Military Ground Vehicles of Your Nation Mk X

[The Soodean Imperium]

Personally I'm not sure where "76mm" and "side armor" is coming from because these words don't appear anywhere in there and Ford's quote has no link. Maybe it's a reference to a reply to the original post, which I didn't follow the link to?

That was a question asked in the FB post's comments and a reply from the FB page to that question

Okay yeah. In that case the statement Ford quoted (and Gallia responded to) is correct. But the statement SPA 501 quoted (and Gallia didn't respond to) is IQ damaging toxicity.

[Fordorsia]

Well after all this talk I'm fine with believing it's perfectly possible. I thought its hull had space armour all round. Abram's ass is a shit

However I will never believe that that fellow on that FB page has any idea what he's talking about. Probably heard that fact somewhere else and is trying his best to go in depth explaining it and failing hard. He probably thinks it means the Tiger II is better than the Abrams. I know some people do...

[Dostanuot Loj]

It may come from the fact rhat American crews deployed to the former Yugoslavia were specifically briefed in the threat posed by old German 81mm guns still in use there.

I love how fanfiction.net is used as a source for one of the comments though.

[The Soodean Imperium]

Well after all this talk I'm fine with believing it's perfectly possible. I thought its hull had space armour all round. Abram's ass is a shit

However I will never believe that that fellow on that FB page has any idea what he's talking about. Probably heard that fact somewhere else and is trying his best to go in depth explaining it and failing hard. He probably thinks it means the Tiger II is better than the Abrams. I know some people do...

A stopped clock is still right twice a day. Even if the original account is utterly ignorant about the composition of composite armor he is still not incorrect in saying that there are side and rear areas with only RHA that APCBC can potentially get through.

It may come from the fact rhat American crews deployed to the former Yugoslavia were specifically briefed in the threat posed by old German 81mm guns still in use there.

And this is where I was getting with the "X can potentially kill Y, and should not be dismissed as irrelevant" does not equal "X is an effective choice for combating Y [and you can use it as the backbone of your NS army]."

Didn't we have a poster come through here a few years ago who crewed a US tank in Yugoslavia, and said something about being briefed on the threat of old anti-armor ammunition?

[Federated Kingdom of Prussia]

Okay, if you were a tank gunner with knowledge of modern tanks, a WWII-era gun with unlimited ammo, and the target you were shooting at was entirely in-crewed and thus not fighting back, you could be able to get a mobility kill on an Abrams from point-blank range on the rear. Thus proving nothing in actual combat scenarios.

"If you are a minimally trained to competence anti-tank gunner with a WW2 gun, you could kill modern tanks. Thus proving nothing in actual combat scenarios."

I made your statement more concise to point out how wrong it is. Good job Frod.

My favourite part is that "SPA 501" is talking like he is going to be an omniscient narrator who is totally detached from the situation when the reality is more like he is more than likely going to be one of the crew in the tank that is hit and experience a personal-emotional apocalypse as a result. Because that's usually what happens when these things happen, just read any one of a dozen Desert Storm friendly fire incidents or interviews and you realize pretty quick what a hit by a penetrating munition would look like.

I'm not trying to bend the truth, I'm presenting it as best I understand, and I like to believe that when people call me out on being wrong on subjects(which admittedly it a lot of the time) I'm perfectly willing to amend my beliefs, especially when it's coming from people smarter in these subjects than myself like you or Sumer. I didn't believe WWII guns had the power to do more than damage the outside parts of modern tanks; I was wrong.

snip

Sorry, here's the link to the original FB post. There's a lot of discussion in the comments, which is where the point about 76mm hitting the Abrams' side was brought up.

These are claims at very different levels

There is only one level being discussed: "X can penetrate Y from a particular angle because Z". It's actually quite specific. I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that the discussion was about anything else. Perhaps from the same mythical place that SPA 502 thinks he's speaking from when it's quite clear that I'm not actually talking about the wall of text I didn't read.

Furthermore, I'm not even entirely sure that your claims of multiple levels being stated is actually true. That seems to be more an implicit reading by yourself than anything actually stated so far, unless the wall of text is making multiple claims of that nature or something. No one here has done anything of the sort.

Ford's quotes and statement were correct and wrong, respectively.

So far the discussion since Ford's statement has been centered around that, unless SPA 502 and myself have been talking past each other or something.

For what it's worth, the quoted post was specifically asserting that 88mm APCBC

No, it wasn't. It was saying that 76mm APCBC could "probably not" penetrate, except "maybe at the side armour". Not 88mm. Hardly an assertion.

I'm not sure where this got reduced to the more minimal claim that there are areas of an M1 (specifically, side and rear areas which lack composite armor) that APCBC can penetrate.

Then you haven't read anything of this conversation? It's pretty obvious where it came from I'd think. It was literally two posts after the wall of text. IDK if you're reading me not quoting Ford as referring to an apparently "main idea" of topic or something, but when I don't quote things it's usually because I'm speaking to the post above mine.

