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Infantry Discussion Thread part 11: Gallas Razor edition.

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Puzikas
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Left-Leaning College State

Postby Puzikas » Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:17 pm

Thought I'd give some short term sperg as I am quite bored and as usual after a long shift I have become wide awake upon returning home.

There does not exist a firearm that has a higher chance of achieving a single shot incapacitation on a human target than a shotgun at close range. inside of 10 meters, a 12 gauge shotgun fired to a human target with 00 buck will damage the majority of major soft organs, cause significant soft tissue damage, create multiple wound channels, cause a hypotensive emergency and purely has no equal in terms of single shot power within this envelope.

After a long night in the ED I had just sat down to my computer to answer some emails. I had even pulled up my mobile Teamspeak application to connect with my Spergkin and talk with some former, and some current NSers I am glad to call friends (and one begrudgingly-he IS a Manlet, after all) and some non-NSers. I was looking forward to taking ten minutes to myself.

But no. My phone vibrated suddenly, the same three pulse vibration I get from my hospitals internal memo application. The message popped on my phone.

"Inbound GSW, (my city) ALS Truck 42"

So I went down to the ED and grabbed the headset we use to talk to incoming ambulances. I received the code and patch from the inbound medic who relayed the information to me-Male, late 20s, gunshot wound, Anterior chest, multiple large entrance and several small exit wounds. Blood pressure 148/84, GCS 6, H/R 110, resperatory compromise, 22/Min but maintained via Endotracheal tube with open Pneumothorax currently attempting to resolve. ETA six minutes.

I prepared myself. The trauma nurses and PA, the ED Paramedics and two residents swirrled to trauma receiving as a OR Nurse went and got room C ready for us. My resident for the day looked sick. He had never had a shooting before-this would be his first, and it was a hell of an introduction to shootings. I told him what to expect, and not to take anything I said personally, and if I start speaking Russian to just say English, and I'll correct myself. I told him that the total number of entry and exists would determine our interventions, and that the medic would not be able to supply us with those numbers as he was alone in the back, and if he had tubed the patient, he wasn't going to be rolling him.

The patient arrived after a moment of pregnant silence that makes me wish I never quit smoking. The bay went from silence except the distant sound of the air vents circulation cycle to the distinctive rattling of the stretcher and my head trauma nurse Noah's distinctive Bostonian accent issuing orders. The patients tube was in place, resperstions were being maintained, and plasma was being shunted.

I looked him over. A perfect candidate for surgery. Vitals in tollerances limits. Serious intervention needed to stabilize. If stabilized no major long term effects likely. Excellent.

Prepped and ready we wished our human ballistic gel off. Imaging gave me the story I was expecting and my once over told me I was dealing with a 12 gauge GSW with buckshot-I never see anything but 00 buck, slug or #7½ bird, and this was obviously buck.

My resident, pale as a ghost still beneith his PPE and gloved hands trembling at the thought of stabilizing such a serious set of injuries, nodded to me as I began my task as a human butcher, cutting, pasting, and stitching holes and perforations of the thoracic cavity, as the repertory specialist, ORN, Anesthesiologist and other cogs of the machine that is the modern surgical theater said words I didn't care much for, numbers I didn't pay attention to, and had conversations I didn't listen to. Unless I hear them say my name, my ears are shut or tuned to the music playing through the speakers that every OR has-the most important of the creature comforts besides climate control for most OR staff, and the reason why theatre C is so coveted.

My patient was not in good shape. A low BF% and unpalatable radial pulse, JVD I could have spotted across the room, track marks and lips that had been chewed to hell tell me a opioid derived swan song that has become my home cities biggest hit since 2012. This isnt a new story, and it's not even one that adds a new twist.
This is Friday night.

The drug life did no favours when the ire of someone welding a 12 gauge came down upon my patient. The wounds were spread out so as the entirety of the forgot was hit-our lowest verifiable entry wound was only just superior to the ischial tuberosity, and our highest struck 5cm above the nipple. This patient was what I would describe, in a less clinical environment, as "up shit creak without a paddle".

