Infantry Discussion Thread part 11: Gallas Razor edition.

[Taihei Tengoku]

xm25 a bad

psq-20 better

[Manokan Republic]

What about issuing canister shells for th xm25 for close range and self defense?

Well in theory you could use sub-caliber sabots, such as an ordinary rifle round, however the main problem is that it would be very heavy and large. You'd be better off with an assault rifle and XM25 rather than using 25mm grenades for general combat as the rounds would just be very large. A typical grenade is around 140 grams or more, and so if you were to use canister rounds, you could only carry so many in terms of weight. A light weight assault rifle and 150 rounds of 5.56mm ammunition might be around 10-12 pounds, and ammunition for an XM25 of the same weight might be around 20 or so rounds.

The canister rounds likely would be very close range only as well and lack armor penetration. However, it could work, it just would be less effective than carrying two guns in terms of weight.

[Gallia-]

xm25 should be xm30

What about issuing canister shells for th xm25 for close range and self defense?

all xm25

if you cant hit a target with a laser guided FCS you certainly wont do better with 300 rounds of ammo

[Purpelia]

The great thing is the polymer and caseless ammunition is more or less proven, and there is a competition in the U.S. military right now for just such a thing.

As said, this layout needs to be based around technology I could get off the shelf in circa 1990-2000 and than augmented by modern weapons and not designed in 2020 with what ever might be in service in 2025 in mind.

However, something like a Stoner 63 is only 10 pounds vs. 17 pounds for the M249 machine gun, and is known for having very low recoil despite it's size, with it being widely by the Navy Seals and marines, although was never officially adopted as the goal was to have the M249 replace all of the light machine guns. As recent attempts have been made to downsize the M249 or replace it with a smaller assault rifle entirely, it seems like the stoner 63 might have been a good choice to at least retain, and so it's a good alternative to larger machine guns, while also having less recoil. A modernized stoner 63 type weapon exists, known as the Knight's armament assault machine gun. You can see people firing it in 7.62mm NATO and see it has very little felt recoil despite it's small size. It's primary drawback presumably would be overheating, as in needing to more frequently change barrels, and the fact it will generally be less reliable as it's probably not as chunky, although likely sufficient for infantry purposes who don't carry 10's of thousands of rounds, and thus don't have to worry about reliability nearly as much. Another advantage of quick barrel changes is the ability to make the barrel shorter, so you can quickly switch between carbine and full sized versions. The full sized version may have a 4 pound barrel and be 11 pounds, where as a commando version might have a 1 pound barrel and be 8 pounds, being lighter and more maneuverable in close quarters. The RPG-7 and whatnot also exists, as do underbarrel grenade launchers and thermal vision scopes and whatnot.

I think we are definitively not on the same page here. When I say machinegun I generally think of things more along the lines of a PKM. A full power 7.5x55mm machinegun that can reach out and ruin someones day. I don't really intend to have anything comparable to the SAW other than issuing every rifleman with a Beta C style drum mag as their primary one.

Thermal vision scopes for everyone is a good idea in my opinion, as they aren't that expensive and have a lot of benefits. In the grand scheme of things when the cost of vehicles and training are factored in for soldiers, as well as things like logistics, the cost of their weapons and other equipment is largely minuscule by comparison. Thus having a 5000 dollar thermal vision scope per soldier when the training costs over 100,000 per soldier and the vehicle is in the millions of dollars, at least hundreds of thousands per soldier, their salaries and food and logistics and whatnot are in the 10's of thousands per year, is small by comparison. A single piece of equipment bought one time vs. something you have to spend every year.

That's my logic as well. Of course, logic some times has to clash head first into procurement budgets and realistic if sad burrocracy. But yea, at least on paper all of my army has night vision these days.

It ends up being like .01% of the budget and yet every soldier has night vision, can see living targets easier, infrared lasers which help aim, can have a weapon that automatically aims such as with aimpoint tracking scopes, can even see things like footprints and through certain types of walls, and so on.

Let's not get carried away. Purpelia is a second rate power in the realm of France or the UK and thus definitively not privet to the sort of tech America or Russia might end up fielding in a decade.

A high velocity is still achievable with an underbarrel grenade launcher, as a short barrel is generally sufficient for the accuracy and velocity needed for most grenades. As well you can just make it really long, although those soldiers would need a longer mounting surface for that to be possible, having a longer barrel or it being integrated in some way. You could also have it mounted on top, and thus give it more space to be longer, but it would raise your sights up above the barrel which is less ergonomic. You could also have your XM25 guy just carry it on his back and have an assault rifle. The main drawback then is just weight.

Yea... as I said, you end up reinventing the OICW. Which sucked because it was too big and heavy.

[Manokan Republic]

The great thing is the polymer and caseless ammunition is more or less proven, and there is a competition in the U.S. military right now for just such a thing.

As said, this layout needs to be based around technology I could get off the shelf in circa 1990-2000 and than augmented by modern weapons and not designed in 2020 with what ever might be in service in 2025 in mind.

