Military Ground Vehicles of Your Nation Mk X

[Austrasien]

Alright, 55 tonnes it is. :/
Oddly enough, the type 90 is actually right around the target weight and appears to have marginally thicker frontal armor than the original Leopard 2 but this has much thicker side armor so maybe around however heavy this thing is.

The Type-90s designers neglected to add any armour to the sides of the turret.

[Austrasien]

How much did the M4A3E2 suffer from its additional armour? I was wondering why the US didn't just make as many as possible instead of M4A3s, as the Jumbo was "only" 9 tons heavier, with a massive increase in protection. Mechanically it must have been fine if they used it a bunch, right?

Proportional weight increase matters much more than absolute weight increase. And proportionally, that was a big increase.

The Jumbo had the same issue as the King Tiger. It was overloaded and a bad driver could easily damage the transmission or suspension.

[Fordorsia]

How much did the M4A3E2 suffer from its additional armour? I was wondering why the US didn't just make as many as possible instead of M4A3s, as the Jumbo was "only" 9 tons heavier, with a massive increase in protection. Mechanically it must have been fine if they used it a bunch, right?

Proportional weight increase matters much more than absolute weight increase. And proportionally, that was a big increase.

The Jumbo had the same issue as the King Tiger. It was overloaded and a bad driver could easily damage the transmission or suspension.

Proportionate to what? Track contact area?

[Austrasien]

To weight.

[Fordorsia]

To weight.

I mean what do you mean proportional weight increase

[Austrasien]

To weight.

[Purpelia]

To weight.

I mean what do you mean proportional weight increase

Adding 1 ton to a 5 ton tank hurts it a lot more than adding the same 1 ton to a 50 ton tank.

[Fordorsia]

I mean what do you mean proportional weight increase

Adding 1 ton to a 5 ton tank hurts it a lot more than adding the same 1 ton to a 50 ton tank.

Well the M4A3E2was over 25% heavier than the M4A3. That's 9 tons added to 33.4 tons, so how come we don't hear about it being a mechanical nightmare?

[Purpelia]

Adding 1 ton to a 5 ton tank hurts it a lot more than adding the same 1 ton to a 50 ton tank.

Well the M4A3E2was over 25% heavier than the M4A3. That's 9 tons added to 33.4 tons, so how come we don't hear about it being a mechanical nightmare?

Various improvements to the part of the tank that has problems with weight that make the E2 an E2 as opposed to a regular A3 which happen to take R&D time and money to develop.

[Fordorsia]

Well the M4A3E2was over 25% heavier than the M4A3. That's 9 tons added to 33.4 tons, so how come we don't hear about it being a mechanical nightmare?

Various improvements to the part of the tank that has problems with weight that make the E2 an E2 as opposed to a regular A3 which happen to take R&D time and money to develop.

What improvements? The regular M4A3 has wider tracks than the E2 without needing grousers, and it also has better suspension in the form of HVSS.I just don't get why its mechanical performance wasn't terrible.

[Purpelia]

Various improvements to the part of the tank that has problems with weight that make the E2 an E2 as opposed to a regular A3 which happen to take R&D time and money to develop.

What improvements? The regular M4A3 has wider tracks than the E2 without needing grousers, and it also has better suspension in the form of HVSS.I just don't get why its mechanical performance wasn't terrible.

That's because you aren't a tank engineer.

[Fordorsia]

Feel free to list whatever these improvements were, because as far as I know the M4A3E2 is just an M4A3 with lots of armour added on, and for some reason VVSP instead of HVSS.

[Purpelia]

Feel free to list whatever these improvements were, because as far as I know the M4A3E2 is just an M4A3 with lots of armour added on, and for some reason VVSP instead of HVSS.

I ain't one either. All any of us, barring the IIRC one guy that knows about engines and stuff, if he is even still active, can say is what we know happened and not why.

[The Akasha Colony]

Well the M4A3E2was over 25% heavier than the M4A3. That's 9 tons added to 33.4 tons, so how come we don't hear about it being a mechanical nightmare?

A few reasons:

• The base M4A3 was very reliable and had a good power to weight ratio for its era. The US Army was rather obsessed with maintaining reliability and ease of maintenance/replacement and heavily tested all of its vehicles, rejecting most variants without ever entering service. On top of this, the M4A3 was the best of the Sherman variants from a mechanical perspective, which is why the US Army largely kept them for themselves and if they had been able to would have switched all production over to that variant. So the Jumbo started from a platform that was already the best available to the US Army.
• The M4A3E2 had a reduced final drive ratio and duckbill extensions to its tracks to reduce ground pressure. The reduced drive ratio reduced its speed but in testing with unmodified Shermans it significantly improved off-road mobility in general and kept wear and strain to acceptable levels. In fact, the benefits were sufficient that it was recommended that all non-M4A3 Shermans adopt the ratio to improve their performance (at the cost of some road speed), but the war ended before this could be implemented. The M4A3 was exempted from the change because the GAA engine was better than the ones powering the other Sherman variants and it was felt it did not need the change. An improved version of the Jumbo with HVSS and a 76 mm (later 90 mm) gun were proposed but by then the M26 was already in production so attention was shifted to that vehicle.
• The US Army had already experimented with heavier assault tank variants of the Sherman with T14, which had even heavier armor (it had armored skirts) so it was familiar with the mechanical problems. In fact, most of the improvements that were implemented in the M4A3E2 were trialed on that vehicle, so the Army was familiar with the potential mobility issues before the M4A3E2 entered service. The Jumbo was actually just a relatively rushed solution after the Army rejected T14 but later decided they needed an assault tank after all.