You're talking about an entirely different conversation, TBH.

e: Only Technocratic Syndicalists and SPA 502 seem to think the conversation has anything to do with 88mms or Special Armor but they seem to be having a separate conversation, since SPA 502 is addressing my statements in parallel. Ford gets it, and I've never quoted "88mm" once in any of my posts so far.

e2: I mentioned the JNA 88mms, that appears to have been purely coincidental since the JNA had 88mm guns until its collapse and had Milosevic fought Task Force Eagle and the British, we could have seen what an 88mm gun can do to a 1st Armored Division M1 or a M2 with decent ammunition: in this case, American T30E16 HVAP projectiles loaded into 88mm cases. The Serbs weren't Iraqis, after all. They were quite competent, which is possibly why they might have also surrendered en masse.

I'm starting to believe Gallia speaks the same language as everyone else here but apparently I don't. It's not the first time I've entirely misunderstood the point.

I'm a person who deals best when handled bluntly. Subtlety doesn't work very well.

Make yourself clearer! It seems a lot of us aren't on the same level of sperg.

[Federated Kingdom of Prussia]

I'm trying to get at the apparently poor understanding of the admin of that FB page, as evidenced by one of their comments underneath the post for those who didn't click on it:

For those who think that its impossible for APCBC to penetrate composite armor.

Here's the thing, I based this conclusion on the fact that in the Gulf War an Iraqui T-55 APDS with a maraging steel core was able to partially penetrate the Chobham Armor of an M1 Abrams in close range.
And in another incident, an Iraqui Asad Babil T-72 using 3BM-17 soft steel training APFSDS was also able to partially penetrate through the M1 Abram's Chobham Armor within 800 meters.

Now if these lightweight penetrators made of "inferior metals" were able to pierce the M1 Abrams Chobham Armor, why would it be impossible for a 10 kilogram APCBC shell to penetrate the M1 Abrams Chobham Armor?

Im not saying that an APCBC shell would go right through it easily but rather get stuck inside it.

The APCBC's armor piercing core could also be changed into Tungsten or Depleted Uranium to improve its performance.

The A-10's GAU-8 rotary cannon already uses 30mm DU APCBC shells and they already prove to be very effective at penetrating composite armor but cant go right through due to its smaller mass and easily loses its kinetic energy.

Tell me this is wrong. 70 year old weapons might still have noticeable effects but tell me I'm not wrong in disputing these points. Right?

[Gallia-]

Well after all this talk I'm fine with believing it's perfectly possible. I thought its hull had space armour all round.

It does. For the most part, anyway. The engine rear isn't spaced because it isn't really armoured. The side skirts are as thick as Panzer III J's front plate and much, much harder on account of using IRHA rather than ancient '40s steels. The hull is as thick as the side skirts but probably softer steel because it's the hull.

I'm not trying to bend the truth, I'm presenting it as best I understand, and I like to believe that when people call me out on being wrong on subjects(which admittedly it a lot of the time) I'm perfectly willing to amend my beliefs, especially when it's coming from people smarter in these subjects than myself like you or Sumer. I didn't believe WWII guns had the power to do more than damage the outside parts of modern tanks; I was wrong.

If a person is using a WW2 gun on a modern tank, it follows that he would understand what he is aiming at is a tank, where he should be aiming to damage that tank, and that he has the best/last ammunition developed for that gun available to use, if not superior. Anyone who actually has the capacity to employ WW2 tank guns would probably be at least reasonable competent in using them, Arabs aside. So just...ignore D-10Ts and ISIS and Houthis trolling the Saudis in the former's T-34s. Last people to actually have infrastructure to use WW2 guns against tanks, and not just pick them up out of the sand in their post-apocalyptic death world (global warming did the Sahara), was Serbs.

Also ignore time travel "hypotheticals".

snip

Sorry, here's the link to the original FB post. There's a lot of discussion in the comments, which is where the point about 76mm hitting the Abrams' side was brought up.

There is only one level being discussed: "X can penetrate Y from a particular angle because Z". It's actually quite specific. I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that the discussion was about anything else. Perhaps from the same mythical place that SPA 502 thinks he's speaking from when it's quite clear that I'm not actually talking about the wall of text I didn't read.

Furthermore, I'm not even entirely sure that your claims of multiple levels being stated is actually true. That seems to be more an implicit reading by yourself than anything actually stated so far, unless the wall of text is making multiple claims of that nature or something. No one here has done anything of the sort.

Ford's quotes and statement were correct and wrong, respectively.

So far the discussion since Ford's statement has been centered around that, unless SPA 502 and myself have been talking past each other or something.



No, it wasn't. It was saying that 76mm APCBC could "probably not" penetrate, except "maybe at the side armour". Not 88mm. Hardly an assertion.



