Infantry Discussion Thread part 11: Gallas Razor edition.

[Vassenor]

How often do soldiers die in accidents that happen from improper use of their own firearms, grenades and other gear?

Negligent Discharge is more common than you think.

[Gallia-]

How often do soldiers die in accidents that happen from improper use of their own firearms, grenades and other gear?

In the US it's something like 1 or 2 every year, on average.

How often do soldiers die in accidents that happen from improper use of their own firearms, grenades and other gear?

Negligent Discharge is more common than you think.

He means suicide.

Accidental ND death is far less common than people just blowing their brains out with an M16 or whatever.

[Cosparia]

How often do soldiers die in accidents that happen from improper use of their own firearms, grenades and other gear?

Negligent Discharge is more common than you think.

Especially with open-bolt submachine guns. Carrying a loaded mag in your MP-40 or Sten with the bolt forward was a good way to get shot by your own gun if you weren't careful.

Also, does anybody have any idea what this pouch would be used for?

According to the store, it's an ammo pouch; the vertical stitching on the back gives me the impression that it's designed to carry submachine gun magazines, but there's no side-view photos, so I'm more-or-less in the dark about its true purpose.

[NeuPolska]

Better and cheaper than wearing glasses

Really? Can I go to basic with contacts?

[Gallia-]

Better and cheaper than wearing glasses

Really? Can I go to basic with contacts?

Yes but you get these in return:



e: But I am a sucker for any meganekko so those glasses might be overly cute tbh.

[Fordorsia]

Negligent Discharge is more common than you think.

Especially with open-bolt submachine guns. Carrying a loaded mag in your MP-40 or Sten with the bolt forward was a good way to get shot by your own gun if you weren't careful.

You can't have an open bolt gun with a round in the chamber and the bolt forward. Open bolts are perfectly safe to carry around because they usually have practically indestructible safeties.

[Purpelia]

Especially with open-bolt submachine guns. Carrying a loaded mag in your MP-40 or Sten with the bolt forward was a good way to get shot by your own gun if you weren't careful.

You can't have an open bolt gun with a round in the chamber and the bolt forward. Open bolts are perfectly safe to carry around because they usually have practically indestructible safeties.

No they really don't. Most open bolt guns actually have rather bad safeties on account of the fact that the safety is most of the time just a notch that locks the bolt back in the open and ready to fire position. And the bad part about it is that if the safety lever AKA the bolt handle gets caught on something and pulled out of alignment the gun instantly fires full auto until it runs dry. And if you keep it bolt forward and unloaded it ain't much better because it can still snag on things and get pulled back just enough to start it firing.

This was so bad that the Germans actually introduced a special extra safety thing on the MP 40. Like seriously. Don't you watch gun jesus?

[Cosparia]

Especially with open-bolt submachine guns. Carrying a loaded mag in your MP-40 or Sten with the bolt forward was a good way to get shot by your own gun if you weren't careful.

You can't have an open bolt gun with a round in the chamber and the bolt forward. Open bolts are perfectly safe to carry around because they usually have practically indestructible safeties.

I was referring to the practice of closing the bolt on the empty chamber, then inserting the magazine. That way, all the soldier would need to do was just yank the bolt back and he's ready to send hate downrange. Of course, there were instances where soldiers (usually tank crewmen) did just that, and the charging handle would catch on something, pulling the bolt back just far enough to clear the magazine, but not far enough to catch the sear. Then when the handle was released, it would fly forward, strip a round from the mag, and BANG--something or someone would find a new hole in them.

the gun instantly fires full auto until it runs dry.

Actually no, it wouldn't go until empty--the bolt would catch on the sear after the first shot (unless you had a Sputter Gun or a particularly shoddy weapon).

[Fordorsia]

A notch in the receiver is more than adequate. The bolt handle isn't going anywhere with that spring pushing it forward into the notch unless you purposely remove it.

