Infantry Discussion Thread 10: Shovel Edition [NO FWORDS]

[Laritaia]

which is what i said

[Gallia-]

He is going to go down, and hard.

And then he's getting right back up and going to keep going?

That would be the honest answer.

It would be more an effect for the shooter than the shot, but the shot and friends would also have a pretty visceral demonstration of their body armour's advertised ability to stop bullets and subsequently be more aggressive and confident in small unit actions.

[Cosparia]

How much sense would it make to give my Infantry NCOs pistols, at least as far as a TO&E is concerned? From my perspective, I'm seeing the pistol as more of a weapon to denote position for NCOs and officers rather than as an actual close-quarters fighting tool, considering most of my country's landscape is basically the African savannah with a little bit of mountainous highlands in the northern areas.

[Puzikas]

It depends on what you are shot with, how close, and how much
The majority of armor is not rated for several strikes, the closer those strikes the less the armor will protect against
7.62x51mm NATO AP (such as M993/A1 and potentially M80A1) should be sufficient to penetrate what most vests issued today are rated for.
On paper.
In actuality vests protection levels have been steadily improving and some have kind of surpassed the level of their marketing. Companies are legally disallowed from advertising their vests as being something like "NIJ III+" because it is outside the NIJs testing perameters to test for anything between the gap of III and IV, and a vest also may not be rated as "NIJ VI+" because the NIJ does not test anything above the equivalent to .30-06 AP.
It's worth noting that the methods of the NIJs testing is outdated. 7.62x51mm AP loads in use right now penetrate NIV IV vests at distances in excess of what the .30-06 AP loads are defeated at. I do not know if the NIJ is still attempting to correct this in any way.

Vests offer protection against fragmentation. Vests may protect against cavitation, barotrauma and shock. There's evidence to suggest they do, and there's evidence that suggests they hurt it. No one is really sure because there's not been sufficiently BIGWAR to test it.

The weakest spots on a vest are the points of articulations. The vest provides frontal coverage of about 140°, same for the back. The sides are usually poorly protected because the arm is kind of intended to act as a life saving device.
The shoulders were unprotected but then they weren't, but then no one can see and then they weren't again.
Some vests exist that will defeat a hit from a 12.7 cartridge at 100m. You will probably die from sudden energy transfer resulting in a hemopneumothorax or cardiac arrhythmia that results in cardiovascular or neurogenic shock, decompensated shock and death, but you won't have a 12.7mm projectile ripping though you at 2,764 ft/s.

[Gallia-]

lyran arms irl

[Korva]

this is why you use frozen acid bullets

[Gallia-]

atomic bullet

[Husseinarti]

It depends on what you are shot with, how close, and how much
The majority of armor is not rated for several strikes, the closer those strikes the less the armor will protect against
7.62x51mm NATO AP (such as M993/A1 and potentially M80A1) should be sufficient to penetrate what most vests issued today are rated for.
On paper.
In actuality vests protection levels have been steadily improving and some have kind of surpassed the level of their marketing. Companies are legally disallowed from advertising their vests as being something like "NIJ III+" because it is outside the NIJs testing perameters to test for anything between the gap of III and IV, and a vest also may not be rated as "NIJ VI+" because the NIJ does not test anything above the equivalent to .30-06 AP.
It's worth noting that the methods of the NIJs testing is outdated. 7.62x51mm AP loads in use right now penetrate NIV IV vests at distances in excess of what the .30-06 AP loads are defeated at. I do not know if the NIJ is still attempting to correct this in any way.

Vests offer protection against fragmentation. Vests may protect against cavitation, barotrauma and shock. There's evidence to suggest they do, and there's evidence that suggests they hurt it. No one is really sure because there's not been sufficiently BIGWAR to test it.

The weakest spots on a vest are the points of articulations. The vest provides frontal coverage of about 140°, same for the back. The sides are usually poorly protected because the arm is kind of intended to act as a life saving device.
The shoulders were unprotected but then they weren't, but then no one can see and then they weren't again.
Some vests exist that will defeat a hit from a 12.7 cartridge at 100m. You will probably die from sudden energy transfer resulting in a hemopneumothorax or cardiac arrhythmia that results in cardiovascular or neurogenic shock, decompensated shock and death, but you won't have a 12.7mm projectile ripping though you at 2,764 ft/s.

fuck i know all that stuff.

class is paying off <3

[Gallia-]

Is destructive testing of vests just not done or something?

