Infantry Discussion Thread part 11: Gallas Razor edition.

[Gallia-]

Basically my thought is on shotgun shells for an XM-25 like device so that the weapon can double up as the squad automatic shotgun.
Like, I really like the idea of having an XM-25 like weapon for long range grenade throwing but also having an auto shotgun for murdering everyone inside a building and I figure I could combine the two into a novelty weapon that would look nice, show up in a few arms expos and than newer appear in the field since that's how cool weapons always end up.

That's fine and might work.

It's not particularly novel, just about everyone who has played with 20-30mm GLs concepts has also played with defensive shot loads as an option.

It was considered for production for XM25 anyway. Along with HEAT/HEDP rounds for anti-BMP.

[Free-Don]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KS-23

I've basically done the same for my AMR barrels, aircraft cannons, AA guns, and various other rejected 20mm barrels from the interwar until the 1990. Converting the 20mm barrels to shotguns (the "worse" ones are sold off in bulk to private companies) and bolt action GLs.

[Austrasien]

A great way to make a shotgun that is crappy and weighs too much.

[Free-Don]

A great way to make a shotgun that is crappy and weighs too much.

How so? For a 4 gauge the KS is pretty light and all I'm making are regular 12-10 gauge.

[Austrasien]

How many other 4 gauge shotguns are there that aren't ancient and/or custom made?

Autocannons have higher operating pressures than shotguns. The popular 20mm Oerlikon cannon operates at about 44,000 PSI versus the SAAMI specified 11,500 PSI maximum permissible pressure for common 12 gauge shells. And being automatic weapons they are meant to resist intense barrel heating. A cut-down autocannon barrel will be significantly thicker and heavier than is necessary unless you bore a lot of it out.

[Fordorsia]

and some current NSers I am glad to call friends

Hey that's me. I am friend

[Austrasien]

Thought I'd give some short term sperg as I am quite bored and as usual after a long shift I have become wide awake upon returning home.

short term sperg

sperg

BAN THIS SICK FILTH

[Cosparia]

So here's my current idea for a Cosparian Army light infantry battalion:

- Rifle Company (3 rifle platoons each with 3 rifle squads)
- Rifle Company
- Rifle Company
- Weapons Company (includes HMG platoon, 81mm mortar platoon, and missile/assault weapon platoon)
- Support Company (includes medical platoon, supply and logistics platoon, and transportation platoon)

Each rifle squad is in an admittedly wonky setup, and currently has four NCOs, a rifleman, two grenadiers, two automatic riflemen, a machine gunner with a GPMG, an anti-tank gunner with a shoulder-fired launcher/RR, and the No.2 for the MG and AT:

- Squad Leader
Alpha Team:
- Team Leader
- Rifleman
- Grenadier
- Auto Rifleman
Bravo Team:
- Team Leader
- Auto Rifleman
- AT Gunner with CG/SMAW
- AT No.2
Charlie Team:
- Team Leader
- Grenadier
- Machine Gunner with MAG
- Machine Gun No.2

I'm thinking about eliminating one TL and putting the AT and MG teams into a 5-man weapons team headed by the SQL, with two conventional 4-man fireteams as maneuver elements:

Weapons/HQ team:
- Squad Leader
- Machine Gunner with MAG
- Machine Gun No.2
- AT Gunner with CG/SMAW
- AT No.2
Maneuver teams (x2):
- Team Leader
- Rifleman
- Grenadier
- Auto Riflemen

[Rhodesialund]

Prepped and ready we wished our human ballistic gel off. Imaging gave me the story I was expecting and my once over told me I was dealing with a 12 gauge GSW with buckshot-I never see anything but 00 buck, slug or #7½ bird, and this was obviously buck.

I have to ask since this was brought up. What is the most common shotgun loading you see in GSW in the ER? It's more or less out of personal curiosity and what the general trend is.

On another related question. Which of these loadings has consistently made treatment difficult and/or has a higher mortality rate?

[Puzikas]

Thought I'd give some short term sperg as I am quite bored and as usual after a long shift I have become wide awake upon returning home.

short term sperg

sperg

BAN THIS SICK FILTH

How dare I associated myself with something someone finds offensive
How dare I genuinely hold an opinion that can offend people just like they can me
I better go to the gulag

P.s., fuck your feelings, day of the Rake when?

