Infantry Discussion Thread part 11: Gallas Razor edition.

[Onekawa-Nukanor]

So I’ve tinkered a bit with my Airborne/Light Infantry Section and was wondering how this is? I’ve been tinkering with 4-man fire teams but still want to have 10 strong section as a hard limit.
- Fire Team A
- Section Leader: Assault Rifle
- Riflemen: Assault Rifle, One Shot Anti-Tank Launcher (M72 LAW-esque)
- Grenadier: Assault Rifle w/ Underslung GL
- Riflemen: Assault Rifle

- Fire Team B
- 2iC/Section: Assault Rifle
- Light Machine Gunner: Light Machine Gun (M249 style MG)
- Grenadier: Assault Rifle w/ Underslung GL
- Riflemen: Assault Rifle

- Fire Team C
- Heavy Weapon Operator: General Purpose Machine Gun
- Marksman: Designated Marksman Rifle

The idea is that fire team C lays down the suppressive firepower whilst A and B teams flank the position and assault it. But I don’t know if just a 2-man team is sufficent to lay down enough firepower for A and B to successfully assault a position.

[Taihei Tengoku]

The GPMG needs at least two people, ideally three.

[The Dolphin Isles]

I'd give the second rifleman in Fireteam A an anti-tank weapon as well. Additionally, I'd specify that the rifleman in Fireteam B is an ammo bearer and/or assistant auto rifleman. As said before, a heavy machine gun really needs an assistant to the gunner to carry ammo. I would say that you need at least a 2-man team if it's 7.62 mm, but you probably need a 3-man team if it's a gun with a higher caliber. This is especially important since Fireteam C is meant to be the fire support base; laying down suppressing fire goes through a lot of ammo.

Your squad tactics seem similar to the French Army. They have two fireteams of three men each. Team A just has rifles and light AT. Team B is the fire support team with an autorifleman and they serve as the firebase while the other team is the maneuver team. You have to be careful with this layout though because it lacks some granularity. For example, if your maneuver team takes a bunch of losses, you are just left with an overburdened fire support team. Additionally, if you need to defend an area, you can't really split the fireteams up to support different areas.

[Crookfur]

As said fire team C would just be the gimpy gunner and his ammo and spare barrel bitch.
If lawalikes are all you want to bother with then there isn't a huge need for a dedicated at role, just strap a law on the pack of everyone who has just a rifle. This would allow you to move the DMR to team A.

[Gallia-]

real bros carry 2 laws

[Purpelia]

Just how (in)effective are light AT weapons like the LAW these days anyway? I can't imagine them taking out a modern tank at a reasonable range. So is it perhaps time to abandon them in favor of more utilitarian launchers like the CG or RPG-7 / RPO that are mostly going to be used to blow up other stuff and can also shoot tanks in a pinch? I am basically talking about issuing a RPG or CG per squad and replacing all the LAWs with RPO or other HE weapons.

[Gallia-]

They can kill bimpus and machine gun teams hiding in houses.

[Purpelia]

They can kill bimpus and machine gun teams hiding in houses.

Yes, but HE throwers or things like the RPO (a thermobaric LAW lookalike) do that much better than a shaped charge. My point is that if your shaped charge can't kill armor and there is something that kills everything else better why not use that other thing? Is there a case for retaining the shaped charge even if it compromises its ability to kill everything else that I am missing?

[The Akasha Colony]

They can kill bimpus and machine gun teams hiding in houses.

Yes, but HE throwers or things like the RPO (a thermobaric LAW lookalike) do that much better than a shaped charge. My point is that if your shaped charge can't kill armor and there is something that kills everything else better why not use that other thing? Is there a case for retaining the shaped charge even if it compromises its ability to kill everything else that I am missing?

Because there are still lots of medium-armor vehicles out there. Just look at how many non-uparmored M113s, BTRs, BMPs, BMDs, Humvees, etc. are running around the battlefield these days.

And if you really just need to focus on soft targets, M72 has several HE and HE-Frag variants.

