NationStates

Allanea wrote:

Gallia- wrote:Does this mean the USA is a huge idiot led moronocracy because it lost the world?

The most accurate statement is that Hitler's Reich started out competent and gradually became less competent as it was clouded by early successes in its decision making, culminating in eventual defeat around 1942 when the USA entered the war. That doesn't detract from its early success in the slightest, that just points out the folly of having so much information weighed on a small circle of individuals. Had Hitler stopped at the Sudetenland, the Third Reich would probably still exist in some form today.

The problem with this idea is that having so much information weighed on a small circle of individuals is at the core of what the Third Reich believed in, and equally, vast territorial expansion is at the core of Mein Kampf, even at an age when sheer territorial expansion was becoming less and less important economically.

In reality, Hitler and his cronies came into possession of a country with a strong industrial and military tradition, and a strongly nationalistic culture, as well as a literary and philosophical tradition that could be put into service of a nationalist upheaval. In other words, it was much like a gang of meth-using, cousin-humping racists with bad teeth breaking into a National Guard armory.

Well, literally a gang of meth-using cousin-humping racists. In Hitler's case - literally with bad teeth.

They then used the cultural and social weapons they had found there to fight everyone else, and predictably lost. It should be noted that fighting everyone else was a spectacularly bad idea on the level of performing a pirouette atop a speeding train for Youtube likes.

I can climb on top of a speeding train, and if I am good at ballet, I may perform several, extremely technically well-executed, wonderful pirouettes up there. Possibly the video of me performing a pirouette in a ballerina dress as I get face-slammed by an electric pole at 100 MPH will get 10 million likes and go viral. But that is not competence as most people know it.

Since you asked me to comment on this for some reason, I agree except to say that the background of the Nazis was mostly upper middle class, just like that of other revolutionaries, and their revolution was carried out very competently.

Austrasien wrote:

Allanea wrote:It was not a competent government because it did not succeed at achieving its own goals, and indeed consistently achieved the reverse of its own goals, in ways that were entirely predictable at the time.

It succeeded at the vast majority of it's goals. Your argument is retrocasual; because Germany lost the war the Anschluss and partition of Czechoslovakia were not huge diplomatic coups. Because Germany lost the war the Fall of France and the simultaneous destruction of the British and French Army in just over a month was not an incredible military achievement. Because Germany lost the war negotiating the Molotov Ribbentrop pact to temporarily neutralize the USSR as an enemy and prevent Germany from facing the same dilemma in 1939 as in 1914, while also securing the assistance of the USSR is crushing Poland, was not a strategic coup for Germany.

It's not reasoning from hindsight any more than to say someone who makes and loses a million betting on red in Vegas over and over wasn't a really skilled gambler because he won the first ten or eleven times.

Everything Germany did had the potential to explode in their faces in a horrible horrible way. They managed to do five or six of these things without any of them exploding. Then the seventh exploded and they lost everything they had gained and more besides.

If Italy had gone to war over the Anschluss (as it may well have done) they would have been in serious trouble. If Britain, France, and the Little Entente had gone to war over Czechoslovakia, they would have been in serious trouble. They eventually did go to war over Poland. Was the M-R Pact a coup? No. By any sane reckoning at the time, it was a death sentence: there would be a long grinding war with France and then the USSR would choose its moment to stab Germany in the back. They beat France in a few weeks and thus the Goddess of luck bailed them out again - except not really, because now they had to invade the USSR before the USSR invaded them, and they couldn't beat Britain and the USSR. So invading Poland with the M-R Pact was a no-win scenario, they just didn't realise it yet.

That's not to get started on the things that weren't gambles at all, but simply unforced errors. Like embargoing themselves by overvaluing the Reichsmark, or declaring war on the USA.

How does this list of equipment look for my basic infantry? I'm trying to develop the many facets of the Astoran military and I don't just wanna settle on the armor and weapons, but also what they would also carry with them to war.



Should I take away some stuff, add some stuff? Most of this is for on the march, usually to set up camp.

Any advice would be helpful.

Astora and Argam wrote:How does this list of equipment look for my basic infantry? I'm trying to develop the many facets of the Astoran military and I don't just wanna settle on the armor and weapons, but also what they would also carry with them to war.

