap is literally a requirement for a functional military force this side of 1900.

Some of these nations, cough cough, had disposable STANAG magazines, but they never threw them away.

You mean like the united states?

The only super heavy 9x19mm cartirdge I know, uses this alloy in their casings and swears if they used brass it would be unsafe.

Thing is, you literally don't need such rounds as that role is better done by stuff like 9x39 or 9 P++ depending on if you want more energy or a big subsonic murder round.

France, Spain, Comrade. France and Spain had way worse magazines, and they were recorded as being meant to be disposable by a lot more sources.

The Spanish magazines were so bad, there are recorded cases of people trying to trade or steal STANAGs made in other nations.

You can't fire 9x39mm out of a pistol or SMG, 9x19 +p+ is going to shred energy fast enough to change point of aim. Literally seen the latter happen, it's the reason in a lot of tests, .45 ACP shoots straighter at 100 yards out of a pistol.

In handloading, the casing is the most expensive part. According to all the math I've ever seen, the powder and bullet are less then 60% of the cost of the round. I've seen a lot of videos and charts, and done my own math where this is the case.

No. In handloading skilled labor is the most expensive part. You have to teach people to do it and than have them spend hours doing it. Which is why nobody does it unless you really need ultra special hand loaded bullets because you think you are ultra special and unique and can do a better job than the factory or if there just isn't ammo out there to buy like for old black powder cartridges.

Brand new FMJ bullets, at least in 9x19mm, are a lot cheaper then brand new casings.

You know that reloaded ammo sold from large companies? It's sometimes cheaper then brand new steel ammo....

You need to look up the concept of economies of scale.

There have been machines to do handloading for you for years. There are tons of videos about how they work, and lots of people just watch the machine do it's thing, in case something gets loaded upside down or such. According to the math I keep seeing, even if you run the thing on the slow, conservative scale, it's still a lot of ammo.

It won't be an issue at all if this was made at a factory, because production could be way faster, and considerably less people could be used.

"You know that reloaded ammo sold from large companies? It's sometimes cheaper then brand new steel ammo....[/quote]
You need to look up the concept of economies of scale."

Reloaded ammo using brass, from a large company, with brand new Western FMJs, is cheaper then brand new steel-cased ammo, made in Russia...Inside a massive factory.

The economy of scale for the Russian ammo is considerably higher, but sometimes their ammo costs more. Not always, but sometimes it happens.