Weapons like CG aren't really replacements for M72 because they're crew-served weapons. You have to dedicate at least two people to them to use them effectively. Whereas M72 is small and light enough that you can give one or two to each rifleman to give them more capability while not overburdening them and preventing them from acting as a mobile asset.

RPO isn't really a replacement either; modern M72 variants weigh just 3.6 kg. RPO is 11 kg.

[Gallia-]

They can kill bimpus and machine gun teams hiding in houses.

Yes, but HE throwers or things like the RPO (a thermobaric LAW lookalike) do that much better than a shaped charge. My point is that if your shaped charge can't kill armor and there is something that kills everything else better why not use that other thing? Is there a case for retaining the shaped charge even if it compromises its ability to kill everything else that I am missing?

RPO is like twice as bulky and 3x or 4x heavier than LAW.

You might be able to carry one with some minor annoyance.

M72 LAW can easily pack one or two rifleman and possibly machinegunner. It can also fire thermobaric rounds I guess. I'm not sure what LASM actually is, it might just be a bulk HE round, or a very shallow hollow charge, or a thermobaric.

An M72 LAW can reliably kill a BMP-3 or something though.

[Taihei Tengoku]

You should not even specify LAWs in the t/o and just make it part of the ammo draw like grenades :o

[Gallia-]

<that picture of the Marines with like two dozen LAW tubes around them>

[Taihei Tengoku]

rah

[The Manticoran Empire]

Stryker Dragoon Vehicle Squad (2 Crew + 9 Dismounts)

Vehicle Crew in M1296 Stryker Dragoon
- Driver with M8 Compact Rifle
- Vehicle Commander/Weapons Operator with M8 Compact Rifle

Dismount Section
- Command Team
-- Squad Leader with M8 Carbine
-- Radio Operator with M8 Carbine
-- Combat Life Saver with M8 Carbine
- Support Team
-- Gunner with M8 Squad Support Weapon
-- Ammo Bearer with M8 Carbine
-- Marksman with M8 Marksman Rifle
- Maneuver Team
-- Team Leader with M8 Carbine
-- Grenadier with M8 Carbine/M320 Grenade Launcher
-- Rifleman with M8 Carbine

[Kazarogkai]

Do you really need a dedicated combat medic at the Section level(I'm presuming that is what the "Combat life saver" level?); seems a bit superfluous. I'd much rather have an extra gunner or something and leave that job to 1-2 guys in the platoon HQ if that. At the moment I just put my medics at the company level in addition to a ambulance team forming the Company Medical Team(6 men). Ultimately leaving it up to the Company Commander's discretion to allocate them down if need be.

[Arkandros]

Do you really need a dedicated combat medic at the Section level(I'm presuming that is what the "Combat life saver" level?); seems a bit superfluous. I'd much rather have an extra gunner or something and leave that job to 1-2 guys in the platoon HQ if that. At the moment I just put my medics at the company level in addition to a ambulance team forming the Company Medical Team(6 men). Ultimately leaving it up to the Company Commander's discretion to allocate them down if need be.

The section combat lifesaver isn't really a combat medic so much as a well trained first aid asset. Combat lifesavers exist to provide stabilization for trauma that can't be fixed by your average infantryman while the actual combat medic is otherwise occupied or en route. They're generally trained to a lower standard than medics as an auxiliary duty to their primary MOS, and as a result receive training only for the most common types of trauma and are prohibited from performing certain procedures.

[Kazarogkai]

Do you really need a dedicated combat medic at the Section level(I'm presuming that is what the "Combat life saver" level?); seems a bit superfluous. I'd much rather have an extra gunner or something and leave that job to 1-2 guys in the platoon HQ if that. At the moment I just put my medics at the company level in addition to a ambulance team forming the Company Medical Team(6 men). Ultimately leaving it up to the Company Commander's discretion to allocate them down if need be.

The section combat lifesaver isn't really a combat medic so much as a well trained first aid asset. Combat lifesavers exist to provide stabilization for trauma that can't be fixed by your average infantryman while the actual combat medic is otherwise occupied or en route. They're generally trained to a lower standard than medics as an auxiliary duty to their primary MOS, and as a result receive training only for the most common types of trauma and are prohibited from performing certain procedures.

