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Infantry Discussion Thread part 11: Gallas Razor edition.

A place to put national factbooks, embassy exchanges, and other information regarding the nations of the world. [In character]

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Manokan Republic
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Postby Manokan Republic » Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:26 pm

Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:The last actually good 6.5 mm bullets (and the only acceptable ones) were 6.5 Arisaka and 6,5 mm skarp patron m/94 projektil m/41.

Total lies.

It is sad but also true that the Arisak is only a moderately decent cartridge that is out dated by modern standards. As well, it has roughly comparable ballistics to the 6.5mm Grendel which is much lighter and usable in 5.56mm weapons, and the ariska fed poorly in auto loading firearms.
Last edited by Manokan Republic on Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:36 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby Puzikas » Sun Oct 14, 2018 8:53 pm

>unironically CTEd
It means something

I came back to formally announce my retirement from this cancer.

You know where to find me if you need me.

Some of you are cool
The rest of you should consider lobotomy as a career path

Goodbye, good luck, good riddance. You can still find my information in my posts until they turn to slag like the servers here, anything else is just garbage.

I formally turn over control of the IDT to Sevv, who no longer posts much, but if he does it is my wish that he, as the most handsome of all the IDT posters, keep the thread alive.

My actual wish is to much the IDT with the Tank thread and MilReal to form MilRealGen, and then close that down forever, but you can't always get what you want.
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Postby NeuPolska » Sun Oct 14, 2018 8:55 pm

It's ok Puz the community on NS as a whole has gotten worse it's not really worth staying anyway

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Postby Sevvania » Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:02 pm

I don't post much, but I am always here.

Usually waiting for Puz ;-;
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Postby Puzikas » Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:19 pm

Enshrined eternally.



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Postby Prosorusiya » Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:01 am

Alas! You will be missed, Puz. You were one of the few people who really knew their stuff here. Will you still be on Discord?

Don’t do much role play myself these days... but the new Rainbow 6 one is a possibility. I was wondering if people had suggestions on what role a short (5 ft) girl might best play in a Special Forces secenrio. I recall the Soviets said women were best used a snipers, since they don’t have to move as much as other combat infantry roles, so I am considering that as a strong possibility. But on the other hand I am contemplating maybe having the gals weapon be something lighter, like a sub machine gun, and going the other Soviet assasin/partisan route of just spraying the target with lead. Basically, I’m concerned with how long and heavy a weapon such a person can wield. Character is kinda inspired by a gal I like :oops: :blush: .

I am also wondering about the possibility of using a western weapon as her primary, since that would theoretically give plausible deniability, would that matter in a Rainbow 6 kind of op? Was considering maybe a M-2 carbine?
Last edited by Prosorusiya on Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:03 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Crookfur » Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:36 am

Go with rule one of Murphy rules for special ops: the smaller the person, the bigger the gun they carry. So comrade beefcake gets a PSM whilst comrade little woman gets a PKM.

;)

IIRC in Rogue Spear the Russian woman was either a sniper or one of the sneaky types...
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Postby Tevehas » Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:42 am

Daily reminder that dudes will be out here spending years to master tank gunnery only to get doinked by some conscript and his buddies using a wire guided ATGM launcher that requires a quarter of the training at something like one one-hundredth of the cost
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The Manticoran Empire
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Postby The Manticoran Empire » Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:04 am

Tevehas wrote:Daily reminder that dudes will be out here spending years to master tank gunnery only to get doinked by some conscript and his buddies using a wire guided ATGM launcher that requires a quarter of the training at something like one one-hundredth of the cost

That's been the case for like 70 years.
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Postby Fordorsia » Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:05 am

Discord>NS

Also I am clearly the most handsome

Image
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Postby The Manticoran Empire » Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:36 am

Fordorsia wrote:Discord>NS

Also I am clearly the most handsome

(Image)

What discord?
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Postby Fordorsia » Mon Oct 15, 2018 3:40 pm

I didn't say anything about discord
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San-Silvacian wrote:Forgot to take off my Rhodie shorts when I went to sleep.
Woke up in bitches and enemy combatants.

