Infantry Discussion Thread part 11: Gallas Razor edition.

[The united American-Isreali empire]

The only good 6 mm's are 6.5 mm Arisaka and 6.5 mm Swede. New 6 mm's are terminally hampered by having to fit in a 5.56 compliant magazine.
If you are surviving a nuclear war you haven't got time to minmax the thing you will expend tens of thousands of in peacetime training. Rifle is fine.

1. This isn't really a major drawback, as many of the cartridges were just fine despite fitting in 5.56mm guns. You can still get improved performance, like higher power, better accuracy and range. 2. The 6.5mm Creedmoor which has actually been adopted by the Special forces and the 6.8mm which is currently testing are not actually designed to fit in 5.56mm magazines and 3. the Ariska is kind of shit, using extremely old gunpowder and not being designed to cycle in things like machine guns. The 6.5mm Swede is marginally better. The 6.5mm grendel actually has roughly the same ballistics as the 6.5mm Ariska, in a much smaller and lighter weight package, being about 30% heavier than a 5.56mm, while the Ariska uses a far larger, 50mm vs. 39mm length case, and being slightly larger around.

There's no real reason to believe that it being designed to fit in a 5.56mm magazine well really hampers performance all that much. The 6.5mm Grendel for example produces 2600 joules with an 8 gram bullet at roughly 820 m/s, and the 6.8mm remington 2700 joules with a 7.45 gram bullet at around 850 m/s. Neither of these cartridges are really bad, usually having around 1 MOA of accuracy, and higher ballistic coefficients, or a G1 BC of .35 for the 6.8mm and .5 or higher for the 6.5mm, compared to about .2 for the 5.56mm. There's no real drawback in performance, so it's not really automatically a negative. Plenty of cartridges were designed to fit in other weapons or even other cartridge cases (I.E. the .270 for the .30-06 and so on), and they were quite successful. In fact the .30-06 actually came from the .30-03, and the .30-03 from the .30-40 Krag, with the .308 coming from the .30-06 albeit it with a dramatically changed case. The idea that a cartridge based on an existing cartridge would automatically end up doing poorly is a bit strange, or that having to fit inside of another magazine well would somehow make it perform dramatically worse. This just isn't the case, and it's just a good idea to make it easily compatible with existing rifles, rather than designing something brand new from the ground up. The 5.56mm itself came from the .223, which came from the .222, which was actually slightly different, mainly in that it was weaker. The idea that this inhibits the cartridge in anyway has sort of been disproven by the test of time. I don't think it's really a good idea to discount a cartridge just because it designed to have similiar dimensions or be able to fire in similarly dimensioned guns as, another cartridge. In fact most of the great cartridges were all derivatives of something else. The .308 itself was a cut down .30-06 case for example, which continues the tradition down the line of rounds based on other rounds. All of these of course did fine.

i do like those rounds, better then 5.56 from what ive read.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

i do like those rounds, better then 5.56 from what ive read.

It's only better when you haven't got LGI Mle F1 or whatever it is now and is too pussy to close with and destroy the enemy, preferring to hunker up in FOB's while being sniped at by goatherders with Martini-Enfields, ZU-23's and Soviet 82 mm mortars on the occasion.

[Gallia-]

the future is the laser guided 25/35mm martini henry

[The united American-Isreali empire]

i do like those rounds, better then 5.56 from what ive read.

It's only better when you haven't got LGI Mle F1 or whatever it is now and is too pussy to close with and destroy the enemy, preferring to hunker up in FOB's while being sniped at by goatherders with Martini-Enfields, ZU-23's and Soviet 82 mm mortars on the occasion.

well i like 303s for service use or 7.62, but for "intermedate" use its better then what exists and not the 7.62x39s weight.

[Gallia-]

rimmed assault rifle cartridge maximum chad

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

It's only better when you haven't got LGI Mle F1 or whatever it is now and is too pussy to close with and destroy the enemy, preferring to hunker up in FOB's while being sniped at by goatherders with Martini-Enfields, ZU-23's and Soviet 82 mm mortars on the occasion.

well i like 303s for service use or 7.62, but for "intermedate" use its better then what exists and not the 7.62x39s weight.

What is lacking of the 7.62x39 in your opinion? Does your pussy infantrymen grow so fat that they cannot even lift the iphone they plug away at 24/7? Are your infantrymen physically weaker than the Talibans who go around with AK's, Gewehr 98's, Lee Enfields and 82 mm mortars and beats the Americans into hiding in their FOB's?

[Gallia-]

calm down ostunyan~ umu

[The united American-Isreali empire]

well i like 303s for service use or 7.62, but for "intermedate" use its better then what exists and not the 7.62x39s weight.