After getting to a position I felt my resident couldn't fuck up, I began to instruct him in the importance of what I was doing, how to do it, and what to do if it doesn't work. I explained carefully the details of controlling major bleeds in the arteries and remarked how good the body is at helping itself-all you need to do sometimes is give it a hand. I allowed him to extract a shot pellet that was in the way, and had him close a wound.

The patient was lucky. The pellets had struck many things, but the heart and major vessels were not one of them. The surplus of blood in the pelvis was not surprising to me, but came as a shock to my poor resident, who had no idea that a quarter liter of blood could look like *that*.

After three hours and several dozen stitches, clamping and suturing, swearing and some tough and go operations, we washed our hands and headed to get dinner.

Over a plate of what passes for baked Ziti and chicken marsala at a Hospital employee canteen, I discussed in great detail the mechanism of gunshot wounds to my resident, who had never seen a gun in person, who had only a passing understanding of what the difference between a shotgun, pistol, and rifle were, and had absolutely no idea that calibers of rifles even really existed. I explained to him, in the same detail and then some that I might go into here, the fundamentals of ballistic trauma and the management of these injuries in a hospital and field setting, and the complications one can expect. I explained the dynamics of hydrostatic shock and fluid disruption to him, and detailed how to best close a yaw injury as opposed to a fragmentation injury, and explained that never stitching a puncture wound is not the same as a gunshot wound even though they are both a puncture.

He confessed total ignorance of gunshot wounds. He doesn't even want to be a trauma surgeon, he just picked my rotation first because he heard I was "incredibly difficult" to work with, and he wanted to get it over first.
This didn't hurt me. I am intentionally difficult to work with because I do not accept failure in an environment where failure means death. And this was an exact example of it. If the shooter had been lower or higher in either direction just a bit, the patient could have required three or four more other hands on deck to keep him stable. A little to the left or right, a few inches forward, and I might have spent the next hour or two doing E-Mails hear about a GSW from my friend over at the state medical examination office on Monday afternoon.

There was no human being who would have walked away from that. There is no medic, BLS, ILS, ALS, or TALS, Airborne or otherwise, who would have been able to stabilize that patient for more than 30 minutes, and at no point from the medics arrival on scene to the point I finished with the patient did that patient wake up. There was not a single individual person who would have been able to stabilize them. That patient needed, in total, nine direct actors and 22 total persons to intermittently stabilize, transport, reduce to critical condition, prepare, and repair this patient, who will walk with a gait and have breathing issues for the rest of their natural lifespan.

And this is the case with virtually all shotgun injuries. Shotguns are the undisputed close quarter kings. There is simply nothing, on an individual basis, that can hope to compare to the pure deviation a shotgun brings to an individual target in one shot from a man portable package.
Last edited by Puzikas on Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Usually waiting for Puz ;-;

Goodbye.

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Sevvania
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Postby Sevvania » Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:41 pm

I feel like I get smarter when you do words good.
"Humble thyself and hold thy tongue."

Current Era: 1945
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Puzikas
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Postby Puzikas » Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:42 pm

Thank
Sevvania wrote:I don't post much, but I am always here.
Usually waiting for Puz ;-;

Goodbye.

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Theodosiya
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Postby Theodosiya » Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:49 pm

Thx for the info, Puz. Justification to give a MASS to one guy per fireteam.
The strong rules over the weak
And the weak are ruled by the strong
It is the natural order

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Sevvania
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Postby Sevvania » Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:52 pm

Theodosiya wrote:a MASS to one guy per fireteam.

I immediately tried to figure out how a military could get away with having a shotgun as the primary service weapon instead of a proper rifle, but the reduced effective range (and increased recoil when using slugs) would be kinda problematic. Maybe if there were plenty of MGs to pick up the slack.

Edit: But then I guess there's still the issue of only being able to carry like fifty rounds on your person.
Last edited by Sevvania on Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Humble thyself and hold thy tongue."