Still probably something I wouldn't bother leaving below platoon level at best delegating downward if necessary but that's just me. I get your point. Still rather have an actual combat specialist than a med at section level.

[Gallia-]

Do you really need a dedicated combat medic at the Section level(I'm presuming that is what the "Combat life saver" level?); seems a bit superfluous. I'd much rather have an extra gunner or something and leave that job to 1-2 guys in the platoon HQ if that. At the moment I just put my medics at the company level in addition to a ambulance team forming the Company Medical Team(6 men). Ultimately leaving it up to the Company Commander's discretion to allocate them down if need be.

The section combat lifesaver isn't really a combat medic so much as a well trained first aid asset. Combat lifesavers exist to provide stabilization for trauma that can't be fixed by your average infantryman while the actual combat medic is otherwise occupied or en route. They're generally trained to a lower standard than medics as an auxiliary duty to their primary MOS, and as a result receive training only for the most common types of trauma and are prohibited from performing certain procedures.

A CLS is literally just an infantryman who's been trained to apply an Asherman seal, an OPA, run an IV, and move someone with spinal injuries.

You could train every soldier to that standard if you had enough time slotted in basic. Observe:

(...) Week 2: Trainees are introduced to military martial arts, and practice their knowledge in gymnasium using hand-to-hand and armed techniques. Trainees practice throws, grapples, and using pugil sticks. Introduction and qualification in battlefield first aid; trainees learn CPR, how to use an NPA, and how to apply the Asherman chest seal. Trainees practice land navigation, map reading, and complete the compass course at the end of the week. (...)

If you cut out firearms training from basic you suddenly find enough time to do a 30 minute Scantron test after a couple days of lecture. Since Dumbla has The Ultimate IFAK (Part 2) with an Asherman seal, syrettes, and a bunch of radiological medication in it, they probably need that training. I suspect that if you go to combat arms you end up getting more in-depth refreshers periodically.

Unfortunately, some people think learning to move an injured person is a waste of time or something.

At least they're still getting it, provided that first duty roster has the time and money to spare, which an infantry unit or something probably does.

e: Also they learn how to apply those little plastic splints. So yeah, no biggie stuff. The most powerful thing is the IV.

Since Dumblan IFAKs have NAAKs and syrettes with morphine, I suppose that having troops trained to "basically CLS" level is fine since it's only a couple days and they'll pretty much need it because their IFAKs are heckin chonkers designed to deal with penetrating injuries. The only thing it lacks is the Tylenol and Sudafed tablets, and the IV bags + drips, because that shit is bulky, and anyone can get it from a PX or sth. Notionally I've considered a SAM splint hanging off the bottom or something, a combat tourniquet, an Asherman seal or something similar, an eyeshield, a compression bandage, a gauze bandage, space for a QuickClot-type bandage, medical tape, an NPA, a NAAK autoinjector, a nicomorphine autoinjector, KI tablets, PB tablets, some antibiotics and anti-emitics, and a marker and casualty card for the medic to read. So IFAK 2 + the AI-2 + a chest seal for bullet injury.

Maybe someone gets taken aside and learned the dark arts of making a pneumothorax valve from a credit card and triangular bandage, and they can clip a pair of trauma shears to their IFAK with a carabiner or something.

[Onekawa-Nukanor]

So if I went to a 12-man section by just throwing two more guys in fire team C to assist the MGer that would work out well? Whilst throwing LAWs at anyone unburned by additional/heavy equipment?

I know I said 10 was a bit of a firm limit but since this is an airborne infantry section it probably isn’t to much of a hassle to go to 12.

[Spirit of Hope]

So if I went to a 12-man section by just throwing two more guys in fire team C to assist the MGer that would work out well? Whilst throwing LAWs at anyone unburned by additional/heavy equipment?

I know I said 10 was a bit of a firm limit but since this is an airborne infantry section it probably isn’t to much of a hassle to go to 12.

