Infantry Discussion Thread 10: Shovel Edition [NO FWORDS]

[Mozria]

-snip-

I think that I understand. So, not only would it be a good idea to use nottanks with autocannons and AGLs in the place of those aforementioned death trucks, they would be significantly better in both environments apart from cost? I am not too surprised, due to their innate defensive qualities, but I think there may be an issue with delivering large amounts of troops alongside those vehicles without being forced to commit too many such transports to a certain area of operations. THat is why large trucks with armor and RWSes sounded like a good option at the time of my asking.

BTW, the COIN experience was against your usual peaceful religious extremists that may or may not have been getting outside help from people with lots of antiarmor rocket launchers and portable crew-served weapons.

[Mozria]

snip II

By "transport use," do you mean ferrying around sardine cans full of grunts with added protection in case they encounter an IED along the way? I have noticed that all Typhoon vehicles have 14.5mm protection to everywhere and (IIRC) the Kamaz-63969 has 20mm-30mm protection to the parts of the front with no windows.

(EDIT): Nevermind, that is incorrect. That was some conjecture from when those things were new, but it got disproven. As far as I can tell, the front portion of the 63969 is just a different way of squaring the circle versus the more truck-like one with more use of sloped armor versus hella (130mm) thick bullet-resistant glass. It is still only resistant to 14.5x114mm projectiles.

[The Akasha Colony]

-snip-

I think that I understand. So, not only would it be a good idea to use nottanks with autocannons and AGLs in the place of those aforementioned death trucks, they would be significantly better in both environments apart from cost? I am not too surprised, due to their innate defensive qualities, but I think there may be an issue with delivering large amounts of troops alongside those vehicles without being forced to commit too many such transports to a certain area of operations. THat is why large trucks with armor and RWSes sounded like a good option at the time of my asking.

BTW, the COIN experience was against your usual peaceful religious extremists that may or may not have been getting outside help from people with lots of antiarmor rocket launchers and portable crew-served weapons.

I'm not sure what the concern is. How would you commit "too many" transports to a "certain area of operations?" Your infantry should have enough transports to move them around as needed and no more, so deploying a battalion should entail enough transports to move a battalion, and indeed these would probably be part of the battalion itself. Or do you expect to have a shortage of transports in your army?

snip II

By "transport use," do you mean ferrying around sardine cans full of grunts with added protection in case they encounter an IED along the way? I have noticed that all Typhoon vehicles have 14.5mm protection to everywhere and (IIRC) the Kamaz-63969 has 20mm-30mm protection to the parts of the front with no windows.

I mean "moving whatever the Russians decide they need to move." Most likely rear-area personnel, because "grunts" would have their own fighting vehicles like BMP or BTR.

[Gallia-]

snip II

By "transport use," do you mean ferrying around sardine cans full of grunts with added protection in case they encounter an IED along the way? I have noticed that all Typhoon vehicles have 14.5mm protection to everywhere and (IIRC) the Kamaz-63969 has 20mm-30mm protection to the parts of the front with no windows.

He means they move around pallets of ammunition and crates of MREs (or POL tanks) in the rear area to supply your mechanized infantry who are driving around in BMPs or something sensible.

Wheeled death trucks have no place in modern combat. An MRAP is more a recognition of the threat posed by convoy ambushes and the inability of Western militaries to spare adequate armour to protect their convoys due to terminal civilizational decline. Thirty years ago you would get laughed at if you talked about "MRAPs" because convoys had tank platoons and engineer squads to protect them.

[Mozria]

My concern was with the amount of troops per vehicle and how that would affect the doctrine for troop carriage, deployment and operation alongside how this doctrine would affect the expense of equipping infantry units with these hypothetical IFVs. For example, when the Bradley CFV was introduced, it necessitated the creation of a new infantry doctrine centered around the "Bradley squad" which was much smaller than normal base infantry units and caused issues with individual squad capabilities.

Perhaps I am a fool for worrying about this, as I know that IFVs and APCs such as the BTR family use small(ish) capacities just fine.

(EDIT): Sorry for the incorrect statement on the Bradley squad. I was remembering information on individual Bradley-based platoon sections compared with M113 platoon sections.

[EsToVnIa]

Generic Western AK-derivative. Actual "Current Models" are probably some kind of Rk 95/Ak5 hybrid

[Mozria]

That looks very much like an AR-180.

