OOC: Laser weapons in MT and PMT: A brief FAQ

[New Vihenia]

Brewing my own laser calculator :3

http://www.mediafire.com/view/r25cdq2f6 ... rCalc.xlsx

So basically the calculator will calculate and roughly determine whether the laser can destroy the target or not. Based on the user input the calculator will determine the beamspot area, absorbed power within the beam diameter at the target, determine beam fluence per seconds of engagement and beam fluence received by target at xxx engagement time specified by user.

Oh anyway this calculator will unfortunately Not consider beam broadening caused by "Tropospheric soup" Thus be careful when sizing Naval laser with this calculator.

Parameters considered are :
-Mirror diameter (The one which focus the beam)
-Emitted power (Pulsed or CW doesn't matter)
-Dwell time (How long the laser need to dwell to the target)
-Absorbance of the material toward laser beam (This need a chart..I'll provide it below)
-Target hardness :
[*]Aircraft : 25 Kj/sqcm
[*]Ballistic Missile (Solid fueled): 24 Kj/Sqcm
[*]Ballistic Missile (Liquid Fueled): 3 Kj/Sqcm
[*]Ballistic Missile (Liquid Fueled)With some hardening and rotation : 10 Kj/Sqcm
[*]Re-Entry Vehicle of Ballistic Missile : 100 Kj/Sqcm

Chart of laser radiation absorbtion of some material (unfortunately..no composite..)

[Haishan]

Groovy Vihenia. Does your calculator account for multiple aperture lasers or I can just assume combined aperture diameter? Excalibur made by DAPRA for example employ phased array approach, with multiple apertures where each contribute to final laser power at range. Additional information if one really want to make his/her laser weapon more realistic.

Atmospheric transmission windows for high energy short pulse lasers

Propagation of High-Energy Lasers in a Maritime Atmosphere

Research on Laser Weapon Soft Damage to IR Seeker

[New Vihenia]

Groovy Vihenia. Does your calculator account for multiple aperture lasers or I can just assume combined aperture diameter? Excalibur made by DAPRA for example employ phased array approach, with multiple apertures where each contribute to final laser power at range. Additional information if one really want to make his/her laser weapon more realistic.

I wonder.. Anyway i think it still work where "mirror diameter"Is substituted with the laser's aperture diameter.

[Haishan]

Groovy Vihenia. Does your calculator account for multiple aperture lasers or I can just assume combined aperture diameter? Excalibur made by DAPRA for example employ phased array approach, with multiple apertures where each contribute to final laser power at range. Additional information if one really want to make his/her laser weapon more realistic.

I wonder.. Anyway i think it still work where "mirror diameter"Is substituted with the laser's aperture diameter.

Okay, I will take it for a spin later. More contribution for the thread which I think is pretty important. It lists current ten myths about HELs and the corresponding counterarguments.

Apollonov V. V (2014), Laser Technology and Weapons, Prokhorov General Physics Institute, Russian Federation

[Haishan]

Another contribution, which news is surprising to me. It's merely a 30 kW system, and there already 100 kW system being deployed and soon 150 kW system. Of course, laser weapon effectiveness at range depends on its distance to the target and power level however. Now if someone start to put a 150 kW system on, say AC-130 Spooky, suddenly things will get interesting (or in other words from an anonymous US military official, plausible deniability). The news link also cites other press releases on the same subject so there's some legitimacy to it.

Lockheed Martin Creates Laser That Can Disable A Truck In Seconds From More Than A Mile Away

If someone claimed HEL weapons are miles away from being integrated on a platform, see Lockheed Martin's ADAM system, Boeing HEL-MD and now Rheinmetall HEL on wheels. Rheinmetall put from 5 kW to 20 kW on variety of platforms as per this link and it was demonstrated in live fire exercises. Key point paraphrased from the link, "This event, conducted in front of an audience of international experts, underscores once again Rheinmetall’s technological lead in the forward-looking field of high-energy laser effectors."

To add in my opinion, lasers are MT but it depends on what kind of laser it is. Fiber laser ala Lockheed Martin unit? Or Rheinmetall's 20 kW Boxer APC? MT. ONRL free electron laser? That's PMT.

