Infantry Discussion Thread part 11: Gallas Razor edition.

[The Manticoran Empire]

(Image)

Until you fall in the water.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

(Image)

Until you fall in the water.

You appear to believe that cold water defeats Finns. You couldn't have been more wrong.

[Gallia-]

Big Finland Energy.

[Immoren]

Big Finland Energy.

I think I almost understand parts with actual words. lol

[Kazarogkai]

It wouldn't make any difference.

Chainmail is metal as fuck hence yes it would have. It would have been way cooler than little skirts from an aesthetic standpoint. And being more serious longer would have been somewhat helpful one issue the Zulus had at isaldwana was their short little spears which oddly enough gave the British regulars a slight range advantage. That and thin shields which were easily pierced. This alowed the British as a result to hold off the Poor bastards resulting in way worse losses in melee than they should have.

[Taihei Tengoku]

Don't take combat advice from Knife Guys

[Gallia-]

It wouldn't make any difference.

Chainmail is metal as fuck hence yes it would have. It would have been way cooler than little skirts from an aesthetic standpoint. And being more serious longer would have been somewhat helpful one issue the Zulus had at isaldwana was their short little spears which oddly enough gave the British regulars a slight range advantage. That and thin shields which were easily pierced. This alowed the British as a result to hold off the Poor bastards resulting in way worse losses in melee than they should have.

The Zulu would have lost just as bad even if they had 10 foot long spears.

The issue the Zulus was that they were incapable of opposing the British Empire lol.

They couldn't even last 6 months against a bunch of objectively poor, backwater troops, and their most notable victory was against troops who were widely considered (by the standards of the era) poorly trained, under-equipped, drunken louts whose fighting prowess was likely about as good as their reputation: nil. The Zulus didn't necessarily defeat the guys at Isandlwana so much as they opposed them in any significant capacity, to the point that even a minor Boer uprising would have thrown those guys into a tizzy and routed them into the sea, much less dispersed an unguarded and unprotected camp of drunks.

The other issue is that Chelmsford thought the Zulu were more Xhosa-like in that they would be actually intelligent and leverage their strength by becoming francs-tireurs, rather than be stupid and raise a massive, levied force of soldiers who fought in field formations. While this was a mistake at Isandlwana for Chelmsford, it was actually a tremendous benefit for the British because it was something they could extremely easily identify, encircle, and demolish quickly, decisively, and permanently. Which they did. Almost immediately. After all, the Xhosa fought for 100 years against the English and the Dutch. The Zulus fought for maybe 100 days.

Perhaps the real problem is that you think the Zulus have any military history or prowess worth emulating. But their entire military history is being shot by Martini-Henries for a couple weeks before surrendering.

[Triplebaconation]

I can only imagine a British commander's delight at seeing an army of Zulu hoplites trudge over a hill.

[Purpelia]

I guess they might all be technically NCOs but I'm not sure except for platoon commander.
They're basically tank in infantry's clothing so it's basically if you turned four tank platoon with two wings one commanded by lieutenant and one by platoon sergeant and they do that bounding overwatch, so you've heavy leadership in low levels. Also due to their capabilities it might be approriate.

I am not quite sure I understand. I mean, why does each MG need a babysitter basically?

Anti-large?

Dragons, monsters, demonic entities etc. If I were creating a magical combat unit I'd make sure to issue at least the NCO with a magical melee weapon to ensure anti large capabilities.

Medical section is for immediate treatment and medevac preparation. More specialized things are at larger levels, but of course girls have some training in what you mentioned here. At least enough for immediate self-defense.

You are making me want to lay out how I'd handle a magical unit now.

[The Manticoran Empire]

I can only imagine a British commander's delight at seeing an army of Zulu hoplites trudge over a hill.

It'll probably just be more dead zulus.

[Gallia-]

I can only imagine a British commander's delight at seeing an army of Zulu hoplites trudge over a hill.

Is 1mm bronze plate stronger than 1mm steel plate?

Find out soon(tm)

[Kazarogkai]

I can only imagine a British commander's delight at seeing an army of Zulu hoplites trudge over a hill.