What is lacking of the 7.62x39 in your opinion? Does your pussy infantrymen grow so fat that they cannot even lift the iphone they plug away at 24/7? Are your infantrymen physically weaker than the Talibans who go around with AK's, Gewehr 98's, Lee Enfields and 82 mm mortars and beats the Americans into hiding in their FOB's?

im not knocking the 7.62x39, but the rounds mentioned are very good, for weight meaning you may carry more for the same power. calm down geeze. i like all guns.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

What is lacking of the 7.62x39 in your opinion? Does your pussy infantrymen grow so fat that they cannot even lift the iphone they plug away at 24/7? Are your infantrymen physically weaker than the Talibans who go around with AK's, Gewehr 98's, Lee Enfields and 82 mm mortars and beats the Americans into hiding in their FOB's?

im not knocking the 7.62x39, but the rounds mentioned are very good, for weight meaning you may carry more for the same power. calm down geeze. i like all guns.

6.5 grendel weighs the same as 7.62.
How absolutely confident are you in an infantryman's ability to hit things at 600 meters in a combat situation?

[Gallia-]

ostles go to sleep #UmU#

[The united American-Isreali empire]

im not knocking the 7.62x39, but the rounds mentioned are very good, for weight meaning you may carry more for the same power. calm down geeze. i like all guns.

6.5 grendel weighs the same as 7.62.
How absolutely confident are you in an infantryman's ability to hit things at 600 meters in a combat situation?

depends on the skills of the infantry in question.

[Spirit of Hope]

6.5 grendel weighs the same as 7.62.
How absolutely confident are you in an infantryman's ability to hit things at 600 meters in a combat situation?

depends on the skills of the infantry in question.

Basically no infantry soldier is going to be reliably engaging enemy infantry at 600 meters. First most infantry combat takes place at less than 300 meters, 600 meter engagements are rare. At 600 meters even a well trained infantry shooter isn't going to be reliably hitting man sized still target under ideal conditions, and in real combat your enemy is rarely going to be standing in the open and sitting still not to mention the stress of battle and other factors.

[The Manticoran Empire]

6.5 grendel weighs the same as 7.62.
How absolutely confident are you in an infantryman's ability to hit things at 600 meters in a combat situation?

depends on the skills of the infantry in question.

Maybe 1% of your infantry will be reliably hitting targets at 600 meters. A man sized target at that range is about the same size as your thumb when your arm is fully extended. It's so small that the front sight post on most weapons will obscure it. Furthermore, identification of targets will be almost impossible at that range without magnified optics, which come with a bit of reduced usability in close quarters environments. Most combat will be happening at 300 meters or less. So I would worry less about hitting a 600 meter target with a rifle and more about ensuring that the infantry are capable of reliably engaging targets at typical ranges of about 300 to 400 meters.

[Taihei Tengoku]

well i like 303s for service use or 7.62, but for "intermedate" use its better then what exists and not the 7.62x39s weight.

What is lacking of the 7.62x39 in your opinion? Does your pussy infantrymen grow so fat that they cannot even lift the iphone they plug away at 24/7? Are your infantrymen physically weaker than the Talibans who go around with AK's, Gewehr 98's, Lee Enfields and 82 mm mortars and beats the Americans into hiding in their FOB's?

The Americans also beat the TB in every gunfight they get into, so much that the TB just resorted to paying ANA and burying IEDs. Let's not confuse the operational and tactical

[Kassaran]

Right, American Infantrymen hide in their FOB's because they can't face the Taliban in open combat. Has nothing to do with being an occupational force occupying an area and thus taking contact by those who would rather them not being there. Very salient take there ABH.

[Purpelia]

Right, American Infantrymen hide in their FOB's because they can't face the Taliban in open combat. Has nothing to do with being an occupational force occupying an area and thus taking contact by those who would rather them not being there. Very salient take there ABH.

If by occupation you mean grab a tiny bit of land and hold that sure. But that's no way to win. The way to win is to go out there and exterminate the opposition and the population that supports them until they are no more.

[Ormata]

Right, American Infantrymen hide in their FOB's because they can't face the Taliban in open combat. Has nothing to do with being an occupational force occupying an area and thus taking contact by those who would rather them not being there. Very salient take there ABH.

If by occupation you mean grab a tiny bit of land and hold that sure. But that's no way to win. The way to win is to go out there and exterminate the opposition and the population that supports them until they are no more.

Last I recall genocide's not amazing for the country, soldiers' mental health, political stability, worldwide stability, etc.

[Purpelia]

If by occupation you mean grab a tiny bit of land and hold that sure. But that's no way to win. The way to win is to go out there and exterminate the opposition and the population that supports them until they are no more.