[Axis Nova]

Aaah, you beat me to posting it

[Themiclesia]

From a physical standpoint, only the perfect black-body will absorb the full energy of laser, which is a type of electromagnetic radiation. Literally everything else will diminish the effectiveness of laser.

[Haishan]

From a physical standpoint, only the perfect black-body will absorb the full energy of laser, which is a type of electromagnetic radiation. Literally everything else will diminish the effectiveness of laser.

This is a non-sequitur for all intents and purposes given the blanket statement do not have any relevance to the laser weapons in general as it have been demonstrated that laser weapons do work, in a specified range, target type and environment involved. What is not concrete however is the effectiveness of the laser on target (which perhaps can be a sheep or an attack helicopter) until the parties involved determined it so, as demanded by the involved roleplay where it's being used upon.

However the principal absurdity of the quoted statement could be applied and proven of its fallacy; if man can cycle himself to work, why does he need to drive? Such hypothetical situation of course invoke host of other factors and argument supporting the other or neither but such statement only serve to invoke ignoratio elenchi to the topic at hand.

Therefore I stress that further discussion with the effectiveness of laser weapons is best conducted between the user and the target before being used in a RP, noting usage of New Vihenia calculator as one of the best estimation tool to provide background information for involved parties to invoke an approximated judgement regarding such use as there are simply too many variables at play to determine precisely on the effectiveness of such light speed weapon.

[Themiclesia]

From a physical standpoint, only the perfect black-body will absorb the full energy of laser, which is a type of electromagnetic radiation. Literally everything else will diminish the effectiveness of laser.

This is a non-sequitur for all intents and purposes given the blanket statement do not have any relevance to the laser weapons in general as it have been demonstrated that laser weapons do work, in a specified range, target type and environment involved. What is not concrete however is the effectiveness of the laser on target (which perhaps can be a sheep or an attack helicopter) until the parties involved determined it so, as demanded by the involved roleplay where it's being used upon.

However the principal absurdity of the quoted statement could be applied and proven of its fallacy; if man can cycle himself to work, why does he need to drive? Such hypothetical situation of course invoke host of other factors and argument supporting the other or neither but such statement only serve to invoke ignoratio elenchi to the topic at hand.

Therefore I stress that further discussion with the effectiveness of laser weapons is best conducted between the user and the target before being used in a RP, noting usage of New Vihenia calculator as one of the best estimation tool to provide background information for involved parties to invoke an approximated judgement regarding such use as there are simply too many variables at play to determine precisely on the effectiveness of such light speed weapon.

Note that I wrote laser, not laser weapon. I was merely applying a principle of electormagnetic radiation and its absorbtion, to say nothing of the ire that was incurred thereby, being completely out of proportion. Your affinity to Latin expressions also demands that I reply in like fashion: si non hac litteras vis, abite.

[Haishan]

Note that I wrote laser, not laser weapon. I was merely applying a principle of electormagnetic radiation and its absorbtion, to say nothing of the ire that was incurred thereby, being completely out of proportion. Your affinity to Latin expressions also demands that I reply in like fashion: si non hac litteras vis, abite.

Therefore I apologise for my side of error but in the context of the thread, lasers would refer to laser weapons (as indicated by the thread title itself) and thus I perceive it as an attack to what amounts to an operational, real life weapon class. However what you state is the obvious and thus I question your motive of posting such, noting this thread isn't about argument of definitions and more inclined to laser weapons' characteristics and associated news.

Another contribution, Britain to build prototype laser weapons. In my opinion, such developments could be attributed to the premise of solid state laser weapons cost effectiveness, compared to that USD 120000 missile (example) despite negative publicity brought by American chemical laser program a decade earlier.

Arguably any modern NS MT State can develop such solid state lasers given the base behind them are industries that relied on precision laser cutting and a bit of investment into modern optics could result operational systems in seven or so years depending on military evaluation process and the industrial base of the State. While what constitute a modern State could be interpreted in various ways, in my opinion, if the State can make cars and precision products, solid state laser weapons are in reach. The only limitation would be how compact it could be made.

