Infantry Discussion Thread 10: Shovel Edition [NO FWORDS]

[NeuPolska]

Back to the tactical underwear: I think I have a way to make it more badass and not look like an oversized thick pair of briefs.

So Romans used to wear those strap things under their torso armor, that would hang over their lower body. What if soldiers had armor for their crotches, but also for the sides of their thighs? Increased protection AND increased badassery

[The Akasha Colony]

Back to the tactical underwear: I think I have a way to make it more badass and not look like an oversized thick pair of briefs.

So Romans used to wear those strap things under their torso armor, that would hang over their lower body. What if soldiers had armor for their crotches, but also for the sides of their thighs? Increased protection AND increased badassery

It's nothing new.

[NeuPolska]

Back to the tactical underwear: I think I have a way to make it more badass and not look like an oversized thick pair of briefs.

So Romans used to wear those strap things under their torso armor, that would hang over their lower body. What if soldiers had armor for their crotches, but also for the sides of their thighs? Increased protection AND increased badassery

It's nothing new.

I'm aware of that, but I'm talking something that fits closer to the body. It seems the tighty-whitey look is unavoidable, unless some bulk is added to the sides as well. Plus that's hip/pelvic protection being added.

[Austrasien]

Does IR doping matter for specific environs? How specific does it need to be? "Temperate", "desert", "arctic", or even greater granularity like "Wet temperate woodland", "temperate grassland", "arctic desert", "alpine forest", etc.? Does this pose problems for things like UCP and Multicam in defeating near-infrared optics in European forest and Iraqi desert?

Is a split between green/tan/white and IR dying for temperate/desert/arctic environs sufficient for practical purposes? Would you need a separate "urban" pattern so you can pretend like it's the 1990s forever?

"Woodland"
"Urban"
"Winter"
"Desert"

Green plants, in particular, are highly reflective just below the visible range in the NIR band, snow is highly absorptive in all infrared bands. Deserts tend to be reflective in both thermal infrared bands. Camo must match these properties or it will stick out badly. Exploiting the NIR reflectivity of green plants, in particular, is a classic counter-camouflage technique because conventional dyes do nothing in this range. The much higher SWIR reflectivity of most materials compared to snow is another, newer, counter-camo technique.

Urban environments are the most complex infrared backgrounds by a wide margin because of the diverse properties of common building materials. This is problematic in a way because it probably makes determining analytically the best camouflage pattern impossible. But it is also beneficial because intelligently used camo will not necessarily stand out if it is used intelligently, even if it has contrast with the background. The generally low spatial resolution of FLIRs at ranges of concern (kilometers for large FLIRs, hundreds of meters for tactical FLIRs) makes complex patterning redundant though because as resolution cells become larger than patterning it will just sum all the different patches into averages.

[Purpelia]

What would be the disadvantages of using the sort of recoil spring setup demonstrated in this video as the basis for an assault rifle?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3vH7LgvuL4&nohtml5=1

[-Celibrae-]

I was told that my MTP has an infrared coating, and MTP is basically multicam.

Edit: They also said something about not washing it with chemicals.

[Fordorsia]

What would be the disadvantages of using the sort of recoil spring setup demonstrated in this video as the basis for an assault rifle?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3vH7LgvuL4&nohtml5=1

It's French so right off the bat it's rejected

[Gallia-]

Does IR doping matter for specific environs? How specific does it need to be? "Temperate", "desert", "arctic", or even greater granularity like "Wet temperate woodland", "temperate grassland", "arctic desert", "alpine forest", etc.? Does this pose problems for things like UCP and Multicam in defeating near-infrared optics in European forest and Iraqi desert?

Is a split between green/tan/white and IR dying for temperate/desert/arctic environs sufficient for practical purposes? Would you need a separate "urban" pattern so you can pretend like it's the 1990s forever?

"Woodland"
"Urban"
"Winter"
"Desert"

This is what I was going to do, I just wasn't sure.

Green plants, in particular, are highly reflective just below the visible range in the NIR band, snow is highly absorptive in all infrared bands. Deserts tend to be reflective in both thermal infrared bands. Camo must match these properties or it will stick out badly. Exploiting the NIR reflectivity of green plants, in particular, is a classic counter-camouflage technique because conventional dyes do nothing in this range.

Do you have any examples of NIR systems or camouflages that can discriminate or mimic green plants? I'm assuming that infrared dyes were common in the latter part of the Cold War, or are they a more recent phenomena?

