Infantry Discussion Thread 10: Shovel Edition [NO FWORDS]

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

@NeuPolska: It is worth remembering, taking in consideration what others have said above, that "resistant" means being able to withstand a couple of rounds, if I'm not mistaken, (in any case, definitely in the range of single digits) before shattering/breaking, after which there is little or no protection against additional hits. In the case of more powerful rounds, the stated projectile the plate is supposed to protect from may even refer to single-shot protection, if I'm not mistaken.

This may be mitigated by segmented plates or however they're called where each plate is made of multiple smaller plates so that when one is hit it doesn't affect the others. Some RL plates of primarily Russian design as far as I can remember use this design.

In any case, significant injury and even death can occur even without penetration, because the energy of the shots has to go somewhere, and that somewhere happens to be the wearer's body (the plate helps by dissipating this energy over a larger surface area, resulting basically in lower pressure on the body but over a bigger patch).

Assuming you have a 20% shot accuracy and say 5 normal 5.56 shots are required to defeat a plate, it would mean you'd have to shoot 25 rounds at the same plate to ensure a kill (assuming again that kill = armor defeat). If you'd use WC 5.56 we could assume that one shot on target would be enough, and that would amount to firing 5 shots with the same 20% shot accuracy. Now, assuming the WC 5.56 is 5 times more expensive per round than normal 5.56 you'd basically be even in terms of costs for defeating our hypothetical armor plate. The problem is that it could be 10 times more expensive. Another problem is that plain 5.56 would do just as good a job at killing unarmored targets and it would do it 5-10 times cheaper per round, and it would also do suppressive fire 5-10 times cheaper per round. Issuing different types of ammo for troops can be problematic in a number of ways, including logistically, and you don't really want your G.I.s to fumble in the heat of battle over putting in the right type of ammo in their rifles.

Notice this is all very hypothetical and rough.

Just my 2 cents and please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Kassaran]

Give them good mortar crews and recoilless rifles.

Then they will win at a "straight fight".

As opposed to a transgender fight? Cishomo? I'm not sure what the opposite of a straight fight is. Gay fight?

If it were to be a gay fight, it requires Tac-Sac foregrips and underslung dildo launchers.

Tbh, this just sounds like something bored Marines would do... not necessarily a gay fi- oh fuck it. Why do I even try to help them?

[Dostanuot Loj]

If it were to be a gay fight, it requires Tac-Sac foregrips and underslung dildo launchers.

Tbh, this just sounds like something bored Marines would do... not necessarily a gay fi- oh fuck it. Why do I even try to help them?

Let them eat their crayons in peace.

[Sevvania]

the US is preforming a study to determine the usefulness of finding and preforming a switch to a new caliber/back to 7.62x51mm.

Halo was right

[Puzikas]

They recently got rid of red
The riot footage is astounding

Actually personal armor is starting to become resistant to 5.56 maybe
Which is part of why the US is preforming a study to determine the usefulness of finding and preforming a switch to a new caliber/back to 7.62x51mm.


E: oh yah I think that plate is expired, or theres, you know, special ammunition being used there.
Because a IV plate is definitely proofed against 6.5x39 of all loadings. While not standard practice to test that it still has been tested and proofed.

It's actually a homebrew 125 gr Tungsten Core bullet. The plate is not expired. Bill Alexander is a man of selfishness and not licensing out his shit for the ease of distribution to the consumer, but a flat out liar is not one of them.

I mean "tungsten core" is a bit vague. How much WA is in it? 20%? 40%? What's the material of the jacket or supplimenter of the core?
.30-06 AP uses a 163gr bullet, with a tuned steel core weighting 80 grains 785Hv
The standard Hv of WA is 1450
And a core for 6.5 should be ~ABOUT~ 48-55gr generally
So obviously it has more penetration

Also joules has not as much to do with penetration of armor here
And 6.5 grundle still isnt an intermediate or a full power
And it still is gay

[NeuPolska]

And it still is gay

Ur gay

It seems to me that I might as well just take the 6.5, make it WC, and give it to frontline troops who are most likely to confront quality armor. I've read a story about Murican soldiers using 5.56 in their ARs and fighting Taliban or whatever using Soviet rifles with larger cartridges. Supposedly the 5.56 couldn't compete and the soldiers were not able to fire back effectively. Now I haven't heard of any dreaded death reaper-esque Taliban marksmen, and militants in general don't strike me as expert marksmen.

However a professional army using heavier calibers could have a range advantage over me if I use 5.56. 6.5 seems like a way to even that out. So if I use WC 6.5 I get good range and good chances of penetration without excessive recoil or carry weight. I then institute a rigid marksmenship course in infantry training and bump up that hypothetical 20% to at least 25%, or higher with experienced troops. And then I leave full-fledged actual full power cartridges for the DMRs.

[German England and Russia]

How much of a number wank is this thing?
Name: GER-7.62
Type: Assault Rifle

Magazine size: 30

Calibre: 7.62x54mmR

Length of gun: 3' 11"

Initial Muzzle Velocity: 1,000 m/s

RoF: 900 rds/min

Barrel: Rifled, 369 mm

Magazine type: Box magazine

Sights: Mix of thermal and ACOG

Effective firing range: 500 yards

Action: Gas operated, rotating bolt

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

Congrats you've made a worse FG 42, and it's even less controllable.