[Fordorsia]

Well the M4A3E2was over 25% heavier than the M4A3. That's 9 tons added to 33.4 tons, so how come we don't hear about it being a mechanical nightmare?

A few reasons:

• The base M4A3 was very reliable and had a good power to weight ratio for its era. The US Army was rather obsessed with maintaining reliability and ease of maintenance/replacement and heavily tested all of its vehicles, rejecting most variants without ever entering service. On top of this, the M4A3 was the best of the Sherman variants from a mechanical perspective, which is why the US Army largely kept them for themselves and if they had been able to would have switched all production over to that variant. So the Jumbo started from a platform that was already the best available to the US Army.
• The M4A3E2 had a reduced final drive ratio and duckbill extensions to its tracks to reduce ground pressure. The reduced drive ratio reduced its speed but in testing with unmodified Shermans it significantly improved off-road mobility in general and kept wear and strain to acceptable levels. In fact, the benefits were sufficient that it was recommended that all non-M4A3 Shermans adopt the ratio to improve their performance (at the cost of some road speed), but the war ended before this could be implemented. The M4A3 was exempted from the change because the GAA engine was better than the ones powering the other Sherman variants and it was felt it did not need the change. An improved version of the Jumbo with HVSS and a 76 mm (later 90 mm) gun were proposed but by then the M26 was already in production so attention was shifted to that vehicle.
• The US Army had already experimented with heavier assault tank variants of the Sherman with T14, which had even heavier armor (it had armored skirts) so it was familiar with the mechanical problems. In fact, most of the improvements that were implemented in the M4A3E2 were trialed on that vehicle, so the Army was familiar with the potential mobility issues before the M4A3E2 entered service. The Jumbo was actually just a relatively rushed solution after the Army rejected T14 but later decided they needed an assault tank after all.

So in short, the M4A3 was just more than capable of taking all those modifications? The base M4A3 was nowhere near its limit and the E2 was more of a side step than an attempt to keep going up to see what its limit was?

[The Akasha Colony]

So in short, the M4A3 was just more than capable of taking all those modifications? The base M4A3 was nowhere near its limit and the E2 was more of a side step than an attempt to keep going up to see what its limit was?

Tanks don't really have "limits," at least not in a hard sense. Automotive performance and reliability degrades when additional stress is added but there isn't really a clear line that delineates when a tank has passed its "limit."

The US Army continuously tinkered with improvements to the Sherman series and even outright replacements, but it was relatively slow to adopt many of them due to concerns about the impact on existing production and the logistical complications of adding even more new variants requiring different parts to the mix, which was especially true given that the US was providing tanks to other countries who themselves had specific requests. Nonetheless, the US had a pretty good idea of how the Sherman was going to perform from an automotive standpoint; they'd already extensively tested it to figure out its performance degradation with extra weight, etc. And they'd been trying to keep ahead of that by introducing the more worthwhile upgrades, like HVSS, to balance the introduction of bigger guns, etc.

The Jumbo was an emergency measure cobbled together by using thicker frontal armor and the existing final drive ratio tested in the T14. The speed with which a requirement was drafted and the final model approved was quite rapid; the need was identified in early 1944 and in March it was approved for production by the Ordnance Committee. In all likelihood, had the final drive ratio not been tested in the T14 the M4A3E2 would probably still have been pushed into service but it would have had noticeably worse performance. The US was less interested in sidestepping limits than it was in getting a vehicle into service, and it luckily happened to have already experimented with a similar idea so it had the components ready to go.

[Fordorsia]

woo info, thanks

Did they not experiment with proper spaced armour as a potential upgrade instead of just much thicker armour?

[The Akasha Colony]

woo info, thanks

Did they not experiment with proper spaced armour as a potential upgrade instead of just much thicker armour?

They experimented with tons of stuff, including add-on armor kits that could be installed in the field (what Army Ground Forces had actually asked for rather than the Jumbo), plastic armor kits designed to defeat German shaped charge weapons like the Panzerfaust, spike armor also designed to defeat hollow charges, etc. I don't know of any specific spaced armor experiments, although thicker RHA would have been preferred at the time, anyway.

None of these made it into service though because simply increasing the thickness of the rolled plates or castings from the factory was simpler, cheaper, and good enough, and because many of these had occasional issues that either the Ordnance Committee or Army Ground Forces didn't like. The plastic armor was quite effective but weighed 8 tons and whole panels could be knocked off by HE rounds cutting the cables that held them in place. The spike armor was still in development at the end of the war as the Army was trying to determine the optimum spacing and diameter of the spikes.

[Theodosiya]

Cage over add on AMAP blocks with ERA over the cage?

[The Akasha Colony]

Cage over add on AMAP blocks with ERA over the cage?

That defeats the point of the cage, which is designed to disrupt and damage HEAT warheads before they detonate in the first place, and to space them further away from the armor when they do.

[Western Pacific Territories]

Try and find something that isn't perfect about this.
What is this thread's opinions about US forces deploying into Syria?

[Fordorsia]

(Image)

Try and find something that isn't perfect about this.
What is this thread's opinions about US forces deploying into Syria?

Either carpet bomb everything or leave it alone

[Taihei Tengoku]

(Image)

Try and find something that isn't perfect about this.
What is this thread's opinions about US forces deploying into Syria?

Those Strykers don't stand a chance against Kornets

[Fordorsia]

(Image)

Try and find something that isn't perfect about this.
What is this thread's opinions about US forces deploying into Syria?

Those Strykers don't stand a chance against Kornets

They'll just level any building they see in case one dood is in it, just like always lmao

[Gallia-]

Those Strykers don't stand a chance against Kornets

They'll just level any building they see in case one dood is in it, just like always lmao

How? Suicide ramming?