However, something like a Stoner 63 is only 10 pounds vs. 17 pounds for the M249 machine gun, and is known for having very low recoil despite it's size, with it being widely by the Navy Seals and marines, although was never officially adopted as the goal was to have the M249 replace all of the light machine guns. As recent attempts have been made to downsize the M249 or replace it with a smaller assault rifle entirely, it seems like the stoner 63 might have been a good choice to at least retain, and so it's a good alternative to larger machine guns, while also having less recoil. A modernized stoner 63 type weapon exists, known as the Knight's armament assault machine gun. You can see people firing it in 7.62mm NATO and see it has very little felt recoil despite it's small size. It's primary drawback presumably would be overheating, as in needing to more frequently change barrels, and the fact it will generally be less reliable as it's probably not as chunky, although likely sufficient for infantry purposes who don't carry 10's of thousands of rounds, and thus don't have to worry about reliability nearly as much. Another advantage of quick barrel changes is the ability to make the barrel shorter, so you can quickly switch between carbine and full sized versions. The full sized version may have a 4 pound barrel and be 11 pounds, where as a commando version might have a 1 pound barrel and be 8 pounds, being lighter and more maneuverable in close quarters. The RPG-7 and whatnot also exists, as do underbarrel grenade launchers and thermal vision scopes and whatnot.

I think we are definitively not on the same page here. When I say machinegun I generally think of things more along the lines of a PKM. A full power 7.5x55mm machinegun that can reach out and ruin someones day. I don't really intend to have anything comparable to the SAW other than issuing every rifleman with a Beta C style drum mag as their primary one.

Thermal vision scopes for everyone is a good idea in my opinion, as they aren't that expensive and have a lot of benefits. In the grand scheme of things when the cost of vehicles and training are factored in for soldiers, as well as things like logistics, the cost of their weapons and other equipment is largely minuscule by comparison. Thus having a 5000 dollar thermal vision scope per soldier when the training costs over 100,000 per soldier and the vehicle is in the millions of dollars, at least hundreds of thousands per soldier, their salaries and food and logistics and whatnot are in the 10's of thousands per year, is small by comparison. A single piece of equipment bought one time vs. something you have to spend every year.

That's my logic as well. Of course, logic some times has to clash head first into procurement budgets and realistic if sad burrocracy. But yea, at least on paper all of my army has night vision these days.

It ends up being like .01% of the budget and yet every soldier has night vision, can see living targets easier, infrared lasers which help aim, can have a weapon that automatically aims such as with aimpoint tracking scopes, can even see things like footprints and through certain types of walls, and so on.

Let's not get carried away. Purpelia is a second rate power in the realm of France or the UK and thus definitively not privet to the sort of tech America or Russia might end up fielding in a decade.

A high velocity is still achievable with an underbarrel grenade launcher, as a short barrel is generally sufficient for the accuracy and velocity needed for most grenades. As well you can just make it really long, although those soldiers would need a longer mounting surface for that to be possible, having a longer barrel or it being integrated in some way. You could also have it mounted on top, and thus give it more space to be longer, but it would raise your sights up above the barrel which is less ergonomic. You could also have your XM25 guy just carry it on his back and have an assault rifle. The main drawback then is just weight.

Yea... as I said, you end up reinventing the OICW. Which sucked because it was too big and heavy.

The goal of a stoner 63 in 7.62mm NATO or something like a Mk. 48 is so you can have SAW like maneuverability while maintaining a large machine gun's firepower. A PKM machine gun is 16 pounds while the stoner 63 is 14.5 pounds, meaning they are not that different in terms of weight or purpose. The primary difference is it's shorter, better weighted, and has far less recoil, making it more viable as a SAW and a GPMG. The idea is so you can have infantry maneuver more easily and do leap frog tactics while also having the heavier firepower, rather than to be a 5.56mm SAW. If you can get the same abilities but with a smaller gun, it's generally better to go with the smaller gun. The reference to the Stoner 63 is just that it's been around since the 60's and 70's, not that it's necessarily the best per se or the only option. A PKM machine gun is designed for a similiar role, but it just has a lot of recoil and is slightly heavier and less accurate.

Aimpoint tracking scopes are not particularly expensive when in comparison to thermal vision scopes and are not that complicated technologically; they also have been around for a long time. Thermal vision acts as night vision and can see through various and walls and all that automatically, so it's not really an extra feature per se. Adding a grenade launcher on top doesn't end up becoming an OICW, because it's still a single shot grenade launcher instead of a multiple shot one. The XM25 is 14 pounds, while an underbarrel grenade launcher, or an overbarrel one with a longer barrel but using the same firing mechanism, can be as low as 1.3 pounds. With a thermal vision scope, you are adding like 2-4 pounds to an existing firearm, which can already be like 6.5-8 pounds. The entire concept is it weighs as much as an ordinary assault rifle with a grenade launcher or even lighter. Neither is carrying two guns, like an XM25 or assault rifle, like the OICW. The gun was too bulky and the grenade was too weak, as was the assault rifle portion, but both of these problems can be overcome. As for an OICW like weapon, the Steyr Aug used an electrically ignited metal storm grenade launcher, to fire rounds more rapidly, and uses higher velocity 40mm grenades, fired semi-automatically, and had a 20 inch long barrel on the Steyr aug, making it a better assault rifle and grenade launcher. The grenade launching portion was only like 5 pounds, although with the scope and everything fully loaded the gun was like 17 pounds, which is marginally heavier than just an XM25. You might just be better off with the underbarrel grenade launcher or carrying two weapons, but this was designed back in the 90's and was better than the OICW at the time.