[The Akasha Colony]

My concern was with the amount of troops per vehicle and how that would affect the doctrine for troop carriage, deployment and operation alongside how this doctrine would affect the expense of equipping infantry units with these hypothetical IFVs. For example, when the Bradley CFV was introduced, it necessitated the creation of a new infantry doctrine centered around the "Bradley squad" which was much smaller than normal base infantry units and caused issues with individual squad capabilities.

Perhaps I am a fool for worrying about this, as I know that IFVs and APCs such as the BTR family use small(ish) capacities just fine.

(EDIT): Sorry for the incorrect statement on the Bradley squad. I was remembering information on individual Bradley-based platoon sections compared with M113 platoon sections.

There are IFVs with larger squad sizes, but generally the introduction of better-armored, better-armed carriers like Bradley has far outweighed the loss of a few bodies compared to a M113 squad.

[Gallia-]

My concern was with the amount of troops per vehicle and how that would affect the doctrine for troop carriage, deployment and operation alongside how this doctrine would affect the expense of equipping infantry units with these hypothetical IFVs. For example, when the Bradley CFV was introduced, it necessitated the creation of a new infantry doctrine centered around the "Bradley squad" which was much smaller than normal base infantry units and caused issues with individual squad capabilities.

Perhaps I am a fool for worrying about this, as I know that IFVs and APCs such as the BTR family use small(ish) capacities just fine.

(EDIT): Sorry for the incorrect statement on the Bradley squad. I was remembering information on individual Bradley-based platoon sections compared with M113 platoon sections.

No.

The platoon went from a triangle to a dyad.

It's the same as M113s now because they added an extra dismount in the M2A2ODS.

The global standard seems to be 6-7. America is on the big side at 9.

[Mozria]

Excluding how many guys you can optimally cram into a transport, what is the ideal size for an infantry squad? I would assume it would be three fireteams of three or four plus one squad leader, and possibly another couple of guys to work with him?

[EsToVnIa]

13 man squads

[Mozria]

I think that the large squad concept is based on individual squads being able to act as an independent maneuver unit on a tactical scale, meaning being able to use their component fireteams to engage, suppress, surround and destroy the enemy. This is fundamentally different from the smaller squads that are carried in IFVs and smaller-capacity APCs in that those squads are intended to work with one another to do the same thing and are much less independent because of it.

Am I correct on this?

[Mozria]

Also, AFAIK smaller squads often rely more on vehicular support than larger ones do.

How does this difference in tactical disposition affect implementation of weapons sections within infantry units?

[Austrasien]

Am I correct on this?

Squads do not operate independently.

[Mozria]

Not purely independent, mind. However, there are many situations in which squads can and do act alone to accomplish an objective.

For example, taking a squad to clear a small building. One or two fireteams (depending on structure size and layout) stay outside to secure the surroundings and provide overwatch, while the remaining fireteams and the command element enter to control and clear the structure.

[Korva]

Stinky Maltakyan People's Army soldier.


This weekend I might draw his ride.

[Austrasien]

Not purely independent, mind. However, there are many situations in which squads can and do act alone to accomplish an objective.

If a squad is taking an objective it is almost certainly in the context of a larger operation with other squads taking related and adjacent objectives.

Squad subdivisions are primarily to enable continuous movement and fire. Humans cannot do both well. They are not so the squad can be broken into tiny baby squads, as this would defeat the purpose of having a large squad in the first place. There is no significant difference between a thirteen man squad broken into two teams maneuvering independently and two seven man squads maneuvering in concert anyways.

[The Akasha Colony]

I think that the large squad concept is based on individual squads being able to act as an independent maneuver unit on a tactical scale, meaning being able to use their component fireteams to engage, suppress, surround and destroy the enemy. This is fundamentally different from the smaller squads that are carried in IFVs and smaller-capacity APCs in that those squads are intended to work with one another to do the same thing and are much less independent because of it.

Am I correct on this?

No, small squads existed well before the IFV or APC. Commonwealth and German squads of WWII were both ten men well before things like Warrior or Marder or whatever came along.

Not purely independent, mind. However, there are many situations in which squads can and do act alone to accomplish an objective.