✹ Kettle helmet (Most common)

✹ Gas mask

✹ Wool cloak (Travel only)

✹ Scarf

✹ Gorget

✹ Gambeson

✹ Hauberk

✹ Surcoat

✹ Spaulder (Weapon arm)

✹ Leather gloves

✹ Gauntlet (Metal arm)

✹ Maille leggings

✹ Leather Boots

✹ Travel bags and seal (Identifies ownership of gear and property on travel)

✹ (4) Wooden stakes

✹ Spade, pick, hammer, & nails.

✹ Wicker Basket

✹ Satchel

✹ Water-sack

✹ Rations

✹ Fork, spoon, knife, bowl, cup, & plate.

✹ Pot, skewer, & grill.

✹ Prayer beads and talisman/chime.

✹ Miracle pages (For casting)

✹ Small alchemy kit.

✹ (10) Bloodred moss (Reduces the effects of bleeding)

✹ (10) Purple moss (Reduces effects of poison)

✹ (5) Green blossom (Greatly restores stamina)

✹ (5) Repair powder

✹ (4) Gold Pine Resin

✹ (5) Fire bombs or Lightning urns

✹ Spear or Sword (One handed)

✹ Short Spear (For throwing)

✹ Kite Shield

✹ Dagger

Should I take away some stuff, add some stuff? Most of this is for on the march, usually to set up camp.

Any advice would be helpful.

Functional gas mask but no firearms leaves Crookfur very confused.

I assume it's for some sort of fantasy setting? The lightning stuff and plant stuff also suggests thus.

What I can say is its unlikely that infantry will be carrying proper tools, they will tend to live on wagons in the care of engineers/sappers. You don't even need a full set for everyone as even in the best scenario it's unlikely that more than half of the troops will be involved in any kind of digging/ construction.

Crookfur wrote:

Astora and Argam wrote:How does this list of equipment look for my basic infantry? I'm trying to develop the many facets of the Astoran military and I don't just wanna settle on the armor and weapons, but also what they would also carry with them to war.

✹ Kettle helmet (Most common)

✹ Gas mask

✹ Wool cloak (Travel only)

✹ Scarf

✹ Gorget

✹ Gambeson

✹ Hauberk

✹ Surcoat

✹ Spaulder (Weapon arm)

✹ Leather gloves

✹ Gauntlet (Metal arm)

✹ Maille leggings

✹ Leather Boots

✹ Travel bags and seal (Identifies ownership of gear and property on travel)

✹ (4) Wooden stakes

✹ Spade, pick, hammer, & nails.

✹ Wicker Basket

✹ Satchel

✹ Water-sack

✹ Rations

✹ Fork, spoon, knife, bowl, cup, & plate.

✹ Pot, skewer, & grill.

✹ Prayer beads and talisman/chime.

✹ Miracle pages (For casting)

✹ Small alchemy kit.

✹ (10) Bloodred moss (Reduces the effects of bleeding)

✹ (10) Purple moss (Reduces effects of poison)

✹ (5) Green blossom (Greatly restores stamina)

✹ (5) Repair powder

✹ (4) Gold Pine Resin

✹ (5) Fire bombs or Lightning urns

✹ Spear or Sword (One handed)

✹ Short Spear (For throwing)

✹ Kite Shield

✹ Dagger

Should I take away some stuff, add some stuff? Most of this is for on the march, usually to set up camp.

Any advice would be helpful.

Functional gas mask but no firearms leaves Crookfur very confused.

I assume it's for some sort of fantasy setting? The lightning stuff and plant stuff also suggests thus.

What I can say is its unlikely that infantry will be carrying proper tools, they will tend to live on wagons in the care of engineers/sappers. You don't even need a full set for everyone as even in the best scenario it's unlikely that more than half of the troops will be involved in any kind of digging/ construction.

There's firearms actually, just primitive stuff with some relative advancements due to differences in discovery on the subject.

The fire bombs are also grenades, not sure if general infantry would need that many.

Tule wrote:

Puzikas wrote:Idk if any of you are into weightlifting or body building like I am

But the guy who just won the Arnold classic (which is a body building competition) is a army SSGT

Here he is in uniform:
(Image)

And here is the greatest comment of the year:
(Image)

Nah, I much prefer my BJJ thank you very much!

In all seriousness though, that guys is impressively fucking big.

Dat brazilian flag in the background which can be briefly seen at around 0:50.

NOTHING FROM MY MOTHERLAND SHALL ESCAPE MY EYES

USBN has a sensor that triggers after anything vaguely Brazilian is mentioned.
And I can appreciate that

Should combat troops get Brazilian waxes for optimum drag reduction?