[Gallia-]

an oicw but instead of 25mm grenades it just has 8 6.5mm grendel barrels clustered together like a pepperbox

ultimate weapon

[Puzikas]

Did you post that just to make me nauseous

[Manokan Republic]

an oicw but instead of 25mm grenades it just has 8 6.5mm grendel barrels clustered together like a pepperbox

ultimate weapon

Uh, duh, that's pretty stupid, the grenade launcher is mounted to the pepperbox 6.5mm grendel, sheesh. I mean why give up any one feature? You may still want air-bursting grenades.

[Kazarogkai]

Your talking is reminding of this particular little piece:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5yZJugzGXM

Odd idea but maybe has some mild potential. Shotguns tend not to have much accuracy pas around 100 yards, this provides for potential ideas if you will for how to rectify that problem. I'm thinking some type of weird disposable revolver cylinder shaped en-block clip combined with a method for atleast semi auto fire. Could have potential. Operative word could.

[Manokan Republic]

Your talking is reminding of this particular little piece:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5yZJugzGXM

Odd idea but maybe has some mild potential. Shotguns tend not to have much accuracy pas around 100 yards, this provides for potential ideas if you will for how to rectify that problem. I'm thinking some type of weird disposable revolver cylinder shaped en-block clip combined with a method for at least semi auto fire. Could have potential. Operative word could.

Something like a minigun is probably more practical in real life since it can fire and load automatically, and given it's high rate of fire would allow for a similiar dispersion if you moved the gun around a bit, thus replacing the value of a shotgun while also being something like an autoloading rifle or machine gun. Mainly barrels are among the most expensive parts of a gun, and so 7 barrels is still going to be very expensive, say 150 dollars per barrel for a .22 is still like 1050 dollars just for the barrels, and then there's the hammer and what have you. For a larger gun, it will be more expensive as the barrels will be substantially more expensive. Still not a bad idea.

I've always had the idea of a pump action .22 with like 8 barrels or something, and it being tube fed, so it fires more rapidly, but again it would be expensive. But cool! The thing is if you're going to buy a 1500 dollar shotgun, it's going to be a benneli or Spaz-12 or something and so the market would be lower for it. If you could produce a bunch of really cheap barrels, it might be more viable.

[Purpelia]

Or you could just go full Purpelian and issue the XM-25 with a *wait for it* BAYONET.
Because Purpelia.


Also like give your grenades a minimum flight time before arming so that if you are close up you can safely use them as 25mm shotgun slugs.

[Dothrakia]

One thing I've been struggling with is how to incorporate everything I want into my squad. Put simply I can't go above 8 dismounts and I want:
1 x full power LMG (needs 1 guy but 2 ideally)
1 x RPG-7 (again, 1 person but 2 ideally)
1 x XM25 style launcher (once again, 1 guy but 2 ideally)
1 x UGL (1 guy)

But this just feels too heavy. I mean, I'd only end up with 1 guy fully free to run around bayoneting people without also having to do bubble duty as an ammo carrier.

This is what I do for my load outs. (M-94 is basically M4 and M68 is basically Galil)
Personally I don't think your load out would be too much of an issue so long as the "extra guy" in your RPG/LMG/XM25 teams has some kind of carbine or SMG they can use so they aren't standing there with a thumb up their bum when they're engaged in a firefight where heavy weapons aren't needed. (In WW2 Americans gave their bazooka and MG guys the M1 Carbine to carry).
Also should point out that you're probably gonna want some kind of DMR at either the squad or platoon level.

Squad(10)
Squad Leader (M94 w/M203); Heavy Weapons (Negev 5.56)
Team Leader/Grenadier (M94 w/M203); Rifleman (M68); Rifleman (M68); Rifleman (M94 w/ACOG)
Team Leader/Grenadier (M94 w/M203); Rifleman (M68); Rifleman (M68); Rifleman (Mk. 55 EBR)
Platoon(43)
3 Squads
1 Weapons Squad (2x2 man MG team, 1x2 man SMAW team, Squad leader)
1 Platoon Squad (Platoon Leader, Platoon 2nd in command, medic, radioman, 2 scouts)

[The Manticoran Empire]

Since squad loadouts seem to be the in-thing today.