How many other 4 gauge shotguns are there that aren't ancient and/or custom made?

None! Because the KS-23 is a unique special purpose weapon. It's operating pressure is dramatically higher than that of a 12 gauge shotgun (but lower than that of a 23mm auto cannon) and hurls rod-mortars containing gas for riot control and extremely large payload shells.

Keep in mind that, unless you're packing flechette shells, shotguns become useless against hostiles wearing body armor

100% untrue, they just aren't as effective.

I have to ask since this was brought up. What is the most common shotgun loading you see in GSW in the ER? It's more or less out of personal curiosity and what the general trend is.

12 gauge 00 buck, usually some variation of the low-recoil loads, followed by #7½, which is around here the cheapest ammunition you can get that's not .22lr ($22.70+tax for 100 rounds from Walmart), #4 Trukey shot, 000 buck, Slug, and then everything else.

I use #1 shot because #1 shot is objectively the best defensive shotgun loading. 16-18 pellets with a mean weight of 41 grains, limited over penetration and wider spread means higher likelihood of hitting, less risk of collateral damage, and more likelihood of stopping the target with a single shot.

On another related question. Which of these loadings has consistently made treatment difficult and/or has a higher mortality rate?

No one ever lives from a hit to like 54-63% of total body surface area (using rule of 9s, which is confusing) from a slug.

Plentiful shot like #1 or #2 are often pains in the ass to stabilize. 00 and 000 are obviously effective, and 0 buck is super rare to see. If you can find 0000 buck then bravo I guess because you have found a unicorn, I've not seen a patient hit by it.

[Gallia-]

I remember the rake picture.

It is still exquisite in my mind eye.

e: But mostly because it was a rake wearing a suit tbh.

[Khornatenreich]

I immediately tried to figure out how a military could get away with having a shotgun as the primary service weapon instead of a proper rifle,

Be Sumer.

And what did Sumer do? I'm seriously curious about this now.

[Crookfur]

Be Sumer.

And what did Sumer do? I'm seriously curious about this now.

Sumer's old/sort of current nation setting featured lots of very flat desert hence big tanks and HIFVs. Due to the long sight lines it was death for infantry to dismount thier HIFVs before they reached the enemy lines and had to engage the enemy at extremely close ranges (or something like that, it all sounded really nicely thought out and vaguely plausible at any rate).

Combine this with Sumer having a several month long joygasm from playing with pump shotguns with no disconnect and naturally his IC nation used lots of shotguns...

It's kind of like how you used to be able to tell what was featured in last month's Airforces Monthly by looking at what new aircraft I designed and what new features they had...

[NeuPolska]

I shamelessly stole a template from the internet, kinda abandoned all the intricate details I wanted but that's okay because I really just wanted to play with colors.

DO NOT LOOK AT THE GREEN DUDES. I did not touch their uniforms because I wasn't going to use them. The ones I did fix up are all the grey dudes:

So what do you guys think?

[Fordorsia]

How useful/practical/possible would it be for a 20mm autocannon in mid-late WWII to have shaped charge projectiles available? One problem that may ruin it straight away is how do you make it use the rifling/how delicate is the round.

I know the XM29 had plans for some kind of shaped charge shell, so it seems that at size it's at least possible. But with a full powered autocannon, would the penetration is offers (whatever that might be) be made redundant by a regular AP round? And would it not actually be possible at that velocity before electronic detonators? I know that's the problem they had when changing over to shaped charges in HV tank guns.

[Laritaia]

How practical/possible would it be for a 20mm autocannon in mid-late WWII to have shaped charge projectiles available?

it wouldn't, the materials science just isn't there.
The understanding of the mechanics of shaped charge effects full stop just wasn't amazingly well understood, let alone what would be required to shrink one down to 20mm.

[Taihei Tengoku]

I shamelessly stole a template from the internet, kinda abandoned all the intricate details I wanted but that's okay because I really just wanted to play with colors.

DO NOT LOOK AT THE GREEN DUDES. I did not touch their uniforms because I wasn't going to use them. The ones I did fix up are all the grey dudes:

(Image)

So what do you guys think?

They take their MBAs very seriously.

[Kyrusia]

BAN THIS SICK FILTH

How dare I associated myself with something someone finds offensive
How dare I genuinely hold an opinion that can offend people just like they can me
I better go to the gulag

P.s., fuck your feelings, day of the Rake when?