The much higher SWIR reflectivity of most materials compared to snow is another, newer, counter-camo technique.

Are SWIR imagers a serious threat in the tactical arena? Are there SWIR rifle sights or CSW sights? What could you do to counter this besides pile snow on yourself?

Would IR camouflage need to be tuned to different spectrum bands to be practical? Would an LWIR sight BTFO any attempt at NIR or MWIR camouflage? Is there a weight or bias that should be placed on defeating particular imaging bands? I'm assuming NIR, followed by LWIR, is priority, since most battlefield imagers are either NIR or LWIR?

[Purpelia]

What would be the disadvantages of using the sort of recoil spring setup demonstrated in this video as the basis for an assault rifle?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3vH7LgvuL4&nohtml5=1

It's French so right off the bat it's rejected

On the contrary. Being French means it is excellent and good. Like, the Bren gun uses a coiled up spring too but I did not even consider it until I saw the French doing it.

[Austrasien]

NIR photography has been used since WWI because there are NIR sensitive films. Basically, all digital cameras are NIR sensitive though they are normally filtered. Image intensifiers operate almost entirely in this range, and are the main NIR detection threat. NIR pigments are already common in military paints and uniforms for this reason.

SWIR is extremely new. It only became practical to build a SWIR camera in the past decade or so and they have very little proliferation. I am not aware of any major users aside from possibly various small UAVs and probably some special forces.

With IR;

• NIR: Reflected sunlight
• SWIR: Reflected sunlight
• MWIR: Reflected sunlight and blackbody emissions
• LWIR: Blackbody emissions

NIR and SWIR camouflage are very similar to each other and to visible light because they are almost entirely reflected. To make visible camo work in these bands it just needs appropriate pigmentation. MWIR and LWIR both have strong components of self-emission so the camouflage must be inherently different, the concealed objects own emissions must be suppressed and the color of the background must be properly matched. There is not a huge difference in MWIR/LWIR camouflage design though.

With permanent camouflage, a major contradiction is a balance between NIR/SWIR reflectivity and solar heating induced thermal infrared emissions. When low NIR reflectivity pigments are used the amount of solar heating tends to become excessive, which both increases thermal infrared emissions can make the painted object unacceptably hot. This is less of a problem in tropical jungles because it is desirable to match the high reflectivity of foliage anyways. But it is a big problem in deserts, over water and anywhere else foliage is not present in significant amounts. Aside from keeping things out of the sun using secondary nets or shelters, there is no really good solution without intensive active cooling.

Normally increased NIR/SWIR contrast is accepted as a tradeoff for acceptable low visible contrast and thermal infrared emissions.

[Spreewerke]

I don't see why you'd be worried about camouflage in an urban environment. You're going to be entering the urban environment from non-urban, I would venture to guess, and by the time you're that close, it's easier to find cover than it is to not be seen.

[Rhodesialund]

I don't see why you'd be worried about camouflage in an urban environment. You're going to be entering the urban environment from non-urban, I would venture to guess, and by the time you're that close, it's easier to find cover than it is to not be seen.

Don't you know Spree? All future wars will be held in Megacities just like Judge Dredd.
http://insct.syr.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Kaune_AWC_Report_Combined-mwedit042016.pdf
https://mwi.usma.edu/time-create-megacities-combat-unit/

[Austrasien]

I don't see why you'd be worried about camouflage in an urban environment. You're going to be entering the urban environment from non-urban, I would venture to guess, and by the time you're that close, it's easier to find cover than it is to not be seen.

But that close to what? In an urban environment the first sighting of a unit will probably be from the air by an aircraft or UAV because the lines of sight are so much better from above. Preventing detection before entering contact is already a tactical advantage. For special forces in particular being able to evade remote detection well keeping tabs on their opponents prior to encountering them will be essential to success.

[Kouralia]

You know,I hadn't realised that Royal Marines still carried F-S daggers into combat. Even more reason for me to issue them.

[Laritaia]

iirc they purchased ton of new ones from some US company a few years ago

plus it probably helps to have a knife that can actually cut things, as opposed to teh SA80 bayonet, which is apparently made from old baked bean cans

[Fordorsia]

You know,I hadn't realised that Royal Marines still carried F-S daggers into combat. Even more reason for me to issue them.