Mechanized Infantry Squad
Vehicle Team in Griffin III IFV
- Vehicle Commander with M8 Personal Defense Weapon
- Gunner with M8 Personal Defense Weapon
- Driver with M8 Personal Defense Weapon
Dismount Team
- Squad Leader with M8 Assault Rifle
- Assistant Squad Leader with M8 Assault Rifle
- Marksman with M8 Marksman Rifle
- Support Gunner with M8 Light Support Weapon
- Grenadier with M8 Assault Rifle and underslung grenade launcher
- Drone Operator with M8 Assault Rifle and quadcopter recon drone.

Motorized Infantry Squad
Vehicle Team in Stryker Dragoon IFV
- Vehicle Commander with M8 Personal Defense Weapon
- Gunner with M8 Personal Defense Weapon
- Driver with M8 Personal Defense Weapon
Dismount Team
- Squad Leader with M8 Assault Rifle
- Assistant Squad Leader with M8 Assault Rifle x2
- Marksman with M8 Marksman Rifle
- Support Gunner with M8 Light Support Weapon x2
- Grenadier with M8 Assault Rifle and underslung grenade launcher x2
- Drone Operator with M8 Assault Rifle and quadcopter recon drone

Light Infantry Squad
- Squad Leader with M8 Assault Rifle
- Assistant Squad Leader with M8 Assault Rifle x2
- Marksman with M8 Marksman Rifle x2
- Support Gunner with M8 Light Support Weapon x2
- Grenadier with M8 Assault Rifle and underslung grenade launcher x2
- Drone Operator with M8 Assault Rifle and quadcopter recon drone
- Radio Telephone Operator with M8 Assault Rifle

[Post War America]

Well since we're doing breakdowns. I've got platoons I think may need some work. Note the FAL/Aug or M-1911/Five-SeveN is a distinction between branches of service, and Platoons would not have multiple weapon types within the platoon.

Motor Rifle Platoon

Command Section

Vehicle Team
TAM VCTP
Commander (UMP 45)
Driver (M-1911/Five-SeveN)
Gunner (M-1911/Five-SeveN)
Platoon Command Team
Platoon Commander (FAL/Aug)
Platoon Sergeant (FAL & AG36/Aug & AG36)
Platoon Radio Operator (FAL/Aug)
Platoon Interpreter (Foreign deployments only) (FAL/Aug)
Platoon Mortar Team
Mortar Team Command (FAL/Aug)
Mortar Carrier (FAL/Aug/UMP 45 & M6C-210)
Mortar Carrier (FAL/Aug/UMP 45 & M6C-210)
Mortar Assistant (FAL/Aug)
Mortar Assistant (FAL/Aug)

2x Rifle/GMPG Section

Vehicle Team
TAM VCTP
Commander (UMP 45)
Driver (M-1911/Five-SeveN)
Gunner (M-1911/Five-SeveN)
Command Team
Squad Commander (FAL/Aug)
Grenadier (FAL & AG36/Aug & AG36)
Rifleman (FAL/Aug)
Weapons Team
Squad 2iC (FAL & AT4/Aug & AT4)
Gunner (MG3)
Gunner's Assistant (FAL/Aug)
Maneuver Team
Automatic Rifleman (FALO/Aug HBAR)
Rifleman (FAL/Aug)
Marksman/Rifleman (FAL/Aug HB with nicer optics)

1x Rifle/Demolitions Section

Vehicle Team
TAM VCTP
Commander (UMP 45)
Driver (M-1911/Five-SeveN)
Gunner (M-1911/Five-SeveN)
Command Team
Squad Commander (FAL/Aug)
Grenadier (FAL & AG36/Aug & AG36)
Rifleman (FAL/Aug)
Weapons Team
Squad 2iC (FAL & AG36/Aug & AG36)
Demolitionist (FAL and AT4/Aug and Carl Gustav)
Demolitionist's Assistant (FAL/Aug)
Maneuver Team
Automatic Rifleman (FALO/Aug HBAR)
Rifleman (FAL/Aug)
Marksman/Rifleman (FAL/Aug HB with nicer optics)

[Theodosiya]

You guys did it again? Fine.

Motorized/Mechanized Platoon HQ (former in Boxers, latter in Lynx. Both have same weapons set, a Bushmaster III 35mm, a SPIKE ATGM + 5 missiles, MG3 GPMG coax and, depending on the vehicle, either a HMG or a AGL. [That is, Squad elements have .50, Platoon HQ got 40mm. So, 3x with HMG, 1x with AGL. And also, an AMOS 120mm system. Or an automatic 81mm. Or just have regular 60mm mortar team])

Platoon Leader, 1st Lt, HK-416A5 16'5 + M320
Platoon Sergeant, SFC, HK-416A5 16'5 + M320
Platoon Drone Operator, SGT, HK-416A5 16'5 + Drone
Forward Observer, SGT, HK-416A5
Forward Observer Radio Operator, CPL, HK-416A5
Platoon Medic, CPL, HK-416A5

Platoon HQ vehicle.