Then you haven't read anything of this conversation? It's pretty obvious where it came from I'd think. It was literally two posts after the wall of text. IDK if you're reading me not quoting Ford as referring to an apparently "main idea" of topic or something, but when I don't quote things it's usually because I'm speaking to the post above mine.

You're talking about an entirely different conversation, TBH.

e: Only Technocratic Syndicalists and SPA 502 seem to think the conversation has anything to do with 88mms or Special Armor but they seem to be having a separate conversation, since SPA 502 is addressing my statements in parallel. Ford gets it, and I've never quoted "88mm" once in any of my posts so far.

e2: I mentioned the JNA 88mms, that appears to have been purely coincidental since the JNA had 88mm guns until its collapse and had Milosevic fought Task Force Eagle and the British, we could have seen what an 88mm gun can do to a 1st Armored Division M1 or a M2 with decent ammunition: in this case, American T30E16 HVAP projectiles loaded into 88mm cases. The Serbs weren't Iraqis, after all. They were quite competent, which is possibly why they might have also surrendered en masse.

I'm starting to believe Gallia speaks the same language as everyone else here but apparently I don't. It's not the first time I've entirely misunderstood the point.

I'd suspect it was just parallel conversations TBH.

I'm a person who deals best when handled bluntly. Subtlety doesn't work very well.

Make yourself clearer! It seems a lot of us aren't on the same level of sperg.

This doesn't really require sperg.

You thought I was talking about the wall of text you quoted and I wasn't, although I never actually said that because I assumed that was obvious from the context, since I never mentioned said wall of text.

Tell me this is wrong. 70 year old weapons might still have noticeable effects but tell me I'm not wrong in disputing these points. Right?

In the news today: Rubbish bin partially penetrates composite armour!

You can tell how badass the Special Armor skirts are by the fact that the steel skirts have been UTTERLY SHREDDED by what is presumably splinters or something. It turns out that a few mm of air gap really helps soften impacts and make the steel that much more elastic.



Another Rubbish Bin Wonder. This time on the side armour.

[Fordorsia]

The engine rear isn't spaced

Space armour, not spaced armour, ya dip

[Gallia-]

It's disco armor, actually.

Space armor is twenty years earlier.

[Fordorsia]

But mister I already know how to fight!

[Gallia-]

Let the handsome American accent tell you all about the AYE TEE TWO Swahters of the Soviets and their ahl-lies.

[Fordorsia]

Art Alphin is the only voice for me

[Gallia-]

Art Alphin is the only voice for me

This man has a wholesome, salt-of-the-Earth, Midwestern accent, much like everysperg's favourite LTC (besides LTC A[xel?] Always).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WttpWwcSjy4

[Theodosiya]

Would it be possible to develop an armor kit that could be used on Leopard 2A7+ and Enhanced T-84 Yatagan? Let's say frontally the have 1500mm against HEAT and whatever against APFSDS.

Enhanced Yatagan with L/55 and western electronics, powerpack and optics.

[Fordorsia]

gunships! \o/ \o/ \o/

[Ardavia]

scrapped and redid the hull and turret because after some deliberation I decided I didn't like them

we boxtank now

[Federated Kingdom of Prussia]

Panther did the buttsecks with T-55??

[Fordorsia]

mmm ur exhaust is so tight

[Fordorsia]

105 box makes all scared

[Purpelia]

The one on the right has massive shot traps as well as areas where, due to the triangular shape of the turret, the armor is going to be very thin indeed. It also looks much better.

[Fordorsia]

The one on the right has massive shot traps as well as areas where, due to the triangular shape of the turret, the armor is going to be very thin indeed. It also looks much better.

The spaced armour is only 30mm so it's not really going to be deflecting much. Just meant to disrupt shaped charges and make solid shot tumble and shit I dunno. I doubt it's much of a shot trap.

[Purpelia]

The one on the right has massive shot traps as well as areas where, due to the triangular shape of the turret, the armor is going to be very thin indeed. It also looks much better.

The spaced armour is only 30mm so it's not really going to be deflecting much. Just meant to disrupt shaped charges and make solid shot tumble and shit I dunno. I doubt it's much of a shot trap.

I am not sure what era this is for. And shot traps aren't really too much a thing in the modern day. But this thing is out there far enough that I'd love to throw a hand grenade at the turret and watch it glide down the chute to the turret ring...

[Fordorsia]

I am not sure what era this is for.

Like very late-WWII or not long after or something I guess

And shot traps aren't really too much a thing in the modern day. But this thing is out there far enough that I'd love to throw a hand grenade at the turret and watch it glide down the chute to the turret ring...

what chute

watchu talking bout

[Ardavia]

This thing turned out to be kinda thicc, I think. Oh well.

[Autonomous Eastern Ukraine]

How bad is this for early 50s?