For example, taking a squad to clear a small building. One or two fireteams (depending on structure size and layout) stay outside to secure the surroundings and provide overwatch, while the remaining fireteams and the command element enter to control and clear the structure.

If you need this many fireteams this is no longer a squad objective and is instead a platoon objective. Even with a big squad, leaving two fireteams outside leaves only one to do the actual breaching.

I think you're starting to fall prey to the infantry version of Swiss Army Knife Syndrome, if you need more men just bring in more squads. Because otherwise your platoons/companies/battalions are going to get huge and unwieldy if the squads are all heavily bloated.

[Crookfur]

Not really though much about it until now.

By the end of Crookfur's civil unpleasantness of the 1940s the infantry squad is probably a bit of a mess with a mix of bolt actions, self loaders, SMGs and little not M1 automatic carbines all being mixed up. By the early 50s the carbine vs SMG thing should be sorted (probably in favour of a cheap SMG) and more self loaders would be appearing. Of course in 1957 the not AR10/FAL ginger headed step child comes along...

Probably the 10 man mechanised section looks like:
Section leader with carbine,
Lance corporal with SMG/carbine
2 vehicle crew with SMGS.
LMG gunner
LMG assistant with carbine
4 squaddies with bolt action or self loading rifles.

Why SMGs over carbines? The reason I have no SMGs in mine, not even for the vehicle crew, is so that everyone has the same ammo and so they still have good range in case they have to get in da fight, while still having the same size, weight and general magazine capacity in their plumbing carbines.

Because the SMGs would be of much cheapness and producing the automatic carbine (a navy design in its own little calibre) would take away from the production capacity desperately needed for more self loading rifles.

[United states of brazilian nations]

These uniforms, inspired by Valkyria Chronicles, maybe? Pretty cool.

Yes Galla is even named for it.

Oh

That moment when everything makes sense and i start to beat my head to the wall repeatedly for not having noticed it earlier

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

re-repoast ;(

re-poast

what problems could I encounter with using differing OAL cartridges but w/same case length in a semi-automatic firearm? e.g. different length shotgun shells, longer spitzer bullets vs shorter roundnosed bullets in a handgun cartridge etc.

also, given that my military uses 7.62x25mm as a handgun/PDW/SMG round and I like to have commonality with my police forces, would it make sense to have the same guns but with a different barrel that would fire what would essentially be a tapered 9x25mm Mauser (essentially a 7.62 Tok without bottlenecking) ? I think that should give less overpenetration against unarmored targets, better effects with JHP loads, and possibly better performance for subsonic (silenced) applications?

edit: i reckon i could end up with something like FBI's reduced recoil 10mm Auto load? dimensions would be similar i think except 9mm vs 10mm.

edit2: also, purp, can i use this https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/70757389/Bullet/7.5x25%20Felix%20MSP%202nd%20Improved%20Edition%20_reprint.swf pls?

also, anyone heard of these? http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2012/03/28/md-arms-double-stack-saiga-magazine-patent/

edit: any pros and cons to revolvers with interchangeable barrels? (video w/ barrel change)

i know this never caught on but from what i've seen on the internet these particular ones seem to be pretty reliable and accurate.

edit2: and any issue with additionally having an interchangeable cylinder as well to switch between cartridges?

here you can see how the frame has a small central "tang"/grip part potentially allowing for different sub-compact/carry/full-size grips on the same frame

[United Dixieland Territories]

Any of you recall that tube fed rifle I was drawing up? I reckon I ought to put together one with a Lee Style Box magazine, a shorter barrel and some other stuff along those lines as a "testbed rifle" some of my troops could demo in south africa or somesuch during a colonial dust-up with Alimeria's Boer-expys.

[Korva]

Typical Motor Rifle squad of the People's Republic of Maltakya:

Their sworn enemy, a rifle squad of the Republic of Korva:

[Schwere Panzer Abteilung 502]

Just out of curiosity, what do some people here think would be important in an infantryman's assault pack for maintaining high tempo operations, if they were a soldier from an army in 200 BC or whatever?

[Kazarogkai]

Just out of curiosity, what do some people here think would be important in an infantryman's assault pack for maintaining high tempo operations, if they were a soldier from an army in 200 BC or whatever?

Food, a bit of water, a basic weapons repair kit, food, suture kit, map, a couple healing herbs, and even more food.