I'd love to hear their reason for wanting a dagger. "muh PERFECT legendary fighting British fighting knife for covert operations"

iirc they purchased ton of new ones from some US company a few years ago

plus it probably helps to have a knife that can actually cut things, as opposed to teh SA80 bayonet, which is apparently made from old baked bean cans

Made from literal milk jugs

The bad steel is probably the least of its problems though, because at least you can make any knife razor sharp.

[Laritaia]

I'd love to hear their reason for wanting a dagger. "muh PERFECT legendary fighting British fighting knife for covert operations".

Tradition

the Gurkhas have their khukuris and the Commandos have their fighting knives

[Fordorsia]

I'd love to hear their reason for wanting a dagger. "muh PERFECT legendary fighting British fighting knife for covert operations".

Tradition

the Gurkhas have their khukuris and the Commandos have their fighting knives

"tradition" probably meaning they genuinely think they could get in a knife fight with someone.

Kukris are practical knives. FS knives are needless, limited in their utility and not even real fighting knives. A fighting knife should be able to cut and thrust equally well, be able to be held in a sabre grip well (aka not a thin round handle), and have a fairly substantial guard. The FS has none of these.

ripo commando


If you want to try make your SF sneaky tacticool Hollywood ninjas with knives, give them knives with long-ish spike blades. Not short daggers or actual fighting knives. Get good UK

[Purpelia]

"tradition" probably meaning they genuinely think they could get in a knife fight with someone.

I very much doubt that. I would imagine that instead they expect to be stabbing someone with it. Big difference.

Basically I don't have proof for this. But the logic is simple. The one and only reason why you would want to attack someone with a knife if you have a gun is if for some reason you don't want to be heard. And that means covertly stabbing someone dead. If you actually get into a fight with him and start knife-fencing all he has to do is shout real loud to his friends and they will come and shoot you dead.

And if all you want to do is just stab someone dead virtually anything that is substantial enough to kill will do the job. And at that point tradition takes hold for morale purposes.

[Kassaran]

Why am I getting a really strong deja vu vibe from this conversation?

[Fordorsia]

"tradition" probably meaning they genuinely think they could get in a knife fight with someone.

I very much doubt that. I would imagine that instead they expect to be stabbing someone with it. Big difference.

Basically I don't have proof for this. But the logic is simple. The one and only reason why you would want to attack someone with a knife if you have a gun is if for some reason you don't want to be heard. And that means covertly stabbing someone dead. If you actually get into a fight with him and start knife-fencing all he has to do is shout real loud to his friends and they will come and shoot you dead.

Stabbing someone to death is the opposite of quiet lmao

And if all you want to do is just stab someone dead virtually anything that is substantial enough to kill will do the job. And at that point tradition takes hold for morale purposes.

In what reality is using a 70 year old knife morale boosting just because it's a specific pattern of knife?

[Crookfur]

Because we've had it before and Frod has a silly hatred of stabby blades. The FS knife was for discretely stabbing people in street brawls, which made it pretty damned good for discretely stabbing German sentries and gaurds.

The royal marines still have it because it was the commando knife and the RM are still commandos and expected to do the odd bit of sneaky stuff (although the recent adds just show the cartel soldier being dragged into a bush rather than being brutally stabbed).

Heck Fairbairn made it very clear what his fighting knife was for which is why he came up with the smatchet for actually fighting with.

[Rhodesialund]

Why am I getting a really strong deja vu vibe from this conversation?

Welcome to the Circle of NS Factbooks. No matter which direction the factbooks go, we always wind up in the same place as before. It's the existential crisis we faced before and will continue to face for future cycles. There is only one way to break the never-ending cycle.

[Fordorsia]

At this point I can't tell if the people who complain about few and far between blade discussions are serious or not. Go back to repeating the same things about ballistics, organization and loadouts week in week out.

Because we've had it before and Frod has a silly hatred of standby blades.

I've just never accepted any good reasons for why it was designed, made and adopted.

It's probably the only knife/sword that I truly disdain. But that's only because of how generic and non-special it is coupled with how it's been put on a pedestal for being "super amazing ultimate stealthy killing knife". Kind of like how I despise Boudica, but mostly because of the absurd legacy she's had for the past 150 years.

[Kassaran]

Oh, don't get me wrong, I enjoy all of the conversations here. They make me smarter for lurking and reading them. I just was getting an overwhelming feeling of Deja Vu, like, I think this was the first major discussion you all were having when I first dropped in on and IDT or MRT ages and ages ago.