Vehicle Commander, SGT, HK-416A5 14'5
Driver/Radio Operator, SPC, HK-416A5 14'5
Gunner, SPC, HK-416A5 14'5

Platoon Mortar vehicle

Vehicle Commander, SSGT, HK-416A5 14'5
Driver/Radio Operator, SPC, HK-416A5 14'5
Gunner, SGT , HK-416A5 14'5
Assistant Gunner, SPC, HK-416A5 14'5

3x Identical Squads of :

Vehicle Commander/Squad Leader/Team Leader (if SL dismount, they'll swap with one of the Team Leader), SSGT/SGT, HK-416A5 16'5 + M320
Driver/Radio Operator, SPC, HK-416A5 14'5
Gunner, SPC, HK-416A5 14'5
Squad Drone Operator, CPL, HK-416A5 16'5 + Drone

Maneuver Team

Team Leader, SGT/CPL, HK-416A5 16'5 + M320GL
SAW Gunner, CPL/PFC, MG-4
DMR, PFC, HK-417A2 '20
Riflemen, PFC, HK-416A5 16'5

Fire Team

Team Leader, SGT/CPL, HK-416A5 16'5 + M320GL
SAW Gunner, CPL/PFC, MG-4
Riflemen, PFC, HK-416A5 16'5
AT Operator, PFC, HK-416A5 14'5 + MATADOR, could be replaced with Carl-Gustav, which means the rifleman will be ammo bearer.

More disposables could be handed, but each squad will be alloted only one Carl-Gustav M5.

[Purpelia]

Personally I was thinking of something like this:

Each squad gets an IFV which means 1x40mm autocannon, 1x7.5mm chaingun, 1xATGM (originally something lame like the TOW but now a days upgraded to something better). Platoon commander gets an IFV just like that making for 5 per platoon.
Inside you get something like this:

Squad - 8 men = 1xRPK equivalent in 7.5x55, 1xRPG-7 with fancy modern airburst sights and stuff, 1xXM-25 equivalent, 1xUGL (mostly for throwing smoke really), 7x bullpup assault rifle in 5.5x42mm Purpelian. And yes, that's 7. Everyone but the MG guy gets a rifle.

On top of that you get the platoon HQ which is:
Commander, Medic and Sargeant, 1xSword + 3x rifle
Mortar team = 2 men, 2xRifle, 1x60mm mortar (mostly for smoke and light HE work)
GMG team = 2 men, 1x rifle, 1x35mm GMG (Think the Chinese QLZ-87 but with fancy XM-25 style sights)

So a bit heavy on the support side to be sure, but not terribly so.

[Manokan Republic]

I thought I had it all figured out, but with questions in vehicle sizes it's thrown my squad all out of whack. One I particularly like, because it's smol, is a 10 man squad with 3 teams of 3 and one leader/specialist individual. You can probably squeeze that many guys in a Stryker if you really wanted to, or other APC's, so it makes it better for uniformity. So it would be 3 fireteams of 3, and this would be along the rule of three like the marines. Recently the marines did this, but added 2 extra guys, a marksmen and drone guy to it. The theory is the three guys all leap frog off of each other, instead of 2 teams of 2 leap frogging, which works a lot like a 2-man fire and maneuver team, only with three people.

Then you have at least one more vehicle for the auxiliary units, which is a combination of various machine guns. It's hard to know what to use, but primarily it's 2 weapons teams of 3 (for four guys), +4 extra guys, possibly a medic or command team, or 3 weapons team + the leader. It depends on if the command unit is integrated in to the squad or not or it's own separate thing. In theory you can use 5 vehicles for a platoon of 50 guys or so, or have the fifth vehicle be a medical vehicle, but that may be a tad excessive. So 3 vehicles for the infantry squads and preferably 1, but maybe 2, for the rest of the platoon for a total or 4-5 vehicles, basically all some stryker-esque style APC or large APC. With an M113, you could have 11 soldiers, so that's with an extra speciality guy. And with a 12 man vehicle it's like the marines in real life.

So pretty basic, three teams of three. The only thing that's interesting is, you can either use a grenadier, riflemen and machine gun, two grenadiers and a machine gun, or a very light machine gun like the marines, so an IAR. With the marines every soldier may use the HK416, so that's like 10 soldiers with HK416's, and then 3 that have grenade launchers or something. Two soldiers leap frog while the third launches grenades or alternates in and out of the leap frog pattern when desired. Mine would probably be two grenadiers and one machine gunners, mostly because machine guns have gotten much smaller, with the LSAT being a mere 10 pounds for example, and grenade launchers have as well, possibly being reduced to as little as 1.3 pounds vs. 3.5 pounds of the olden days, making the rifle only marginally heavier than before. 2 Grenadiers and some kind of machine gunner may seem excessive, but it's possible with more advanced technology. So that's 6-7 grenadiers and then 3 machine guns, which is a lot and may be more of a dream than anything. But it seems possible with newer lighter equipment. The lighter it becomes the more roles you can play with it.