And the bad part about it is that if the safety lever AKA the bolt handle gets caught on something and pulled out of alignment the gun instantly fires full auto until it runs dry.

Yeah because triggers doesn't real.

I was referring to the practice of closing the bolt on the empty chamber, then inserting the magazine. That way, all the soldier would need to do was just yank the bolt back and he's ready to send hate downrange. Of course, there were instances where soldiers (usually tank crewmen) did just that, and the charging handle would catch on something, pulling the bolt back just far enough to clear the magazine, but not far enough to catch the sear. Then when the handle was released, it would fly forward, strip a round from the mag, and BANG--something or someone would find a new hole in them.

Someone stupid enough to do that would manage to do the same with a closed bolt gun

[Cosparia]

I was referring to the practice of closing the bolt on the empty chamber, then inserting the magazine. That way, all the soldier would need to do was just yank the bolt back and he's ready to send hate downrange. Of course, there were instances where soldiers (usually tank crewmen) did just that, and the charging handle would catch on something, pulling the bolt back just far enough to clear the magazine, but not far enough to catch the sear. Then when the handle was released, it would fly forward, strip a round from the mag, and BANG--something or someone would find a new hole in them.

Someone stupid enough to do that would manage to do the same with a closed bolt gun

Closed-bolt and open-bolt SMGs have completely different internal operation. An MP5 or similar simply isn't prone to the type of accidents that the MP40 was.

[Fordorsia]

Someone stupid enough to do that would manage to do the same with a closed bolt gun

Closed-bolt and open-bolt SMGs have completely different internal operation. An MP5 or similar simply isn't prone to the type of accidents that the MP40 was.

Not being prone to having the same kind of fuck up doesn't make a gun any safer, especially since the vast majority of accidental discharges are from the shooter just pulling the trigger with the safety off and a round chambered, even if they were "just cleaning it". In fact open bolts are probably more safe because it's a lot harder to forget to have the safety on and you can actually see in the chamber.

[Purpelia]

Yeah because triggers doesn't real.

Yes. The trigger is in fact NOT a factor in that situation because the bolt can be pulled back far enough to go past the magazine and pick up a round but yet not be far enough to catch on the trigger resulting in a catastrophic accident. That's what happens when your sear is behind the magazine and yet your gun fires on closing.

Seriously, just go watch the video on the MP 40.

[Fordorsia]

Yes. The trigger is in fact NOT a factor in that situation because the bolt can be pulled back far enough to go past the magazine and pick up a round but yet not be far enough to catch on the trigger resulting in a catastrophic accident. That's what happens when your sear is behind the magazine and yet your gun fires on closing.

And the bad part about it is that if the safety lever AKA the bolt handle gets caught on something and pulled out of alignment the gun instantly fires full auto until it runs dry.

As I already explained, someone stupid enough to pull the bolt back halfway would manage to negligently discharge a closed bolt gun. But you're talking about two different things, or nothing, I don't know.

You're just describing one rare way someone would shoot an open bolt gun without wanting to, when that's not even the discussion. The discussion is over the safety, which when disengaged, the bolt is still stopped by the trigger. There's no shooting just because the safety is off, and there certainly isn't any full auto because, you know, the bolt would cycle back and get stopped by the trigger.

[Purpelia]

As I already explained, someone stupid enough to pull the bolt back halfway would manage to negligently discharge a closed bolt gun. But you're talking about two different things, or nothing, I don't know.

The thing you do not seem to understand is that this is something that can happen by accident in all manner of situations that do not involve stupidity. This includes but is not limited to entering or exiting vehicles, the thing falling or snagging on something and just generally not constantly keeping your eye on it when doing stuff.

You're just describing one rare way someone would shoot an open bolt gun without wanting to, when that's not even the discussion. The discussion is over the safety, which when disengaged, the bolt is still stopped by the trigger. There's no shooting just because the safety is off, and there certainly isn't any full auto because, you know, the bolt would cycle back and get stopped by the trigger.