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Postby NeuPolska » Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:23 pm

Now we have to kill Ford

Nice job Fword

Great going Fourdooristan
Last edited by NeuPolska on Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Manokan Republic
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Postby Manokan Republic » Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:48 am

So anyways, I'm thinking 40mm Bofors and 30mm rounds will overtake the 25mm chaingun essentially, and that it will be possible to mount a chaingun on the top of the vehicle without seriously extending in to the cabin. There's a few designs out there, such as the Pandur II or Iveco Super AV (which was officially adopted by the marines), which extends only slightly or not at all in to the Cabin, with the Pandur allowing for 12 passengers and the IVECO 10 with the remote operated turret. And yes, remote operated turrets are much smaller than manned turrets, just as they'd be on tanks (with a manned turret only allowing for 8 passengers, instead of 10). The Pandur II provides the greatest turret maneuverability but low protection, and the Iveco provides greater protection but less maneuverability. The FNSS PARS is another option, but it's currently way over budget and slightly less effective. Both systems offer good anti-aircraft capabilities, particularly against helicopters, with various missiles potentially mounted next to the chaingun. The air-bursting chaingun ammunition also allows to defeat enemies hiding behind walls, around obstacles, or simply to pepper a wider area, with it being much easier to hit the target with a wide area of effect. The higher power also allows it to pierce the armor of most IFV's or APC's, unlike a .50 caliber machine gun. The secondary machine guns will of course be good for infantry support, while the main guns are good at fighting enemy infantry and aircraft, as well as supporting infantry against hard to reach targets, like behind large barriers or inside of buildings. It also allows for an easy time working with tanks, like the 25mm chaingun of the Bradley. Considering the massive firepower and strategic advantage of it, I think it will be a pretty big shift. The ability to provide a curtain of fire against aircraft will deter aircraft simply bombing APC's to pieces, or other vehicles nearby like tanks, while simultaneously allowing for the ability to defeat the armor of most other APC's. The air bursting capabilities will be great for defeating infantry, as well as infantry that are in hiding, and given how easy it would be to add to virtually all APC's, there doesn't really seem to be a reason not to use it. In large numbers it's even more useful, and would become an important element to strategy for both anti-air and infantry fighting purposes. You'd cut down on the number of vehicles you'd needed for different roles, and the same vehicles could theoretically also support tanks.

Anti-missile systems which shoot down missiles, like the iron curtain system, will protect against RPG's. Due to the high reliability and broad range of missiles it can defeat, it seems like standard anti-tank weapons will essentially become obsolete. Instead I imagine kinetic energy missiles, like the patriot missile, traveling at like 1500 m/s will be used instead. If you look at a javeline missile, it already accelerates a 20 or so pound projectile at 750 m/s, and if you halve the range you could get about 1500 m/s, or if you increased the rocket power. With a roughly comparably sized missile, say equivalent to an M1 abrams tank round, you'd have the same velocity and therefore power from the same sized projectile, but be able to penetrate through heavy tank armor and avoid being shot down by a system largely designed to destroy the electronics of the oncoming missiles. Titanium armor is likely to become more common, being more corrosion and heat resistance, and 40% lighter than steel, while being around the same strength. Titanium is only 15% more expensive than armored steel right now due to new manufacturing methods, and like the M777 Howitzer or M240L, the military is starting to use more titanium.


As for the infantry themselves, they'll probably use more compact, shorter guns with faster burning propellant allowing for shorter barrels, like the M855A1 or 6.8mm Remington, and potentially the LSAT caseless or telescopic polymer rounds. The LSAT machine gun for example, at a mere 10 pounds vs. 17 pounds for the M249, with the same reliability and ammunition that's half the weight, could allow the individual to carry 25 less pounds of gear for the same load-out (10 pounds + 15 pounds for 1000 rounds of ammunition, vs. 17 + 31-33 pounds), with a gun that's just as reliable and has less recoil. Considering that the U.S. marines are moving towards the M27 IAR concept to replace the standard M249 machine gun in most situations and the military is looking for a one size fits all firearm, The marines are also shifting towards arming all soldiers with suppressors and other equipment typically reserved for special forces units, particularly to enhance room clearing, and other units are following suit. The emphasis is also on low drag bullets, which have a longer range and greater overall power. The 6.5mm creedmoor or rounds like it are increasingly more popular, like in the LSAT program or with the special forces adopting the 6.5mm Creedmoor.