At the platoon level, you have three squads that alternate leap frogging in the same way, and then the 4th weapons squad that does whatever and is sort of "floating" around as needed. Ideally I think this unit would have something akin to the russian AGL-30, as they are air-bursting automatic grenade launchers that are quite small and easily carried and deployed by a single soldier, tripod and all, in groups of three as well, that could defeat fairly well armored APC's given the 3+ inches of armor penetration with the grenade, or infantry as it explodes. And as it can sort of replace a mortar round with exploding air-bursting rounds that can go behind cover, but also be fired in a straight line more like a machine gun, it kind of replicates a heavy machine gun but in a smaller package. As there would be a higher proportion of machine guns in the squad themselves, they wouldn't need as much outside assistance. Assuming this isn't the case, then a standard LMG, or something like a .338 Norma machine gun like the LWWMG seem fine. The 24 pound LWWMG is lighter than an M240, has roughly the same recoil due to the reciprocating barrel, and can shoot out to nearly the range of a .50 cal due to how aerodynamic and accurate it is, serving as a sort of sniper rifle machine gun. As a very long range machine gun it can provide support fire better, and also the team would act kind of like a sniper team, particularly if they had a good scope. As firing lots of rounds compensates for any lack in training, they probably could do about as well at least in the protection role of the squad, and as most U.S. marine platoons ahve at least one sniper team in overwatch, kind of replace this position. This same unit could in actuality be a 3 man scout sniper team, with one actual real sniper in the unit using the same ammunition, and acting as an ammunition carrier for the main gun. It's a more efficient use of resources in that respect, and they kind of have a similiar role of suppressive fire. An auto aimpoint tracking scope to automatically sight in the weapon could also help fill in the skills gap (aiming still require micro adjustments on your part usually, against moving or multiple targerts), and would probably be worth it since machine guns are usually expensive anyways and mounted on tripods/bipods and such for better accuracy. It also has slightly better firepower, meaning better barrier penetration and the ability to penetrate through level III body armor at 1100 yards. Not a bad idea.



Squad
-Squad Leader or Marksmen

Fireteam 1
-Riflemen (or Grenadier)
-Riflemen (or Grenadier)
-SAW

Fireteam 2
-Riflemen (or Grenadier)
-Riflemen (or Grenadier)
-SAW

Fireteam 3
-Riflemen (or Grenadier)
-Riflemen (or Grenadier)
-SAW

[Dothrakia]

Personally I was thinking of something like this:

Each squad gets an IFV which means 1x40mm autocannon, 1x7.5mm chaingun, 1xATGM (originally something lame like the TOW but now a days upgraded to something better). Platoon commander gets an IFV just like that making for 5 per platoon.
Inside you get something like this:

Squad - 8 men = 1xRPK equivalent in 7.5x55, 1xRPG-7 with fancy modern airburst sights and stuff, 1xXM-25 equivalent, 1xUGL (mostly for throwing smoke really), 7x bullpup assault rifle in 5.5x42mm Purpelian. And yes, that's 7. Everyone but the MG guy gets a rifle.

On top of that you get the platoon HQ which is:
Commander, Medic and Sargeant, 1xSword + 3x rifle
Mortar team = 2 men, 2xRifle, 1x60mm mortar (mostly for smoke and light HE work)
GMG team = 2 men, 1x rifle, 1x35mm GMG (Think the Chinese QLZ-87 but with fancy XM-25 style sights)

So a bit heavy on the support side to be sure, but not terribly so.

Yea if I were you I'd drop one of the launchers since it seems kind of redundant to have 3 launchers PLUS an IFV in every squad

[Theodosiya]

Seems Purp and mine are someway close in firepower...

Seems my TOE are a bit too bland/normal, yes?

[Kazarogkai]

Might as well join in the fun I ain't doing much. Just be unique I'll show off the 2 different Infantry Groups(platoon Equivalent) I had in use, one during the later part of WW1 and the latter in the late interwar-early WW2 period Just to compare the two:


1920 Standard A Rifle Group (3 Officers, 3 Junior Officers, 30 Men)
A HQ Section
- 2 Lieutenants
- 2 Runners
B Supply Train
- Quartermaster
- Armorer
- 2 Eland Handlers
C Gun Section
- Gun Leader
- Gunner
- Loader
- Ammo Bearer
D Rifle Section 2x
- Section Leader
- Pointman
- 10 Riflemen
E Weapons Loadout
- x31 S-50 Rifle, Sorta a weird .25 Cal upgraded Not! Gewehr 1888 Rifle with a 10 Round tube mag
- x4 S-58 Shotgun, Effectively a 12 gauge shotgun variant of their main service Rifle
- x1 S-60 LMG, Local .25 Cal Not!Madsen-gun