How do you identify how useful a particular bullet is against a target without using it against that target? It can't be that hard to buy a couple IOTVs and ESAPI plates from GSA and shoot them with some with M993s. Which was apparently done to the extent that both M993 and M995 were used against a BRDM-2 IRL, but no one has tested IOTV against the same?

Is it really that expensive to just write a 50 page report and perform about 20 destructive test shots or something?

[Rhodesialund]

atomic bullet

DU bullets are best bullets. It's economical at $5/lb compared to $20-$30/lb of tungsten. Plus it has good long-term effects at making sure your enemy is deader.

[Rhodesialund]

He is going to go down, and hard.

And then he's getting right back up and going to keep going?

After a minute maybe. It's the equivalent of getting a sledgehammer to the chest. Bones aren't gonna break outright, but the vest needs to disperse the energy of the projectile.

The main worry body armor designers need to focus on is spalling or fragmentation. A plate can stop a bullet or two, but the plate carrier needs to stop the fragments from hitting the user's arms/face.

[Gallia-]

And then he's getting right back up and going to keep going?

After a minute maybe.

Uh, that dude got right back up after being shot in the back.

More like.

"Oh shit I've been shot. Ok I'm still alive. My legs still work. I need to hide."

Happens in the span of about 2 seconds.

Thanks epinephrine and physical fitness.

[Rhodesialund]

After a minute maybe.

Uh, that dude got right back up after being shot in the back.

The impact will stun them momentarily is what I'm trying to say. Gah, my brain is fried. Can't get concise statements out today.


Edit: When I say stun them momentarily, a good impact to the chest can knock the wind out of you depending upon the design of the plate and projectile.

[Gallia-]

Uh, that dude got right back up after being shot in the back.

The impact will stun them momentarily is what I'm trying to say. Gah, my brain is fried. Can't get concise statements out today.

"Stun them momentarily" is colloquially known as "getting the wind knocked out of you".

Judging by how fast that dude recovered that probably didn't happen. It's more like he fell over after being shot because that's what Western society trains people to do. In reality, nothing appears to have happened because he immediately gets back up and scurries behind the Humvee.

[Rhodesialund]

Judging by how fast that dude recovered that probably didn't happen. It's more like he fell over after being shot because that's what Western society trains people to do.

Not really, you get drilled to take cover immediately. He never expected to get hit, so he got the wind knocked out and fell down from the impact force, thanks to the vest dispersing the energy.

In reality, nothing appears to have happened because he immediately gets back up and scurries behind the Humvee.

He was down for two to three seconds before getting up. This is considering it's a lone sniper that started the engagement. If it were a squad accompanied with a GPMG/LMG. He'd be pinned down or shot to shit while on the ground.

[Puzikas]

That fight or flight ain't no joke

Typical body circulation of epinephrine is 8.6-10.4ng/L.
During a sustained release of the autonomic nervous system during hyperarousal that number jumps to ((about)) 500ng/L.
An epinephrine autoinjector delivers .3mg
Adrenaline can and will hide an injury from your nervous system. It literally shuts off the pain.

Is destructive testing of vests just not done or something?

It is. Did I imply otherwise? I didn't mean to put that across.

How do you identify how useful a particular bullet is against a target without using it against that target? It can't be that hard to buy a couple IOTVs and ESAPI plates from GSA and shoot them with some with M993s. Which was apparently done to the extent that both M993 and M995 were used against a BRDM-2 IRL, but no one has tested IOTV against the same?

Is it really that expensive to just write a 50 page report and perform about 20 destructive test shots or something?

[/quote]

A standard test usually involves firing of the most common calibers at the vest several times. The NIJ likes 5, some companies like 10, some departments (NYPD, CPD, LACSD) like 20

Like when tested the NYPDs pick for vests, over 400 vests were used just to test. That's an expensive bid for most vest makers. When a vest is proofed, usually 25-50 are needed.
Then we weight a report on it and that's that
The military budget is THICC, the DOJs or LAPDs are not nearly as thicc.

The DOJ also decided it's testing standards in 1990 or so, and hasn't updated them since. The 5.56x45mm of that era isn't the same as the one we have now, and the 7.62x51mm of then can be outdone by the 5.56 of now.

[Austrasien]

Is destructive testing of vests just not done or something?

How do you identify how useful a particular bullet is against a target without using it against that target? It can't be that hard to buy a couple IOTVs and ESAPI plates from GSA and shoot them with some with M993s. Which was apparently done to the extent that both M993 and M995 were used against a BRDM-2 IRL, but no one has tested IOTV against the same?