Rifle resistant helmets are becoming a thing, with the AS-600 capable of stopping a 7.62mm NATO or ak-47 cartridge, and the ECH supposed to be able to stop various unspecified 7.62mm rifle rounds. Considering that is it heavier than the AS-600, uses stronger dyneema with a reinforcing matrix a carbon fiber backing, I'm guessing it's at least as strong. The AS-600 has a V0 of 640 m/s with the 7.62mm NATO, but the V50 is higher. At long range at least it can stop rifle rounds, which is quite impressive. Full body rifle resistance will be rare, as will exoskeletons, but is theoretically possible. If you take the weight of the armor, covering about 1.3 square foot of surface area, and remove the weight of the chinstrap and inner lining (about .6 pounds), that gives about 2 to 2.5 pounds of weight per square foot, and if covered over the 20 square foot of the body, or 40-50 pounds to be rifle resistant which is, honestly not bad. Exoskeletons like the HULC might be used in machine gun teams, particularly if combined with cooling suits or oxygen concentrators, but time will tell. Anyways! This is just some observations, and it's going to be interesting to see how things turn out. We are in a turning phase right now where equipment is actually being upgraded, and in similiar manners all over the world, sort of like when assault rifles and battle rifles were adopted.
Last edited by Manokan Republic on Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Anemos Major
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Postby Anemos Major » Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:51 am

guess the post cut off because the DIA spooks got to Manokan before he could finish it

E: "we need to take this guy out before the entire world finds out about our plan to uprate our 25mm guns to shit that everybody else has been using for decades" (or a 50mm, if AUSA is any indication)
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Manokan Republic
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Postby Manokan Republic » Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:21 am

Anemos Major wrote:guess the post cut off because the DIA spooks got to Manokan before he could finish it

E: "we need to take this guy out before the entire world finds out about our plan to uprate our 25mm guns to shit that everybody else has been using for decades" (or a 50mm, if AUSA is any indication)

The main idea is slapping them on virtually all APC's, as opposed to just infantry fighting vehicles specifically. They're small enough to be fit on an APC with relative ease and without taking up too much cabin space, and are reliably electronically controlled, meaning you don't need gigantic manned weapons anymore.

There are only like 4500 strykers in the U.S. military, as we still haven't really upgraded to using large volumes of them, and they still don't have heavy chainguns on top. We still basically are using humvees and MRAP's for most transportation purposes, which are like 4-6 man vehicles and don't even carry a whole squad, or the M113, which isn't even .50 cal resistant. While these sorts of things already exist, that is an APC with a chaingun on top, they probably will be used in larger numbers in the future, and will serve in both anti-aircraft as well as anti-infantry roles.
Last edited by Manokan Republic on Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:25 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Postby Austrasien » Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:40 am

Prosorusiya wrote:Don’t do much role play myself these days... but the new Rainbow 6 one is a possibility. I was wondering if people had suggestions on what role a short (5 ft) girl might best play in a Special Forces secenrio.


None in all likelihood. Women experience muscle fatigue significantly faster than men carrying similar loads because of the significant difference in upper body strength (men are on average twice as strong and there is practically no overlap even between women above the 95th percentile and men below the 5th percentile in upper body strength) and muscle fatigue reduces hand stability, which compromises marksmanship. Women's hand stability also declines noticeably during part of the menstrual cycle.

So on average, between a man and women who shoot equally well in resting conditions, the man will shoot better more consistently. A 5ft woman would only make the situation much worse because height is one of the main predictors of upper body strength for both genders. A 5ft woman will likely be extremely weak in absolute terms, and so extremely susceptible to fatigue, and so...
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Postby Kazarogkai » Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:44 am

Austrasien wrote:
Prosorusiya wrote:Don’t do much role play myself these days... but the new Rainbow 6 one is a possibility. I was wondering if people had suggestions on what role a short (5 ft) girl might best play in a Special Forces secenrio.