Contrary to popular belief armour doesn't affect ones ability to run/speed much at all especially if none is placed on the legs. Assumimg said wearer has a mild degree of training. The effect on a soldier from armour isn't really speed but stamina. You will tire a bit quicker, and depending on the weather it might be more or less.

[Fordorsia]

I'd like to know how the Zulus would make all these mail shirts, let alone how they are supposed to provide an advantage. Not just in the tactical sense but strategically. From what I'm aware January is the hottest month for the region so all a mail shirt would do is further cook them on marches. Marches which outside of cavalry were supposed to be unmatched in speed and one of the Zulu's greatest assets.

I can only imagine a British commander's delight at seeing an army of Zulu hoplites trudge over a hill.

Contrary to popular belief armour doesn't affect ones ability to run/speed much at all especially if none ow places on the leg. Assumimg said wearer has a mild degree of training. The effect on a soldier from armour isn't really speed but stamina. You will tire a bit quicker, and depending on the weather it might be more or less.

I think that's just a response to Galla mentioning Zulus with 10 foot spears

[Gallia-]

I can only imagine a British commander's delight at seeing an army of Zulu hoplites trudge over a hill.

Contrary to popular belief armour doesn't affect ones ability to run/speed much at all especially if none is placed on the legs. Assumimg said wearer has a mild degree of training. The effect on a soldier from armour isn't really speed but stamina. You will tire a bit quicker, and depending on the weather it might be more or less.

Zulus don't believe in training. They have weed and charm necklaces.

[Triplebaconation]

I can only imagine a British commander's delight at seeing an army of Zulu hoplites trudge over a hill.

Contrary to popular belief armour doesn't affect ones ability to run/speed much at all especially if none is placed on the legs. Assumimg said wearer has a mild degree of training. The effect on a soldier from armour isn't really speed but stamina. You will tire a bit quicker, and depending on the weather it might be more or less.

A "big ole hoplite shield" certainly affects ones ability to run/speed.

I'd like to know how the Zulus would make all these mail shirts

It's a little like asking "what if the Zulus had a tank division at Rorke's Drift?" That's about as likely as them making mail or even a hoplon.

[Fordorsia]

An aspis will slow you down when you're holding it in front of you. But when all you're doing is running with it at your side all it will do is stop you doing a full sprint, unless you're in a group trying to stay in formation so naturally you won't be going as fast.

[Triplebaconation]

Does running into an infantry square by yourself with a giant shield at your side seem like a reasonable thing to do?

Perhaps this was difficult for people to grasp: The point is if you're equipped like ancient heavy infantry you'll move and fight like ancient heavy infantry. One follows the other.

[Kazarogkai]

I'd like to know how the Zulus would make all these mail shirts, let alone how they are supposed to provide an advantage. Not just in the tactical sense but strategically. From what I'm aware January is the hottest month for the region so all a mail shirt would do is further cook them on marches. Marches which outside of cavalry were supposed to be unmatched in speed and one of the Zulu's greatest assets.

Contrary to popular belief armour doesn't affect ones ability to run/speed much at all especially if none ow places on the leg. Assuming said wearer has a mild degree of training. The effect on a soldier from armour isn't really speed but stamina. You will tire a bit quicker, and depending on the weather it might be more or less.

I think that's just a response to Galla mentioning Zulus with 10 foot spears

The term Zulu was meant in a figurative rather than literal sense. I doubt the Zulu's even had wheels let alone could make Chain mail. Though to be fair chain mail is pretty cheap and simple to make comparatively. They had the ability to make basic plates of metal, those big ole spear heads, hence making metal wire would not have been beyond them technology wise. Just because one did not perform an action doesn't mean one doesn't have the tools to do so.

Where the hell did I ever mention 10 foot spears, I'm pretty sure I said 7 foot spears(the rough upper limit for one handed spears), I'm confused?

going from there, the Chain Mail shirts are in part referencing the upper limit of local armour used within the Sub-Saharan region. It is known that the Ethiopians and at the very least Somali both made extensive use of Chain mail in the various wars they fought with one another during the late medieval and early modern period. Considering their tech level arguably both could have if they really wanted. Their use of plated mail being clear proof they could make plates. The problem last I checked was due to the climate. Full plate even demi plate would have been too hot to wear for any significant length of time and would have had a tremendous effect on their stamina and durability leading to your aforementioned "cooking effect". Not pleasant at all. Hence chain mail was preferred and continued to be used deep into the era due to chain mail, especially the stuff used in the area, was a lot more breathable and hence would not have cooked the wearer in such a substantial manner compared to plate mail.