1938 Standard A Rifle Group (3 Officers, 6 Junior Officers, 27 Men)
A HQ Section
- 2 Lieutenants
- 2 Runners
B Supply Train
- Quartermaster
- Armorer
- 2 Wagon Drivers
C Mortar Section
- 2 Gunners
- 2 Assistants
D Rifle Section 2x
a Gun Team 5
- Section Leader
- 2 Gunners
- 2 Assistants
b Rifle Team
- Assistant SL
- 6 Riflemen
E Weapons Loadout
- x22 S-78/82 Rifle, Locally produced lee enfield action rifle as 12 round mag with the local .25 cal bullet
- x4 S-58 Shotgun, Effectively a 12 gauge shotgun variant of their main service rifle
- x4 S-60/80 LMG, Local .25 Cal Not!Madsen-gun upgraded with modern features(changeable barrel, new mag, etc)
- x2 S-72 Grenade Cup, Cup type launcher
- x4 SA-78 Machine Pistol, .25 cal pistol SMG, uses a Mauser c96 base but upgunned
- x1 S-80/85 Tank Hunter Rifle, .75 cal High power single shot Bolt action rifle
- x2 S-78 Grenade Infantry Projector, similar to a Japanese Type 89 a bit heavier and with better range

[Theodosiya]

In light of a recent discussion...

Non Marine Light Infantry/Light Motorized Infantry/Light Airborne/Light Air Assault Platoon... (also, I decided to switch to square maneuver without counting support, so now size will be larger)

A option

Platoon HQ Squad

Command Team

Platoon Leader, 1st Lt, HK-416A5 16'5 + M320
Platoon Sergeant, SFC, HK-416A5 16'5 + M320
Platoon Drone Operator, SGT, HK-416A5 16'5 + Drone
Forward Observer, SGT, HK-416A5
Forward Observer Radio Operator, CPL, HK-416A5 16'5
Platoon Medic, CPL, HK-416A5 16'5
Platoon Radioman, PFC, HK-416A5 16'5
Platoon 60mm commando mortar operator, CPL, HK-416A5 16'5 + mortar
2x Platoon 60mm mortar assistant, PFC, HK-416A5 16'5

Platoon Weapon Squad

PWS Leader, SSGT, HK-416A5 16'5 + M320

2x Javelin ATGM team

Javelin Operator, SGT, Javelin + HK-416A5 16'5
Javelin Operator Assistant, CPL, HK-416A5 16'5
2x Javelin Missile Carrier, PFC, HK-416A5 16'5

2x MG3 Team

MG3 Operator, SGT, MG3
MG3 Operator Assistant, CPL, HK-416A5 16'5
2x MG3 Ammo/Tripod Bearer, PFC, HK-416A5 16'5

3x Rifle Squad

Squad Leader, SSGT, HK-416A5 16'5 + M320GL
Squad Drone Operator, CPL, HK-416A5 16'5 + Drone

Maneuver Team

Team Leader, SGT, HK-416A5 16'5 + M320GL
SAW Gunner, CPL, MG-4
DMR, PFC, HK-417A2 '20
Riflemen, PFC, HK-416A5 16'5

Fire Team

Team Leader, SGT, HK-416A5 16'5 + M320GL
SAW Gunner, CPL, MG-4
Riflemen, PFC, HK-416A5 16'5
AT Operator, PFC, HK-416A5 14'5 + MATADOR, could be replaced with Carl-Gustav, which means one of the rifleman will be ammo bearer.

More disposables could be handed, but each squad will be alloted only one Carl-Gustav M5.

B Option

Platoon HQ Squad

Command Team

Platoon Leader, 1st Lt, HK-416A5 16'5 + M320
Platoon Sergeant, SFC, HK-416A5 16'5 + M320
Platoon Drone Operator, SGT, HK-416A5 16'5 + Drone
Forward Observer, SGT, HK-416A5
Forward Observer Radio Operator, CPL, HK-416A5 16'5
Platoon Medic, CPL, HK-416A5 16'5
Platoon Radioman, PFC, HK-416A5 16'5

Platoon Weapon Squad

PWS Leader, SSGT, HK-416A5 16'5 + M320

2x Javelin ATGM team

Javelin Operator, SGT, Javelin + HK-416A5 16'5
Javelin Operator Assistant, CPL, HK-416A5 16'5
2x Javelin Missile Carrier, PFC, HK-416A5 16'5

2x Mortar Team

Mortar Team Leader, SGT, HK-416A5 16'5 + M320
Mortar Team Radioman, PFC, HK-416A5 16'5
Platoon 60mm commando mortar operator, CPL, HK-416A5 16'5 + mortar
Platoon 60mm mortar assistant, PFC, HK-416A5 16'5

3x Rifle Squad

Command Team

Squad Leader, SSGT, HK-416A5 16'5 + M320GL
Squad Drone Operator, CPL, HK-416A5 16'5 + Drone
MG3 Operator, CPL, MG3
2x MG3 Ammo/Tripod Bearer, PFC, HK-416A5 16'5

Maneuver Team

Team Leader, SGT, HK-416A5 16'5 + M320GL
SAW Gunner, CPL, MG-4
DMR, PFC, HK-417A2 '20
Riflemen, PFC, HK-416A5 16'5

Fire Team

Team Leader, SGT, HK-416A5 16'5 + M320GL
SAW Gunner, CPL, MG-4
Riflemen, PFC, HK-416A5 16'5
AT Operator, PFC, HK-416A5 14'5 + MATADOR, could be replaced with Carl-Gustav, which means one of the rifleman will be ammo bearer.