Is it really that expensive to just write a 50 page report and perform about 20 destructive test shots or something?

The US Army says it has a special bullet which can penetrate Level IV plates. So they at least do test it. Curiously it does not seem to be the M995/M993. Or maybe it is?

[Gallia-]

That fight or flight ain't no joke

Typical body circulation of epinephrine is 8.6-10.4ng/L.
During a sustained release of the autonomic nervous system during hyperarousal that number jumps to ((about)) 500ng/L.
An epinephrine autoinjector delivers .3mg
Adrenaline can and will hide an injury from your nervous system. It literally shuts off the pain.

Is destructive testing of vests just not done or something?

It is. Did I imply otherwise? I didn't mean to put that across.

How do you identify how useful a particular bullet is against a target without using it against that target? It can't be that hard to buy a couple IOTVs and ESAPI plates from GSA and shoot them with some with M993s. Which was apparently done to the extent that both M993 and M995 were used against a BRDM-2 IRL, but no one has tested IOTV against the same?

Is it really that expensive to just write a 50 page report and perform about 20 destructive test shots or something?

A standard test usually involves firing of the most common calibers at the vest several times. The NIJ likes 5, some companies like 10, some departments (NYPD, CPD, LACSD) like 20

Like when tested the NYPDs pick for vests, over 400 vests were used just to test. That's an expensive bid for most vest makers. When a vest is proofed, usually 25-50 are needed.
Then we weight a report on it and that's that
The military budget is THICC, the DOJs or LAPDs are not nearly as thicc.

The DOJ also decided it's testing standards in 1990 or so, and hasn't updated them since. The 5.56x45mm of that era isn't the same as the one we have now, and the 7.62x51mm of then can be outdone by the 5.56 of now.[/quote]

You said "should be" so it implied doubt I think. Like no one had shot an IOTV with ESAPI with WC ammo or sth.

Is destructive testing of vests just not done or something?

How do you identify how useful a particular bullet is against a target without using it against that target? It can't be that hard to buy a couple IOTVs and ESAPI plates from GSA and shoot them with some with M993s. Which was apparently done to the extent that both M993 and M995 were used against a BRDM-2 IRL, but no one has tested IOTV against the same?

Is it really that expensive to just write a 50 page report and perform about 20 destructive test shots or something?

The US Army says it has a special bullet which can penetrate Level IV plates. So they at least do test it. Curiously it does not seem to be the M995/M993. Or maybe it is?

5.56mm/7.62mm forever.

When the NIJ Level MCXVII plates are defeated by 2,000 year old M16s.

[Puzikas]

Oh, I just haven't been involved with any tests on modern vests with them

[Yes Im Biop]

3 Queastions
1: The fuck is a Sperg
2: How would you fight someone in an Exo suit with armor all around that's roughly 2 inches thick
3: What kind of grenade would be sufficient to kill said suit

[Sevvania]

2: How would you fight someone in an Exo suit with armor all around that's roughly 2 inches thick

Harpoons and tow cables.

[Yes Im Biop]

2: How would you fight someone in an Exo suit with armor all around that's roughly 2 inches thick

Harpoons and tow cables.

...
...
...
Fuck would auctually work

[Laywenrania]

3 Queastions
1: The fuck is a Sperg
2: How would you fight someone in an Exo suit with armor all around that's roughly 2 inches thick
3: What kind of grenade would be sufficient to kill said suit

1) was already explained o.o
2) sounds like an armoured car. So shoot it with AT weapons, like any other armoured vehicles.
3) RPG-43.

[Yes Im Biop]

3 Queastions
1: The fuck is a Sperg
2: How would you fight someone in an Exo suit with armor all around that's roughly 2 inches thick
3: What kind of grenade would be sufficient to kill said suit

1) was already explained o.o
2) sounds like an armoured car. So shoot it with AT weapons, like any other armoured vehicles.
3) RPG-43.

It was?

And dammit i literally never though of using At weapons...and i cant figure out why

[Eisarn-Ara]

Hey fuckos, got 1905 era short-recoil/flapper locking carbine that gets used by an increasingly paramilitary post-war Staatspolizei?

Just a WIP, but that 7.75x43mm GECO prototype fuckery combined with completely redone Swiss style chargers & 12 round mags? Fuckin' Hnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnngggggggggg............................