This is later Sudanese Armour but it gets the point across. As one could see airflow would have been pretty good meaning they would have remained pretty cool lessening the usual effect that such armour would have on ones stamina and increasing comfort:



Also again armour doesn't technically effect speed significantly, their are numerous modern tests showing the ability of men even in full plate being able to run rather easily. This would be even more the case with armour that doesn't significantly cover the legs. The effect is again primarily in stamina. Said Zulu assuming they were trained to wear the stuff while marching would have run about as fast, the difference would be how long they could run. Assuming the legends are true and they could get somewhere in the realm of 40-50 miles per day, though I bet it was only around 30-40 outside of forced marches, with armour they probably would have been going about half that at around 25 miles theoretically though averaging around 15-20 on a usual day. Still pretty good considering the Romans were only marching at around 10-15 miles a day on average.

[Gallia-]

Pictured: Zulu Warrior c. 1878.

That looks about 10 feet to me.

He would win the push of pike. Assuming he ever gets there alive.

[Kazarogkai]

(Image)

Pictured: Zulu Warrior c. 1878.

That looks about 10 feet to me.

He would win the push of pike. Assuming he ever gets there alive.

Assuming that guy is around 5'0-5'3 or so that looks to me to only be around 7-8 feet honestly.

[Gallia-]

nah he's at least 7 foot tall they made 'em bigger back then

[Triplebaconation]

This is later Sudanese Armour but it gets the point across. As one could see airflow would have been pretty good meaning they would have remained pretty cool lessening the usual effect that such armour would have on ones stamina and increasing comfort:

(Image)

Airflow is pretty good through a quilted jibbah?

You're not walking 20 miles a day in a quilt when it's 90 degrees and 80% humidity lol.

(This is considerably faster than the average Zulu marching speed anyway).

Padding is another technology the Zulu lacked, by the way. Mail isn't just making rings out of wire (I guess they could pull iron through a hole in a rock), it requires a complex technological and cultural infrastructure. Possessing these would make the South African tribes pretty much unrecognizable.

Your question is basically "What if these people were different in almost every conceivable way?"

[Kazarogkai]

nah he's at least 7 foot tall they made 'em bigger back then

Bro he's greek their short as hell.. Now if he was depicting a Nilo-Saharan then you might have a point.

[Kazarogkai]

This is later Sudanese Armour but it gets the point across. As one could see airflow would have been pretty good meaning they would have remained pretty cool lessening the usual effect that such armour would have on ones stamina and increasing comfort:

(Image)

Airflow is pretty good through a quilted jibbah?

You're not walking 20 miles a day in a quilt when it's 90 degrees and 80% humidity lol.

(This is considerably faster than the average Zulu marching speed anyway).

Padding is another technology the Zulu lacked, by the way. Mail isn't just making rings out of wire (I guess they could pull iron through a hole in a rock), it requires a complex technological and cultural infrastructure. Possessing these would make the South African tribes pretty much unrecognizable.

Your question is basically "What if these people were different in almost every conceivable way?"

Compared to full plate, do yo not see how big those holes are? Also last I checked they didn't usually wear quilted armour underneath their chain mail, it would again be way too hot. What clothing they did wear was either really thin wool or probably cotton and in rare cases linen which were designed to be worn in hot climates such as where the Sudanese would be running around in.

In terms of said walking speed I'm basing that on oft repeated statistics nothing more. The usual legend is they could march 50 in a day but again I doubt it was more than ~30 maybe 40 on a good day.

Finally Bitch please I've seen children make that crap. Complex my ass. Were not talking good quality European style riveted mail too, the stuff they find around these parts is basically all butted which is orders of a magnitude easier albeit less effective.

[Gallia-]

nah he's at least 7 foot tall they made 'em bigger back then

Bro he's greek their short as hell.. Now if he was depicting a Nilo-Saharan then you might have a point.

he's actually afro-hyperborean so he really do be like that

Compared to full plate, do yo not see how big those holes are?

yeah theyre big enough to let a bullet through lol