Also New Vihenia, your calculator is awesome. Had a bit of fun with it, trying various concepts. Figuring out absorbancy of certain targets are quite rough outside rigorous experimental testings so I'm forced to just estimate. Good enough for my purpose given I'm designing several anti-air laser suites for various platforms.

[Themiclesia]

Note that I wrote laser, not laser weapon. I was merely applying a principle of electormagnetic radiation and its absorbtion, to say nothing of the ire that was incurred thereby, being completely out of proportion. Your affinity to Latin expressions also demands that I reply in like fashion: si non hac litteras vis, abite.

Therefore I apologise for my side of error but in the context of the thread, lasers would refer to laser weapons (as indicated by the thread title itself) and thus I perceive it as an attack to what amounts to an operational, real life weapon class. However what you state is the obvious and thus I question your motive of posting such, noting this thread isn't about argument of definitions and more inclined to laser weapons' characteristics and associated news.

To be completely frank with you, the word weapon is conspicuously missing from the title. In that post I had written physically, and I used the word in the sense of as pertaining to physics. Being electromagnetic radiation, laser is both wave and particle; these two forms of energy exhibit different behaviour, as I'm sure you know, under observation. Wave diffuses, particles deflect, but in both forms part of the energy of the beam is inevitably absorbed whenever it comes into contact with other matter. This is what I meant when I said, "literally anything will diminish its effectiveness", with "effectiveness" taken to mean intensity/energy of the beam.

[Axis Nova]

Fixed the title. As a general note, no one likes someone who picks nits, and a simple skim of the OP should have made it clear what I was talking about.

[Themiclesia]

Fixed the title. As a general note, no one likes someone who picks nits, and a simple skim of the OP should have made it clear what I was talking about.

Assumig this to be a realism-themed thread, I wouldn't conveniently ignore the physical properties of the basis of this type of weaponry. But since I am not a physics major, you may ignore my previous post.

[Haishan]

Additional contribution. Essentially same as the table on OP but in graphical form.

Laser output required for different targets and ranges. (Courtesy Center for Strategic & Budgetary Assessments)

Further reading, Are Missile Defense Lasers On The Verge Of Reality?

[Axis Nova]

Additional contribution. Essentially same as the table on OP but in graphical form.

(Image)
Laser output required for different targets and ranges. (Courtesy Center for Strategic & Budgetary Assessments)

Further reading, Are Missile Defense Lasers On The Verge Of Reality?

Thanks, I'm adding that to the OP.

[Axis Nova]

A year end update: The Air Force has begun live fire testing with a laser in the 150kw class, that fits into a fairly compact space.. As stated in the article, there's also a design being worked on that will fit into a Predator C.

So these are basically ready for primetime as far as MT roleplay is concerned. Anything above 100kw is suitable for completely replacing a solid round cannon on any fighter, and will make anything it's put on completely obnoxious to shoot down with a missile.

[Haishan]

A year end update: The Air Force has begun live fire testing with a laser in the 150kw class, that fits into a fairly compact space.. As stated in the article, there's also a design being worked on that will fit into a Predator C.

So these are basically ready for primetime as far as MT roleplay is concerned. Anything above 100kw is suitable for completely replacing a solid round cannon on any fighter, and will make anything it's put on completely obnoxious to shoot down with a missile.

What had you done, Axis Nova! Now we will see the influx of OP pls nerf MT fighter toting laser cannons!

I found a snazzy marketing video though, HEL - Rheinmetall’s high-energy laser effectors on wheels (Rheinmetall)

[Axis Nova]

Eh, let 'em whine. It'll be interesting to see how people's brains break when they realize that their usual tactic of missile spam today, tomorrow, and the day after that just became vastly less effective.

[Werftkrieg]

Eh, let 'em whine. It'll be interesting to see how people's brains break when they realize that their usual tactic of missile spam today, tomorrow, and the day after that just became vastly less effective.

Oh thank god.

[Axis Nova]

Summer 2017 bump. Rise from your grave!

[Axis Nova]

End of year bump.

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2017/11 ... hter-jets/

When I said next decade for wide scale deployment, I was right. This thread's old!