None in all likelihood. Women experience muscle fatigue significantly faster than men carrying similar loads because of the significant difference in upper body strength (men are on average twice as strong and there is practically no overlap even between women above the 95th percentile and men below the 5th percentile in upper body strength) and muscle fatigue reduces hand stability, which compromises marksmanship. Women's hand stability also declines noticeably during part of the menstrual cycle.

So on average, between a man and women who shoot equally well in resting conditions, the man will shoot better more consistently. A 5ft woman would only make the situation much worse because height is one of the main predictors of upper body strength for both genders. A 5ft woman will likely be extremely weak in absolute terms, and so extremely susceptible to fatigue, and so...


Obviously women aren't supposed to be infantrymen(with exceptions), duh everyone knows that. The proper place for women is the artillery and vehicles namely ships, tanks(their small size is useful), and to a lesser degree fighter planes. Physical strength is largely irrelevant under such circumstances for the most part.
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Postby The Manticoran Empire » Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:15 pm

Kazarogkai wrote:
Austrasien wrote:
None in all likelihood. Women experience muscle fatigue significantly faster than men carrying similar loads because of the significant difference in upper body strength (men are on average twice as strong and there is practically no overlap even between women above the 95th percentile and men below the 5th percentile in upper body strength) and muscle fatigue reduces hand stability, which compromises marksmanship. Women's hand stability also declines noticeably during part of the menstrual cycle.

So on average, between a man and women who shoot equally well in resting conditions, the man will shoot better more consistently. A 5ft woman would only make the situation much worse because height is one of the main predictors of upper body strength for both genders. A 5ft woman will likely be extremely weak in absolute terms, and so extremely susceptible to fatigue, and so...


Obviously women aren't supposed to be infantrymen(with exceptions), duh everyone knows that. The proper place for women is the artillery and vehicles namely ships, tanks(their small size is useful), and to a lesser degree fighter planes. Physical strength is largely irrelevant under such circumstances for the most part.

Do you realize how HEAVY artillery shells get?
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Postby Prosorusiya » Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:08 am

My character is working off the "cute bruiser" archetype, for which a sniper role may or may not fit... 5ft was only an estimate, might go somewhere in the low end like 5' 3" ultimately. I might actually make her more of a spy\secret agent type.

Working on the service history at the moment... it goes something like this:

Age 16-18: Gorskaya Respublika DOSAAF, Shooting Team
Age 18-20: 19th Motor Rifle Regiment, 108th Recon Battalion
Age 21-22: 1st Marine Battalion, U-401 Kirovograd (Resigned 2013)?
Age 22-26: Fighting in Syria? Kurdistan as PMC? GRU Spy?

Dose that sound reasonable? Also, dose anybody have a list of what the old DOSAAF used for training weapons? IIRC it was a whole bunch of WW2 stuff including the PPsH-41 at one point.

Also, I am debating whether, for my "gadget", to give my gal a Soyka radio transmission interceptor, a concealed radio transceiver or audio recorder, or a concealed camera would be most useful for her job of hunting down terrorists? I do want to use something from the vast catalog of awesome Soviet era stuff I know of thanks to The Crypto Museum. Any suggestions?
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Postby Austrasien » Thu Oct 18, 2018 2:13 pm

Prosorusiya wrote:My character is working off the "cute bruiser" archetype, for which a sniper role may or may not fit...


Let's be honest here. This is a fetish, not a real thing.

Kazarogkai wrote:Obviously women aren't supposed to be infantrymen(with exceptions), duh everyone knows that. The proper place for women is the artillery and vehicles namely ships, tanks(their small size is useful), and to a lesser degree fighter planes. Physical strength is largely irrelevant under such circumstances for the most part.


1. Differences between men and women are not limited to physical strength. Women have a lower tolerance of G-force, are significantly more likely to suffer motion sickness, are worse at navigating etc etc. Men have stronger bodies and unsurprisingly brains better able to take advantage of them, they outperform women in just about all kinetic tasks.

2. Physical strength matters a lot for these things anyway.

3. Men are also better at mathematics and artillery, in addition to being one of the more physically demanding roles, is exceptionally math-heavy. As a very old Russian saying supposedly goes: "Cavalry for the dandy, Artillery for the educated man and Infantry for the idiot" or something like that.
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Postby Allanea » Thu Oct 18, 2018 2:51 pm

There's a difference between saying 'men on average are better than women at x' and 'it's unrealistic for a woman character to be doing X'.