Puzikas wrote:USBN has a sensor that triggers after anything vaguely Brazilian is mentioned.
And I can appreciate that

This is definitely going in my sig.

Korva wrote:Should combat troops get Brazilian waxes for optimum drag reduction?

Não.

The essence of the true Brazilian warrior is not to be hi-speed lo-drag, but instead to be perfectly camouflaged and unseen by the enemy until the time has come to ambush. Let them become one with the environment instead of adopting such methods of human intervention, and then give them FN FAL clones, ALICE webbing, cool hats with a folded side and traditional Brazilian "Facões" ("machete"-esque, big knives, singular "facão") instead.

Well shit fellas, the Ulfran retcon is taking a STRANGE turn; since they have Big Hands(for you), I decided to completely redo their 10mm/40cal/9x19mm niche filling cartridge allegory. Strangely enough, it also vaguely fits into the 7.63 mauser equivalent for them. Suffice it to say, it's a big bore round (ofc), but I'm fucking with the prospects of just how nasty a jacketed semi-wadcutter with a hollowpoint or softpoint would fare in regard to popularity during "police actions" or other such things.

Ok, so I am looking at wether to base my not-Green Beret/Spetznav on one of two org charts from FM-100-63, with a few tweaks of my own. I decided, for simplicity sake, to start down on the squad/team level. Here's what I have so far:

The "Commando" type:

Squad Leader: AK-74
Senior Riflemen (2): GP-25, AK-74
Grenadier (2): RPG-7, PM
Machine gunner(2): PKM, PM
Flamethrower gunner: LPO, PM
Rifleman (5): AK-74

The "Special Forces" Type:

Team Leader: AKS-74, PM
Asst. Team Leader: AKS-74, PM
Com. Specialist: AKS-74, PM
Weapons Specialist (2): AT-7 Saxhorn\LPO\Strela-2\SVD, PM
Demo. Specialist (2): AKS-74, PM, RDG-5\RKG-3


Any thoughts? I was considering making these ultimately be part of company strength units assigned to my under-strength Infantry Regiments, which really are more like Batallion Tactical Groups right now. So basically every Regiment will have a a penny packet of Green Berets on their org charts.

According to the field manual, the "spetcial forces" type of squad could be equipped with AKS-74Us instead of the longer rifle, and I am half tempted to let that replace the Makarov pistols...

Prosorusiya wrote:I am half tempted to let that replace the Makarov pistols...

Bro, swap out the Makarovs for OTs-33s or Stetchkins. For Maximum slavoperator.

Aethal wrote:Well shit fellas, the Ulfran retcon is taking a STRANGE turn; since they have Big Hands(for you), I decided to completely redo their 10mm/40cal/9x19mm niche filling cartridge allegory. Strangely enough, it also vaguely fits into the 7.63 mauser equivalent for them. Suffice it to say, it's a big bore round (ofc), but I'm fucking with the prospects of just how nasty a jacketed semi-wadcutter with a hollowpoint or softpoint would fare in regard to popularity during "police actions" or other such things.

Forget 7.63 Mauser and go all out with 7.5 Felix AKA the handgun round that just barely lags behind .30 carbine.

Purpelia wrote:

Aethal wrote:Well shit fellas, the Ulfran retcon is taking a STRANGE turn; since they have Big Hands(for you), I decided to completely redo their 10mm/40cal/9x19mm niche filling cartridge allegory. Strangely enough, it also vaguely fits into the 7.63 mauser equivalent for them. Suffice it to say, it's a big bore round (ofc), but I'm fucking with the prospects of just how nasty a jacketed semi-wadcutter with a hollowpoint or softpoint would fare in regard to popularity during "police actions" or other such things.

Forget 7.63 Mauser and go all out with 7.5 Felix AKA the handgun round that just barely lags behind .30 carbine.

Actually, Trans & I were shooting the breeze about it in TS; apparently, what I've got in mind is bugfuck enough to be "Bueno" for the job at hand.

What was bayonet training like for soldiers in the Napoleonic era? Was it mostly 'stick them with the pointy end and listen to your officers' or did they get more significant training?