Last I recall genocide's not amazing for the country, soldiers' mental health, political stability, worldwide stability, etc.

On the contrary. Genocide is the one and only way to properly win a war. And it is one that has been performed historically by all major empires many times with no ill effects. You just need to remember that the word is far broader in meaning than just shooting people to death or gassing them and involves such things as reeducation, forceful assimilation into a culture you like etc.

[Danternoust]

c o n s u m e

My troops use lithium perchlorate for smokeless heaters.

It burns at 500 centigrade though.

[The united American-Isreali empire]

depends on the skills of the infantry in question.

Maybe 1% of your infantry will be reliably hitting targets at 600 meters. A man sized target at that range is about the same size as your thumb when your arm is fully extended. It's so small that the front sight post on most weapons will obscure it. Furthermore, identification of targets will be almost impossible at that range without magnified optics, which come with a bit of reduced usability in close quarters environments. Most combat will be happening at 300 meters or less. So I would worry less about hitting a 600 meter target with a rifle and more about ensuring that the infantry are capable of reliably engaging targets at typical ranges of about 300 to 400 meters.

I agree. I said I prefer. I am realistic to combat condations. I know its a long range. I just prefer to give troops the most powerful rounds. But 6.5 or 6.8 work better for combat.

[Gallia-]

c o n s u m e

My troops use lithium perchlorate for smokeless heaters.

It burns at 500 centigrade though.

galla uses a ww2 camp stove

instead of wet alcohol or gel it uses dry alcohol tho

the dry alcohol comes in the rations (2 per meal i suppose, for hot tea/coffee) but presumably you can carry extra hexamine in the mess kit

if you lose the esbit stove you eat the food cold i guess

Maybe 1% of your infantry will be reliably hitting targets at 600 meters. A man sized target at that range is about the same size as your thumb when your arm is fully extended. It's so small that the front sight post on most weapons will obscure it. Furthermore, identification of targets will be almost impossible at that range without magnified optics, which come with a bit of reduced usability in close quarters environments. Most combat will be happening at 300 meters or less. So I would worry less about hitting a 600 meter target with a rifle and more about ensuring that the infantry are capable of reliably engaging targets at typical ranges of about 300 to 400 meters.

I agree. I said I prefer. I am realistic to combat condations. I know its a long range. I just prefer to give troops the most powerful rounds. But 6.5 or 6.8 work better for combat.

neither are particularly good because theyre constrained to an old cartridge size for fairly arbitrary reasons that don't apply to a military

theyre fine if you want to try to prop up a shrinking/dying industry of civilian gun mfgs led by 40-50 year old men who change cartridges and rifles like wives change purses and shoes but that's about it

6mm Unified is a better starting point, but it would require a totally new rifle, because its pressure is about 30-40% higher than the 5.56mm max pressures

naturally this isnt a problem for the biggest consumer of small arms: the military; it's only a problem for Jeb Smith or Cletus and Skeeter who are only allowed to spend $1000/year on new guns when the tax refund comes in

[The united American-Isreali empire]

depends on the skills of the infantry in question.

Basically no infantry soldier is going to be reliably engaging enemy infantry at 600 meters. First most infantry combat takes place at less than 300 meters, 600 meter engagements are rare. At 600 meters even a well trained infantry shooter isn't going to be reliably hitting man sized still target under ideal conditions, and in real combat your enemy is rarely going to be standing in the open and sitting still not to mention the stress of battle and other factors.

I agree i think the power of the ammo is helpful. But I do like the ammo for long ranged shooting if needed. But for intermediate use 6.5 and 6.8 ammo was the main subject. What my point was answering what i prefer. But I do believe 5.56mm nato isn't as good as the 6.5 and 6.8 ammo.

[Austrasien]

Just break into someone's house and use their stove.

[Gallia-]

>houses
>still standing
>still having power/gas

wheeze

[The Manticoran Empire]

Basically no infantry soldier is going to be reliably engaging enemy infantry at 600 meters. First most infantry combat takes place at less than 300 meters, 600 meter engagements are rare. At 600 meters even a well trained infantry shooter isn't going to be reliably hitting man sized still target under ideal conditions, and in real combat your enemy is rarely going to be standing in the open and sitting still not to mention the stress of battle and other factors.

I agree i think the power of the ammo is helpful. But I do like the ammo for long ranged shooting if needed. But for intermediate use 6.5 and 6.8 ammo was the main subject. What my point was answering what i prefer. But I do believe 5.56mm nato isn't as good as the 6.5 and 6.8 ammo.

Then have a designated marksman in the squads. There is no point in giving soldiers ammo that has more range than they will need. That was an issue with the rifles of the early 20th century, lethal out to more than 1,000 meters but used by soldiers who can't hit targets beyond 300 meters.