It's perfectly realistic to have a character who is a woman and a member of a military/militia force in a variety of roles, because these things have happened IRL and continue to happen. I've literally served in the military with a woman who had prior experience as an artillery crew commander (and then went the officer route and...)

Women "volunteers" have turned up in every conflict in which post-Soviet countries have been involved, obviously this is not the norm but it has happened.

Here's Yelena Pavlova, who has literally married her husband after they fought in the 2014 Ukrainian conflict together (on the Russian side).

So while studies and statistics are nice, they describe averages at best. It is totally possible for a character to have a biography such as described, because there have been people who have done these very things IRL.
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Postby Prosorusiya » Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:14 pm

Allanea wrote:There's a difference between saying 'men on average are better than women at x' and 'it's unrealistic for a woman character to be doing X'.

It's perfectly realistic to have a character who is a woman and a member of a military/militia force in a variety of roles, because these things have happened IRL and continue to happen. I've literally served in the military with a woman who had prior experience as an artillery crew commander (and then went the officer route and...)

Women "volunteers" have turned up in every conflict in which post-Soviet countries have been involved, obviously this is not the norm but it has happened.

Here's Yelena Pavlova, who has literally married her husband after they fought in the 2014 Ukrainian conflict together (on the Russian side).

So while studies and statistics are nice, they describe averages at best. It is totally possible for a character to have a biography such as described, because there have been people who have done these very things IRL.


Thank you, you restore my faith in this community. I am thinking of dropping the time this gal spent in the Marines in favor of having her join the YPG, in one of their all women units. So looking at someone a little on the young side for SF work, maybe 23ish? Not unheard of though some have said fairly uncommon.
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Postby Austrasien » Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:15 pm

Allanea wrote:There's a difference between saying 'men on average are better than women at x' and 'it's unrealistic for a woman character to be doing X'.

It's perfectly realistic to have a character who is a woman and a member of a military/militia force in a variety of roles, because these things have happened IRL and continue to happen. I've literally served in the military with a woman who had prior experience as an artillery crew commander (and then went the officer route and...)

Women "volunteers" have turned up in every conflict in which post-Soviet countries have been involved, obviously this is not the norm but it has happened.

Here's Yelena Pavlova, who has literally married her husband after they fought in the 2014 Ukrainian conflict together (on the Russian side).

So while studies and statistics are nice, they describe averages at best. It is totally possible for a character to have a biography such as described, because there have been people who have done these very things IRL.


Perhaps this rewording will make things clearer:

Prosorusiya wrote:Don’t do much role play myself these days... but the new Rainbow 6 one is a possibility. I was wondering if people had suggestions on what role a twelve-year-old boy might best play in a Special Forces secenrio.


Recalling of course that many underage boys have and continue to fight in wars.
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The Manticoran Empire
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Postby The Manticoran Empire » Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:18 pm

Prosorusiya wrote:
Allanea wrote:There's a difference between saying 'men on average are better than women at x' and 'it's unrealistic for a woman character to be doing X'.

It's perfectly realistic to have a character who is a woman and a member of a military/militia force in a variety of roles, because these things have happened IRL and continue to happen. I've literally served in the military with a woman who had prior experience as an artillery crew commander (and then went the officer route and...)

Women "volunteers" have turned up in every conflict in which post-Soviet countries have been involved, obviously this is not the norm but it has happened.

Here's Yelena Pavlova, who has literally married her husband after they fought in the 2014 Ukrainian conflict together (on the Russian side).

So while studies and statistics are nice, they describe averages at best. It is totally possible for a character to have a biography such as described, because there have been people who have done these very things IRL.


Thank you, you restore my faith in this community. I am thinking of dropping the time this gal spent in the Marines in favor of having her join the YPG, in one of their all women units. So looking at someone a little on the young side for SF work, maybe 23ish? Not unheard of though some have said fairly uncommon.

Here's the thing. While individual women may be capable, the MAJORITY of women will be worse at combat roles than the MAJORITY of men. So while female military characters can make sense, in general women in combat roles present more problems than they provide benefits.
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