Prosorusiya wrote:Ok, so I am looking at wether to base my not-Green Beret/Spetznav on one of two org charts from FM-100-63, with a few tweaks of my own. I decided, for simplicity sake, to start down on the squad/team level. Here's what I have so far:

The "Commando" type:

Squad Leader: AK-74
Senior Riflemen (2): GP-25, AK-74
Grenadier (2): RPG-7, PM
Machine gunner(2): PKM, PM
Flamethrower gunner: LPO, PM
Rifleman (5): AK-74

The "Special Forces" Type:

Team Leader: AKS-74, PM
Asst. Team Leader: AKS-74, PM
Com. Specialist: AKS-74, PM
Weapons Specialist (2): AT-7 Saxhorn\LPO\Strela-2\SVD, PM
Demo. Specialist (2): AKS-74, PM, RDG-5\RKG-3


Any thoughts? I was considering making these ultimately be part of company strength units assigned to my under-strength Infantry Regiments, which really are more like Batallion Tactical Groups right now. So basically every Regiment will have a a penny packet of Green Berets on their org charts.

According to the field manual, the "spetcial forces" type of squad could be equipped with AKS-74Us instead of the longer rifle, and I am half tempted to let that replace the Makarov pistols...

I wouldn't rely on FMs for the structure of Soviet SpetSnaz units and their equipment.

It's highly dependent on their theater, branch, unit, and purpose. Most Soviet Army SoetSnaz assault Battalions and companies were simply Soviet MR units with their pick of the litter of new equipment and more electronic weapon systems, like NV or sensors/jamming equipment consisting of enlistees for longer periods or combat troops from Afghanistan, for example. Still others were specialized units who were forbidden from having extended contact with regular troops at base and wore uniforms without identification beyond a potentially fabricated name, rank and a unit (engineering and Reconnaissance seemed the preferred area).

The general rule is to consider the units mission type and arm them as such. Most SpetSnaz troops receive extremely diverse weapons training and familiarization and train downright religiously.

Commando units were generally armed similar to MR units but had more casualty producing weapons: they generally had two PKs and carried more rockets for the RPG. The actual special forces could have anything.

The issuance of the AKS-74U was born for the need of a CQ weapon and tight quarters of the Mi-24 and mi-8 in Afghanistan. Pilots and tankers were still the primary uses of the AKS-74U. They found favor in MP units, snipers, RPG-7 Gunners and heavy weapons teams, but these were an oddity. It could be used as a replacement for the PM, and was, but generally one would expect a troop to forgo the added 2.29 kilos for the AKS-74U and Cary instead the extra mass in magazines (9).

Flamethrowers last frontal deployment (the the actual stream type) was basically gone by the mid 80s. The last time I personally heard of a true flamethrower in a unit was a reserve unit in Chechnya 1 who still had LPO-50s, who basically downright could not enter the AO because no one would escort them. It's basically all reactive flamethrowers now.

Thanks for the advice, Puzikas. I'll definitely give my boys the pick of the litter in equipment, since they will be serving effectively the same role that grenadier/flank companies did in the 19th century in their parent units, and they will be the ones going overseas. Just not sure wether I like the team or squad architecture better. What I do know is that there will be some differences for my units deployed in Iraq vs Afghanistan, since Iraq has a air threat (Turks) and Afghanistan dosen't.

I use the LPO-50 partly because my units are meant to be reserve units from just pre-Chechnya 1, but mostly just for the coolness factor. I figure if it's good enough for the Chinese, it's good enough for me . I keep them around for their usefulness in flushing out caves (in Afghanistan & my home country) and buildings (Kurdistan/Iraq).

Lol on nobody wanting to escort them though. I've heard flame thrower guys were pretty much everyone's least favorite people in WW2 & WW1.

So, which Semi-jacketed wadcutter looks better?

Schwere Panzer Abteilung 502 wrote:What was bayonet training like for soldiers in the Napoleonic era? Was it mostly 'stick them with the pointy end and listen to your officers' or did they get more significant training?

Pretty much just stabstabstabstab

It wasn't in depth at all until quite a bit after the Napoleonic period. But from after then until partway through WWI fencing with your enemy was what was expected would happen (even after repeating rifles were standard), and after the initial charge, I have no doubt that that would be the case once the two opposing bodies loosened up during the melee. So dey got dem bay'net techniques in.

Aethal wrote:So, which Semi-jacketed wadcutter looks better?

(Image)

Wouldn't a flat nosed bullet have lousy ballistics? Although maybe the tumbling it would induce would be devistating if it hit something... now wether it would hit anything would be another matter. I'd go for conical for that maximum 19th cenury feel. Although I've always had a soft spot for Whitworth bullets myself, but those are pre self contained cartridges.