I didn't realize this had anything to do with infantry discussion? Maybe I'm on the wrong website... Nope. Still NS.

If people want to keep these threads, I suggest they keep them topical and without the content already ruled entirely unacceptable on this site. Just because it was said in another thread, doesn't mean it doesn't apply to all of them. You wanna shitpost? Take it somewhere else. It's on NS? It will be dealt with. Period.

[Taihei Tengoku]

it's 2010 all over again

[Rhodesialund]

12 gauge 00 buck, usually some variation of the low-recoil loads, followed by #7½, which is around here the cheapest ammunition you can get that's not .22lr ($22.70+tax for 100 rounds from Walmart), #4 Trukey shot, 000 buck, Slug, and then everything else.

I use #1 shot because #1 shot is objectively the best defensive shotgun loading. 16-18 pellets with a mean weight of 41 grains, limited over penetration and wider spread means higher likelihood of hitting, less risk of collateral damage, and more likelihood of stopping the target with a single shot.

Cool. I usually find myself going with slugs, specifically Foster slugs instead of the Brenneke-style. Granted this starts delving into the topic of overpenetration which becomes a massive point of contention on whether or not slugs penetrate more/less than (insert number of zeros) buck.

(Keep in mind I'm not taking sides in the argument. Some will penetrate further than others depending upon the material)

No one ever lives from a hit to like 54-63% of total body surface area (using rule of 9s, which is confusing) from a slug.

Plentiful shot like #1 or #2 are often pains in the ass to stabilize. 00 and 000 are obviously effective, and 0 buck is super rare to see. If you can find 0000 buck then bravo I guess because you have found a unicorn, I've not seen a patient hit by it.

I've seen slug wounds from pictures on the internet, it's gruesome and is rather expected from a 430-something grain piece of lead. Just curious about the validation of slugs from a medical professional such as yourself.

[NeuPolska]

I shamelessly stole a template from the internet, kinda abandoned all the intricate details I wanted but that's okay because I really just wanted to play with colors.

DO NOT LOOK AT THE GREEN DUDES. I did not touch their uniforms because I wasn't going to use them. The ones I did fix up are all the grey dudes:

(Image)

So what do you guys think?

They take their MBAs very seriously.

Wut

Srry I don’t get joke

[Fordorsia]

BAN THIS SICK FILTH

How dare I associated myself with something someone finds offensive
How dare I genuinely hold an opinion that can offend people just like they can me
I better go to the gulag

P.s., fuck your feelings, day of the Rake when?

I didn't realize this had anything to do with infantry discussion? Maybe I'm on the wrong website... Nope. Still NS.

If people want to keep these threads, I suggest they keep them topical and without the content already ruled entirely unacceptable on this site. Just because it was said in another thread, doesn't mean it doesn't apply to all of them. You wanna shitpost? Take it somewhere else. It's on NS? It will be dealt with. Period.

These threads always have and always will have banter, despite countless warnings, bans and locks over the years. Going after it now is pointless. That's just a fact.

[NeuPolska]

I didn't realize this had anything to do with infantry discussion? Maybe I'm on the wrong website... Nope. Still NS.

If people want to keep these threads, I suggest they keep them topical and without the content already ruled entirely unacceptable on this site. Just because it was said in another thread, doesn't mean it doesn't apply to all of them. You wanna shitpost? Take it somewhere else. It's on NS? It will be dealt with. Period.

These threads always have and always will have banter, despite countless warnings, bands and locks over the years. Going after it now is pointless. That's just a fact.

Dammit Fword do not get this thread locked

I like it here

[The Akasha Colony]

I didn't realize this had anything to do with infantry discussion? Maybe I'm on the wrong website... Nope. Still NS.

If people want to keep these threads, I suggest they keep them topical and without the content already ruled entirely unacceptable on this site. Just because it was said in another thread, doesn't mean it doesn't apply to all of them. You wanna shitpost? Take it somewhere else. It's on NS? It will be dealt with. Period.

These threads always have and always will have banter, despite countless warnings, bans and locks over the years. Going after it now is pointless. That's just a fact.

Don't poke the mods.

[Fordorsia]

poke poke


Just saying it how it is. You can't just tell a bunch of people to stop doing something that has been normal for over five years years, then expect them to suddenly stop, especially when it's over something said that literally no one cares about. It's extremely naive.