Infantry Discussion Thread 10: Shovel Edition [NO FWORDS]

[Neo Balka]

Welp.

i just saw someone on NSG advocate for a field brothel.

Purp would be proud.

and i am no longer surprised by anything.

You do realize that military brothels, field or base are nothing new and have existed since time immemorial? Like the French used them at least up until the end of their involvement in Vietnam.

im just surprised that someone on NSG advocated for it, although i didnt know that they were still in use as late as the indochina conflict.

Fascinating, almost as fascinating as the french army adopting the fucking HK416.

[Purpelia]

You do realize that military brothels, field or base are nothing new and have existed since time immemorial? Like the French used them at least up until the end of their involvement in Vietnam.

im just surprised that someone on NSG advocated for it, although i didnt know that they were still in use as late as the indochina conflict.

Fascinating, almost as fascinating as the french army adopting the fucking HK416.

Really what's different about me is how I employ them.
Basically, instead of having dedicated sex workers I just sort of have my line troops volunteer for the job in exchange for it counting against things like time on watch, digging latrines and extra benefits in general. I figure that would work if it was tried IRL assuming that the troops are an unnaturally even mix of males and females which mine are due to unrealistic lore reasons.

[Neo Balka]

im just surprised that someone on NSG advocated for it, although i didnt know that they were still in use as late as the indochina conflict.

Fascinating, almost as fascinating as the french army adopting the fucking HK416.

Really what's different about me is how I employ them.
Basically, instead of having dedicated sex workers I just sort of have my line troops volunteer for the job in exchange for it counting against things like time on watch, digging latrines and extra benefits in general. I figure that would work if it was tried IRL assuming that the troops are an unnaturally even mix of males and females which mine are due to unrealistic lore reasons.

Ah.

[Norcourt]

Did a thing...

[Laritaia]

nations on NS don't have to follow conventional 21st century western ideals and morals

if it fits in with the theme and setting of the nation they are describing then i don't see what the issue is

[Schwere Panzer Abteilung 502]

During the Battle of Saipan, how was it that the Japanese troops' final bayonet charge into the US lines was successful in destroying multiple American battalions when banzai charges were almost always cut to pieces in most other battles when they were performed?

[Kazarogkai]

During the Battle of Saipan, how was it that the Japanese troops' final bayonet charge into the US lines was successful in destroying multiple American battalions when banzai charges were almost always cut to pieces in most other battles when they were performed?

If it was done at night that could explain things. The Japanese fighting man was well trained and rather adapt at night fighting which would have given them the edge. Mix that in with shear raw surprise and to a degree complacency on the part of the defenders and you got yourself a pretty solid attack.

[Western Pacific Territories]

During the Battle of Saipan, how was it that the Japanese troops' final bayonet charge into the US lines was successful in destroying multiple American battalions when banzai charges were almost always cut to pieces in most other battles when they were performed?

Beats me. Maybe the Japanese managed to gather enough troops/civilians for the zerg rush to become effective? The charge at Saipan was the largest ever performed by the Japanese. And it's possible the American battalions were so damaged they were erased in the fight.

[Western Pacific Territories]

During the Battle of Saipan, how was it that the Japanese troops' final bayonet charge into the US lines was successful in destroying multiple American battalions when banzai charges were almost always cut to pieces in most other battles when they were performed?

If it was done at night that could explain things. The Japanese fighting man was well trained and rather adapt at night fighting which would have given them the edge. Mix that in with shear raw surprise and to a degree complacency on the part of the defenders and you got yourself a pretty solid attack.

It didn't exactly occur at night. The charge was launched at dawn.

[Neo Balka]

During the Battle of Saipan, how was it that the Japanese troops' final bayonet charge into the US lines was successful in destroying multiple American battalions when banzai charges were almost always cut to pieces in most other battles when they were performed?

Largest and first ever i believe.

Saipan was in 42-43?

EDIT: it was in 44.

mustve been it was so fucking huge i think.