Current Era: 1945
NationStates Stat Card - Sevvania
OFFICIAL FACTBOOK - Sevvania
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Gallia-
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Postby Gallia- » Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:52 pm

Sevvania wrote:
Theodosiya wrote:a MASS to one guy per fireteam.

I immediately tried to figure out how a military could get away with having a shotgun as the primary service weapon instead of a proper rifle,


Be Sumer.

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Theodosiya
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Postby Theodosiya » Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:54 pm

With a MASS, one could bring an AR, with shotgun attached.
The strong rules over the weak
And the weak are ruled by the strong
It is the natural order


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NeuPolska
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Postby NeuPolska » Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:58 pm

You don’t need shotgun if you have bayonet

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Theodosiya
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Postby Theodosiya » Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:12 pm

If I could be bothered to do a Individual Load Bearing, Armor and Weapon, Bayonet definitely is in there. Knife-Bayonet instead of pure bayonet or pure knife. And every soldiers/marines/airmen will have training for them.

Gallia- wrote:Or you could just bring an AR.

And not have a shotgun.

:O


I looked at Puz post. And that's my justification for MASS.

M16A3/HK 416 '20 with HHS/ACOG, foregrip/MASS/M320, ATPIAL and bayonet all the way...
The strong rules over the weak
And the weak are ruled by the strong
It is the natural order

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Puzikas
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Postby Puzikas » Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:19 pm

I wasn't advocating for shotguns or anything

I was just saying "hey here's how the shotgun do"
Sevvania wrote:I don't post much, but I am always here.
Usually waiting for Puz ;-;

Goodbye.

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Theodosiya
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Postby Theodosiya » Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:21 pm

Puzikas wrote:I wasn't advocating for shotguns or anything

I was just saying "hey here's how the shotgun do"

What the shotgun did was my justification. Especially for Assault Pioneers...
The strong rules over the weak
And the weak are ruled by the strong
It is the natural order

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NeuPolska
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Postby NeuPolska » Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:43 pm

What if...

You attached a bayonet to a shotgun :eek:

Please, call me POLSKA
U.S. Army Enlisted
Kar-Esseria wrote:Who is that and are they female because if not then they can go make love to their hand.
Impaled Nazarene wrote:Go home Polska wins NS.
United Mongol Hordes wrote:Polska isn't exactly the nicest guy in the world
Impaled Nazarene wrote:Hurd you miss the point more than Polska misses Poland.
Rhodesialund wrote:when you have Charlie ten feet away or something operating operationally.
Nirvash Type TheEND wrote:Gayla is living in 1985 but these guys are already in 1916

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Theodosiya
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Postby Theodosiya » Mon Nov 06, 2017 12:04 am

NeuPolska wrote:What if...

You attached a bayonet to a shotgun :eek:


No need for full shotgun, when you could attach it to AR...
The strong rules over the weak
And the weak are ruled by the strong
It is the natural order

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Free-Don
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Postby Free-Don » Mon Nov 06, 2017 12:48 am

I think I'm gonna issue out shotguns like I issue pistols, smgs, pdws, etc.

Officers, Truck drivers, Boaters, etc. can choose to purchase a one of the above listed weapons as a replacement to having nothing at all.

Artillery guys, Police, Firefighters, on base staff, etc. can choose to purchase these to serve alongside pistols and the occasional carbine because most don't get a service rifle.


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Theodosiya
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Postby Theodosiya » Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:15 am

Gallia- wrote:
Theodosiya wrote:
No need for full shotgun,


Yes there is.

MASS is the worst shotgun in the universe.

Why?
The strong rules over the weak
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Husseinarti
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Postby Husseinarti » Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:17 am

US Army issues 18 shotguns to their infantry companies.
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Purpelia
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Postby Purpelia » Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:26 am

How bad would a 25mm shotgun be to fire?
Purpelia does not reflect my actual world views. In fact, the vast majority of Purpelian cannon is meant to shock and thus deliberately insane. I just like playing with the idea of a country of madmen utterly convinced that everyone else are the barbarians. So play along or not but don't ever think it's for real.