The discussion is, as sparked by me so I should bloody know what it's about, asking how many soldiers hurt or kill them self by firearms related mishaps. So this definitively counts.

[Fordorsia]

The thing you do not seem to understand is that this is something that can happen by accident in all manner of situations that do not involve stupidity. This includes but is not limited to entering or exiting vehicles, the thing falling or snagging on something and just generally not constantly keeping your eye on it when doing stuff.

Why is someone carrying their gun around without the safety on? That's how negligent discharges happen, not from the bolt being pulled back halfway.

The discussion is, as sparked by me so I should bloody know what it's about, asking how many soldiers hurt or kill them self by firearms related mishaps. So this definitively counts.

Mishaps happen more with open bolts because "dumb reason"

That's impossible and open bolt safeties are safe

No they're not you can accidentally hit them or whatever and it will make the gun go full auto or something

[Kassaran]

We had quite a few gun-related suicides back at BCT last year, and that was just Ft. Jackson, notoriously known as "relaxin' Jackson".

It's more common then you all think...

[Austrasien]

Suicide is not an accident though. It is not really the same thing.

[Gallia-]

"Improper use of their own rifles" seemed like a euphemism, TBF.

Between '77 and '01, suicide was about 55% of basic training deaths, unintentional injury (not just guns/bombs, but alcohol, falls, electricity, asthma, etc.) was ~40%, and the remainder was homicide. This is for the Army and Marines. Neither the Air Force nor Navy had any homicides during the period that were recorded, in the Navy it was 2/3rds suicide and 1/3rd unintentional injury, and in the Air Force it was all suicide. The number of cases is 276, of which 30% were traumatic (i.e. the above) and the rest were non-traumatic deaths, like sudden heart attacks and mega-flus.

So the overall rate of suicides is very low and probably well into diminishing returns, but that's because the US military has a strong safety culture.

[Purpelia]

Why is someone carrying their gun around without the safety on? That's how negligent discharges happen, not from the bolt being pulled back halfway.

Because he was being a ford and thought it'd be safer to close the bolt on an empty chamber, as you suggest.

[Sevvania]

A notch in the receiver is more than adequate. The bolt handle isn't going anywhere with that spring pushing it forward into the notch unless you purposely remove it.

And the bad part about it is that if the safety lever AKA the bolt handle gets caught on something and pulled out of alignment the gun instantly fires full auto until it runs dry.

Yeah because triggers doesn't real.

This is supposedly a thing that happened with SKS rifles that had free-floating firing pins.

[Purpelia]

As I said and will reiterate. It was enough of a problem in the MP40 to be recognized and explicitly addressed with a change in design mid full scale war.

[Fordorsia]

Why is someone carrying their gun around without the safety on? That's how negligent discharges happen, not from the bolt being pulled back halfway.

Because he was being a ford and thought it'd be safer to close the bolt on an empty chamber, as you suggest.

No, what I suggest is pulling the bolt back and putting it on safe if you don't plan on using it anytime soon, like you're supposed to. I'd like to see reports of soldiers having their open bolt gun go off because of pulling the bolt back half way then letting go. Why do you think soldiers were trained to pull the bolt back before putting a magazine in?

[Purpelia]

Because he was being a ford and thought it'd be safer to close the bolt on an empty chamber, as you suggest.

No, what I suggest is pulling the bolt back and putting it on safe if you don't plan on using it anytime soon, like you're supposed to. I'd like to see reports of soldiers having their open bolt gun go off because of pulling the bolt back half way then letting go. Why do you think soldiers were trained to pull the bolt back before putting a magazine in?

God you are dense. It happens by accident because of the way the mechanism is designed. End of story.

The fact you are unable or unwilling to accept this does not make it not true.

[Fordorsia]

Being able to happen doesn't mean it happens. It's like saying lots of people eat bricks because it's possible to eat bricks.

Show me evidence of how many times soldiers did this.

[Gallia-]

evidence shown