[Western Pacific Territories]

During the Battle of Saipan, how was it that the Japanese troops' final bayonet charge into the US lines was successful in destroying multiple American battalions when banzai charges were almost always cut to pieces in most other battles when they were performed?

Largest and first ever i believe.

Saipan was in 42-43?

EDIT: in was in 44.

mustve been it was so fucking huge i think.

From what I can find 4,300 Japanese died in the charge. However, I'm assuming that this number is just the dead soldiers. Out of a civilian death count of around 22,000, only a thousand seem to have committed suicide on the final day. Considering that just about every civilian was involved in the charge, I'm assuming that anywhere up to 25,000 people were killed at max.

I think that after the fighting beforehand the Americans just couldn't cut them down.

[Neo Balka]

Largest and first ever i believe.

Saipan was in 42-43?

EDIT: in was in 44.

mustve been it was so fucking huge i think.

From what I can find 4,300 Japanese died in the charge. However, I'm assuming that this number is just the dead soldiers. Out of a civilian death count of around 22,000, only a thousand seem to have committed suicide on the final day. Considering that just about every civilian was involved in the charge, I'm assuming that anywhere up to 25,000 people were killed at max.

I think that after the fighting beforehand the Americans just couldn't cut them down.

not all at once.

[Kazarogkai]

It didn't exactly occur at night. The charge was launched at dawn.

A rather common and popular tactic historically. Presents enough light to work under while still helping in obscuring your forces and to a degree neutralizing the enemy's firepower advantage. Plus they had been fighting throughout for quite a while as such I imagine they may have been low on ammo which would only compound onto the problems that they would have.

[Neo Balka]

It didn't exactly occur at night. The charge was launched at dawn.

A rather common and popular tactic historically. Presents enough light to work under while still helping in obscuring your forces and to a degree neutralizing the enemy's firepower advantage. Plus they had been fighting throughout for quite a while as such I imagine they may have been low on ammo which would only compound onto the problems that they would have.

Never took the Imperial japanese military to be smart.

[Taihei Tengoku]

During the Battle of Saipan, how was it that the Japanese troops' final bayonet charge into the US lines was successful in destroying multiple American battalions when banzai charges were almost always cut to pieces in most other battles when they were performed?

Largest and first ever i believe.

Saipan was in 42-43?

EDIT: it was in 44.

mustve been it was so fucking huge i think.

Largest yes first ever by no means. Banzai charges were fairly effective in China as they could mop up Chinese troops who didn't have that many machine guns or a good chain of command. If you could overrun the forward positions Chinese units tended to shatter and you'd gain a lot of ground fairly quickly--important for countries that don't have time on their side.

The problem in the Pacific War was that many of the good officers and NCOs died in China well before Pearl Harbor and the island garrisons by and large received the chaff of the worsening Japanese leadership schools.

[Gallia-]

Welp.

i just saw someone on NSG advocate for a field brothel.

Purp would be proud.

and i am no longer surprised by anything.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bordel_mi ... e_campagne
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recreatio ... ssociation

[Neo Balka]

Welp.

i just saw someone on NSG advocate for a field brothel.

Purp would be proud.

and i am no longer surprised by anything.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bordel_mi ... e_campagne
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recreatio ... ssociation

>Comfort women
>occupied Japan

The irony is palpable.

[Gallia-]

It was literally a copy/paste from Imperial Japan.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

During the Battle of Saipan, how was it that the Japanese troops' final bayonet charge into the US lines was successful in destroying multiple American battalions when banzai charges were almost always cut to pieces in most other battles when they were performed?

Beats me. Maybe the Japanese managed to gather enough troops/civilians for the zerg rush to become effective? The charge at Saipan was the largest ever performed by the Japanese. And it's possible the American battalions were so damaged they were erased in the fight.