The above post contains hyperbole, metaphoric language, embellishment and exaggeration. It may also include badly translated figures of speech and misused idioms. Analyze accordingly.


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Crookfur
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Postby Crookfur » Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:49 am

Purpelia wrote:How bad would a 25mm shotgun be to fire?

https://www.reddit.com/r/gifs/comments/ ... e_shotgun/

Really it depends on how you load it. I suppose you could use a sabot cup or short cartridges with lots of waddling to fire something closer to 12 gauge loads but that would seem to be a bit of a waste unless the gun had some primary function that isn't simply throwing shot. See Ks-23 and 40mm buckshot.
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Purpelia
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Postby Purpelia » Mon Nov 06, 2017 4:10 am

Crookfur wrote:
Purpelia wrote:How bad would a 25mm shotgun be to fire?

https://www.reddit.com/r/gifs/comments/ ... e_shotgun/

Really it depends on how you load it. I suppose you could use a sabot cup or short cartridges with lots of waddling to fire something closer to 12 gauge loads but that would seem to be a bit of a waste unless the gun had some primary function that isn't simply throwing shot. See Ks-23 and 40mm buckshot.

Basically my thought is on shotgun shells for an XM-25 like device so that the weapon can double up as the squad automatic shotgun.
Like, I really like the idea of having an XM-25 like weapon for long range grenade throwing but also having an auto shotgun for murdering everyone inside a building and I figure I could combine the two into a novelty weapon that would look nice, show up in a few arms expos and than newer appear in the field since that's how cool weapons always end up.
Last edited by Purpelia on Mon Nov 06, 2017 4:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
Purpelia does not reflect my actual world views. In fact, the vast majority of Purpelian cannon is meant to shock and thus deliberately insane. I just like playing with the idea of a country of madmen utterly convinced that everyone else are the barbarians. So play along or not but don't ever think it's for real.



The above post contains hyperbole, metaphoric language, embellishment and exaggeration. It may also include badly translated figures of speech and misused idioms. Analyze accordingly.

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Crookfur
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Postby Crookfur » Mon Nov 06, 2017 4:22 am

Purpelia wrote:
Crookfur wrote:https://www.reddit.com/r/gifs/comments/ ... e_shotgun/

Really it depends on how you load it. I suppose you could use a sabot cup or short cartridges with lots of waddling to fire something closer to 12 gauge loads but that would seem to be a bit of a waste unless the gun had some primary function that isn't simply throwing shot. See Ks-23 and 40mm buckshot.

Basically my thought is on shotgun shells for an XM-25 like device so that the weapon can double up as the squad automatic shotgun.
Like, I really like the idea of having an XM-25 like weapon for long range grenade throwing but also having an auto shotgun for murdering everyone inside a building and I figure I could combine the two into a novelty weapon that would look nice, show up in a few arms expos and than newer appear in the field since that's how cool weapons always end up.

That's fine and might work.

It's not particularly novel, just about everyone who has played with 20-30mm GLs concepts has also played with defensive shot loads as an option.
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Dostanuot Loj
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Postby Dostanuot Loj » Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:07 am

Puzikas wrote:Snip


My wife is getting ready to do a clinical placement in a rural hospital ED in hunting season, so I passed this off to her to read.
Some of your descriptions of the non-gun people and that resident's decision to go with you match her classmates pretty well too. Lols.
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Cosparia
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Postby Cosparia » Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:28 am

Theodosiya wrote:
Puzikas wrote:I wasn't advocating for shotguns or anything

I was just saying "hey here's how the shotgun do"

What the shotgun did was my justification. Especially for Assault Pioneers...

Keep in mind that, unless you're packing flechette shells, shotguns become useless against hostiles wearing body armor. Part of the reason why I'm giving my assault engineers & similar types M653 and XM177-type carbines.

Although, an assault squad armed entirely with AA-12s does sound appealing...
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