More disposables could be handed, but each squad will be alloted only one Carl-Gustav M5.

Might as well discuss the (dis)advantages of A & B...

[Sevvania]

A typical Sevvanian Rifle Platoon divided into its four constituent squads, command element, and additional assets.

COMMAND ELEMENT
•Platoon Commander: Leads the unit. Typically carries a sidearm.
•Platoon Sergeant: Typically combat-experienced and tasked with advising the platoon commander. May carry a Mosin carbine or Outlander rifle.
•Radio Operator: Recieves and relays information via radio. M1940 Outlander rifle.
•Runner: Relays messages on foot.  M1940 Outlander rifle.
•Medic: May or may not be armed depending on circumstances. Shown here with a Mosin carbine.

RIFLE TEAM (x4)
•Squad Leader: Sevvanian Standard M1937 SMG
•Team Leader: Sevvanian Standard M1937 SMG or Outlander M1940 carbine
•Scouts (x2): Provide security and reconaissance for the squad, in addition to functioning as riflemen. They carry Mosins or Outlander M1940 rifles, and may help to form the Base of Fire upon contact with the enemy.
•Automatic Rifleman: Endeavors to pin the enemy in place through volume of fire, in order to facilitate the advance of the Maneuver Element. He is armed with an Outlander Automatic Rifle or Mark IV Machine Carbine.
•Assistant Gunner/Ammunition Bearer: Aid the Automatic Rifleman by carrying additional ammunition. They are armed with Outlander M1940 rifles.
•Riflemen (x4): The Riflemen, working in conjunction with the Base of Fire provided by the Automatic Rifleman and Assistant Gunner, endeavor to outmaneuver and close with the enemy. Outlander M1940 rifles, occasional Mosin. One of the platoon's riflemen may be issued with a low-magnification optic to serve as a sharpshooter.

ADDITIONAL ASSETS
•Sniper: Dedicated sharpshooter with higher-powered scope for his Mosin or Outlander M1940 rifle.
•Machine Gun Crew (x2): A machine gunner, assistant gunner/tripod bearer, and two ammunition bearers.
•Anti-Tank: Though not specifically issued to an individual soldier, each platoon is allocated at least one AT rifle and a pair of 70mm shoulder launchers.

[Theodosiya]

Looking at it again...

92 man platoon...Shit...

X4 them again and again, well... Let's just say that my formation will be fat.

Ah, fuck it. Back to reorganization all across...

[Immoren]

Border Patrol Detachment
Mounted component
1xDetachment commander (major)
1xEttin-class armoured car

Dismounted component
1xSquad leader (senior NCO)
1xWisp-class battlesuit
3xFireteam
Team leader (sergeant)
Rifleman (corporal)
2xWisp-class battlesuit


Border patrol detachment is basic ground unit found on patrol vessels of the Rim Guard. Detachment aren't large in size nor equipped with cutting edge gear, but they are considered enough for dealing with small scale stuff on the outer rim and buying time if larger defenses need to be summoned.

Ettin-class armoured car is core of the detachment, and it works as both base of communications and of fire for the detachment. It's powerful signals&signals warfare suite allows it to communicate with mothership on the orbit, enhance intra-detachment communication and mask detachment's presence and communications. It is equipped with contra-gravity device that allows it to directly insert into ground from ship without assist. This contra-gravity equipment, combined with multitrack configuration, gives it excellent mobility across cross-country.
Main armament is found in its two main gun bulbs. One facing forward and one facing rear, equipped with 150mm and 50mm guns. These bulbs can also be used elevate high enough to give AA-protection for detachment. Armoured car also features 4 mortar bulbs equipped with 120mm automatic gun-mortar in each, and 7 close defence bulbs mounting a single 25mm automatic cannon each.

Dismounted element consist of seven men in wisp-class cyborg suits and armed with basic hyperkinetic needle rifle. Unlike suits marines wear, its protective qualities are rudimentary: protection against fragments and basic small arms. On other hand Its environmental capabilities are nothing to sniff at and it has excellent onboard communications and cyber warfare suite handled by AI mounted on suit, so soldier can focus on closing in and engaging enemy. Both suit and rifle are linked and can share target acquisition and telemetry data with each other. Hyperkinetic, high density needles are fired in bursts of three, and while in close combat any steering is unneccesary, for larger distances needles have steering equipment, sensors, and computing power so they can be guided by the gunner to the target or leave steering ammunition's internal guidance.

[Gallia-]

this was good until i read mothership in orbit and got confused yeet

space toyota war