Remember this was done by everybody in WWI against probably the most sophisticated trench system the world has ever seen for about 3 years until somebody figured out infiltration tactics, and just about some times when enough men were thrown against the machine guns the enemy trenches would be taken.

[Gallia-]

Beats me. Maybe the Japanese managed to gather enough troops/civilians for the zerg rush to become effective? The charge at Saipan was the largest ever performed by the Japanese. And it's possible the American battalions were so damaged they were erased in the fight.

Remember this was done by everybody in WWI against probably the most sophisticated trench system the world has ever seen for about 3 years until somebody figured out infiltration tactics, and just about some times when enough men were thrown against the machine guns the enemy trenches would be taken.

It says more about the Japanese than anything else. They required 4,300 KIA to take two National Guard battalions with >10:1 loss exchange ratio against. This would qualify as a "win" for the US in RAND's 1990s models.

During the Battle of Saipan, how was it that the Japanese troops' final bayonet charge into the US lines was successful in destroying multiple American battalions when banzai charges were almost always cut to pieces in most other battles when they were performed?

Beats me. Maybe the Japanese managed to gather enough troops/civilians for the zerg rush to become effective? The charge at Saipan was the largest ever performed by the Japanese. And it's possible the American battalions were so damaged they were erased in the fight.

They lacked sufficient quantity of machine guns and mortars to kill all the Japanese. That's about it.

It wasn't a super high speed, competent operation like the PLA in Korea or anything. The 105th IR actually stopped them, they and the MUHREENS just couldn't cover the ground with enough bullets and shells fast enough to keep the Japanese from running through the regimental HQ and hitting the howitzers behind it. By the time they got to those howitzers, though, it was probably less than 400 dudes. Out of ~4,500-5,000 or so at the start.

The Japanese just had enough bodies to run through the combined kill zone of the 105th IR, their tanks, and the Marines' howitzers. They achieved this and were so depleted by the firepower of the Americans that they were beaten back by second-line artillerists (every sailor Marine a rifleman!) with carbines.

It was completely ineffectual at achieving anything.

[Fordorsia]

During the Battle of Saipan, how was it that the Japanese troops' final bayonet charge into the US lines was successful in destroying multiple American battalions when banzai charges were almost always cut to pieces in most other battles when they were performed?

Because when your average army charges, it's usually not as much of a last resort as what the Japanese situation was on Saipan. If a charging army is taking heavy casualties, it would usually retreat before reaching the defenders. Clearly not the case with those Japanese soldiers, who didn't care about casualties. If you have the numbers and morale, your charge will reach the enemy even in open ground simply by overwhelming them. As well as being the biggest charge it was probably the most successful thanks only to how many men took part.

[Schwere Panzer Abteilung 502]

So the only thing the Saipan banzai attack achieved was killing a lot of able Japanese bodies, and the only thing that makes it different is this attack succeeded in killing a few Americans?

[Gallia-]

So the only thing the Saipan banzai attack achieved was killing a lot of able Japanese bodies, and the only thing that makes it different is this attack succeeded in killing a few Americans?

The only thing that makes it different was it was able to overwhelm the quantity of machine guns, mortars, and howitzers firing into the kill zone with bodies. The "able Japanese bodies" were lost the instant the US Navy arrived. The Japanese might have consumed more time if they simply surrendered and drowned the island's defenders in paperwork of processing the EPWs. Assuming the Americans didn't shoot them out of hand, of course, which was a high possibility (even without prior fanatical defenses) due to contemporary Allied attitudes.

[Purpelia]

So the only thing the Saipan banzai attack achieved was killing a lot of able Japanese bodies, and the only thing that makes it different is this attack succeeded in killing a few Americans?

Yes. Exactly like every other massed frontal attack against an enemy that has repeating rifles or better ever.

[Fordorsia]

So the only thing the Saipan banzai attack achieved was killing a lot of able Japanese bodies

They also killed 650 Americans, a lot more than if they had continued their defense which would have resulted in the same number of Japanese dead from prolonged naval bombardment.