There shouldn't be any issues throwing two more guys in to fire team C to carry ammo and a tripod for the MG.

[Gallia-]

assistant w/ barrels + ammo, tripod, gunner, and an NCO for directing the gun

if youre really hard up you can have a 5th man for moving the ammo

[The Manticoran Empire]

Do you really need a dedicated combat medic at the Section level(I'm presuming that is what the "Combat life saver" level?); seems a bit superfluous. I'd much rather have an extra gunner or something and leave that job to 1-2 guys in the platoon HQ if that. At the moment I just put my medics at the company level in addition to a ambulance team forming the Company Medical Team(6 men). Ultimately leaving it up to the Company Commander's discretion to allocate them down if need be.

Actually yes. The first minutes after injury are critical and medics are typically rare birds. Since it is likely to be a good while before a proper medic is available for the squad to pass the wounded on to, it is of vital importance to have at least one member of the squad that can provide life saving treatment on the spot, stopping the bleeding, checking vitals, and getting the casualty ready to be moved to a CCP or other such field first aid station.

[The Hell Legions]

Do you really need a dedicated combat medic at the Section level(I'm presuming that is what the "Combat life saver" level?); seems a bit superfluous. I'd much rather have an extra gunner or something and leave that job to 1-2 guys in the platoon HQ if that. At the moment I just put my medics at the company level in addition to a ambulance team forming the Company Medical Team(6 men). Ultimately leaving it up to the Company Commander's discretion to allocate them down if need be.

Actually yes. The first minutes after injury are critical and medics are typically rare birds. Since it is likely to be a good while before a proper medic is available for the squad to pass the wounded on to, it is of vital importance to have at least one member of the squad that can provide life saving treatment on the spot, stopping the bleeding, checking vitals, and getting the casualty ready to be moved to a CCP or other such field first aid station.

An extra member of the squad who can provide life saving treatment... you mean like a medic?

Another potential solution would be to have basic first aid as a part of basic training for all personnel - more specialized, professional training could be provided to those who have that as an MoS, but having it so that all personnel, combat or otherwise are able to provide at least basic aid at a moments notice could potentially save a lot of lives - in the end, such training would essentially pay for itself as it would mean losing less personnel, thus not losing the money spent on training them, providing education to them, etc.

[The Manticoran Empire]

Actually yes. The first minutes after injury are critical and medics are typically rare birds. Since it is likely to be a good while before a proper medic is available for the squad to pass the wounded on to, it is of vital importance to have at least one member of the squad that can provide life saving treatment on the spot, stopping the bleeding, checking vitals, and getting the casualty ready to be moved to a CCP or other such field first aid station.

An extra member of the squad who can provide life saving treatment... you mean like a medic?

Another potential solution would be to have basic first aid as a part of basic training for all personnel - more specialized, professional training could be provided to those who have that as an MoS, but having it so that all personnel, combat or otherwise are able to provide at least basic aid at a moments notice could potentially save a lot of lives - in the end, such training would essentially pay for itself as it would mean losing less personnel, thus not losing the money spent on training them, providing education to them, etc.

...that is precisely what Combat Life Saver is. It is an actual, legitimate, real thing that exists in the US Army. The goal of the Army's Combat Lifesaver Course is to have one Combat Life Saver for every 10 man squad. The proper 68W medics are found at platoon and above. Since a platoon can often be found operating in individual squads or fireteams, the medic is insufficient, thus Combat Lifesavers.

[Purpelia]

You know how most if not all MG's during WW2 and the like that were mounted on tanks had an option to be removable for infantry use complete with stocks, bipods and various other addons. Am I the only one that thinks this is somewhat pointless? I mean, I can't imagine people jumping out of a burning tank taking the time to pull out the MG and pick up all the accessories and assemble the gun instead of just running away. And I can't really imagine them dismounting the gun in any other scenario either because I'd rather be inside the giant metal box shooting out than outside of it.

So like what am I missing here? Or was that just one of those odd WW2 ideas everyone had and thought was good but wasn't?