Semi-jacketed Wadcutters are intended for pistols, so it doesnt matter. Theyre intended to engage sub-50m.

The advantage is rapid expansion. The issue is lack of penetration; depending on the round. .38 special might not reach the FBI standard of 12" Bare-10 percent ballistics gelatin penetration, but things like .357 Magnum certainly will.

It's random question time.

Assume that the weapon is a modern(ish) full auto capable, select fire conventional layout assault rifle. What would be the pros and cons of having a large external hammer that would function as a single-double action thing. So you have to cock it manually after loading a magazine, but after that it self cocks on full auto and on semi you have the option of either-or.

Puzikas wrote:Semi-jacketed Wadcutters are intended for pistols, so it doesnt matter. Theyre intended to engage sub-50m.

The advantage is rapid expansion. The issue is lack of penetration; depending on the round. .38 special might not reach the FBI standard of 12" Bare-10 percent ballistics gelatin penetration, but things like .357 Magnum certainly will.

Ah, I see. Most of my knowledge of ridiculously large cartridges come from the 19th century, pre-Spitzer bullets as in the Martini-Henery & Trapdoor Springfeild. I suppose at a sub 50m range it dosen't matter much.

Speaking of ancient rifles, Puzikas, for ceremonial purposes what kind of rifles did the Soviets have lying about? Any Berdans or Krnkas for ceremonial guard duty and the sort, or just Mosins?

Puzikas wrote:

Padnak wrote:I think I've asked this before in the days of yonder, but is simply issuing soldiers with flack jackets to protect them from shrapnel sufficient? This question is for both Padnak and a significantly more developed puppet; given that shrapnel is responsible for the bulk of battlefield deaths and flack jackets are considerable cheaper than bullet proof vests to produce, generally speaking anyways, would they worth issuing or is it better to, if troops are going to be incombered with protective equipment anyways, to make the jump up to proper bullet proof stuff?

Obviously keeping soldiers alive is a good thing, but for a military that has to outfit a very large number of troops or which lacks allot of money are flack jackets worth pursuing?

I could sperg for hours, days, weeks even on how body armorr and flak protection came about and why it is now and so on, just like Galla can, but I won't.

Vests for shrapnel are good enough protection, but they won't offer small arms protection. Then you'll notice an increase in casualties from small arms.

Gallia- wrote:A shrapnel protective vest probably costs $1,000 or so. Plates will be another $2-300. Add in profit margins for another $100-200, maybe. So a total cost difference of maybe $1,100-$1,200 vs. $1,400-$1,500.

A little less
You can get a carrier and level IV vest right now for $550 shipped, in baby-shit brown, multi-meme, and #theselivesmatter.
Plus shipping.

Schwere Panzer Abteilung 502 wrote:How would the M1955 flak jacket fare in 1972?

They're probably past their use by date unfortunately.

DnalweN acilbupeR wrote:I don't want to be rude but are you not contradicting yourself here?

No. Like I said, you need to swap out major components to make a rifle shoot different length cartridges.

Well, you did say afterwards, that only recently have there been developments to fire different COALs from the same gun without major component changes. Assuming I would use this "new technology", would swapping in a different barrel work (maybe different mags too) ?

DnalweN acilbupeR wrote:I pointed out why it's not

You didn't. You just don't know what magazines were like.

Not sure I follow.

Taper is what gives magazines for rimmed ammunition the more defined curve.
More properly it is that curve.

..yes?

DnalweN acilbupeR wrote:Like?

Shotgun shells are not the same as rifle cartridges.

Please be more explicit. I really don't understand this.

DnalweN acilbupeR wrote:Why is there a patent for it then?

Because they're the first to make a double stack saiga magazine.

And so you're saying everything else is just wizardspeak and this technology has existed for a long time but was only recently adopted in Saiga mags?

DnalweN acilbupeR wrote:even with different length bullets because the bullet length does not impact on the size or shape of the chamber, right?

No. If it's too long it will not chamber correctly or headspace correctly, and generate too much pressure. If it's too short, it won't be able to stabilize.

Why doe? ;.; I'm mainly talking about a difference from ~34mm to ~39-40mm so just about ~5mm.

Just 5mmm.... You do realize that when it comes to precision engineering relating to stuff like modern firearms sub 1/10 parts of a mm are considered a lot.