[Rhodesialund]

I mean "tungsten core" is a bit vague. How much WA is in it? 20%? 40%? What's the material of the jacket or supplimenter of the core?
.30-06 AP uses a 163gr bullet, with a tuned steel core weighting 80 grains 785Hv
The standard Hv of WA is 1450
And a core for 6.5 should be ~ABOUT~ 48-55gr generally
So obviously it has more penetration

Also joules has not as much to do with penetration of armor here
And 6.5 grundle still isnt an intermediate or a full power
And it still is gay

The ESAPI plate was at 500 yards, to clarify that it wasn't a point blank penetration. The jacket is copper, or to be technical it is gilding metal. The actual core construction in his words is "rather simple, general core design." You might be right as to the core weight. As far as I know, it was a developmental load at first. Bill wouldn't comment any further than "it's for Mil/LEO customers."

At this point, a lot of the details are gonna be scarce other than "It can do this at these distances." We are wading into the world of obscure loads where private industries are experimenting with Tungsten, Tantalum, DU (Yes, actual Depleted Uranium, and no I am not lying),

And 6.5 Grendel is not gay, it's full on flaming fabulous. There's a difference.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

6 mm calibres with the exceptions of 6.5 mm Arisaka and 6.5 mm m/94 are all gay.

[Theodosiya]

SLAP 7.62x51mm... How rare is it?

[Rhodesialund]

SLAP 7.62x51mm... How rare is it?

You could buy them online as a private individual. Other than that, it's really not worth getting into SLAP until you start at 20mm cartridges or larger.

[Laritaia]

SLAP 7.62x51mm... How rare is it?

not common as far as i can tell it's only used in m240s and miniguns, and even then not often

[Rhodesialund]

6 mm calibres with the exceptions of 6.5 mm Arisaka and 6.5 mm m/94 are all gay.

It's okay, you are amongst friends and we accept you for who you are.

[Free-Don]

I use a 6.5x50mm as my standard cartridge. Mostly because I think my nation would focus on skrimeshes and accuracy rather than prolonged firefights and "stopping power."

[Rhodesialund]

I use a 6.5x50mm as my standard cartridge. Mostly because I think my nation would focus on skrimeshes and accuracy rather than prolonged firefights and "stopping power."

Doesn't matter the strategic or tactical methods, the same concept of "Intermediates and Full Powered" applies.

[Puzikas]

And it still is gay

Ur gay

It seems to me that I might as well just take the 6.5, make it WC, and give it to frontline troops who are most likely to confront quality armor. I've read a story about Murican soldiers using 5.56 in their ARs and fighting Taliban or whatever using Soviet rifles with larger cartridges. Supposedly the 5.56 couldn't compete and the soldiers were not able to fire back effectively. Now I haven't heard of any dreaded death reaper-esque Taliban marksmen, and militants in general don't strike me as expert marksmen.

However a professional army using heavier calibers could have a range advantage over me if I use 5.56. 6.5 seems like a way to even that out. So if I use WC 6.5 I get good range and good chances of penetration without excessive recoil or carry weight. I then institute a rigid marksmenship course in infantry training and bump up that hypothetical 20% to at least 25%, or higher with experienced troops. And then I leave full-fledged actual full power cartridges for the DMRs.

Say it with me miltech spergs


Infantry
Combat
Is
Predicated
On
Volume
Of
Fire

How much of a number wank is this thing?

T r a s h

6 mm calibres with the exceptions of 6.5 mm Arisaka and 6.5 mm m/94 are all gay.

This basically
But you forgot one 6.5

SLAP 7.62x51mm... How rare is it?

Extremely

Tungsten, Tantalum, DU (Yes, actual Depleted Uranium

I work really closely with cartridge companies and the FBI
I've seen footage this before, among others
Plus the USSR was doing DU rounds in 1980s
Way to catch up private industry

I use a 6.5x50mm as my standard cartridge. Mostly because I think my nation would focus on skrimeshes and accuracy rather than prolonged firefights and "stopping power."

Infantry
Combat
Is
Predicated
On
Volume
Of
Fire

[NeuPolska]

We've got machine guns for that no?

[Crookfur]

How much of a number wank is this thing?
Name: GER-7.62
Type: Assault Rifle

Magazine size: 30

Calibre: 7.62x54mmR

Length of gun: 3' 11"

Initial Muzzle Velocity: 1,000 m/s

RoF: 900 rds/min

Barrel: Rifled, 369 mm

Magazine type: Box magazine

Sights: Mix of thermal and ACOG

Effective firing range: 500 yards

Action: Gas operated, rotating bolt

A pile of made up nonsense with constantly changing units just annoy people?

Why such a short barrel in such a long gun? WTF is going on with the rest of the gun?

It's not as if the muzzle velocities for common rounds from various barrel lengths are hard to come by or is this one of these magic guns that makes ammo work super gooder than normal?



As for other thread thingies DU AP ammo was produced and tested fairly widely in the 80s and there are constant rumours that the US had enough DU 5.56mm ammo for some it to somehow reach the field in desert storm despite it never being type classified. I suspect the rumours are bollocks and based on the general desert storm du hype but the ammo certainly existed.

[Gallia-]

6 mm calibres with the exceptions of 6.5 mm Arisaka and 6.5 mm m/94 are all gay.

It's okay, you are amongst friends and we accept you for who you are.

He is right though.

6.5x55mm is the king.

[Rhodesialund]

I work really closely with cartridge companies and the FBI
I've seen footage this before, among others
Plus the USSR was doing DU rounds in 1980s
Way to catch up private industry

Not gonna disagree. Kinda hard to keep up as a private industry vs a state-capitalist system.

[Rhodesialund]

We've got machine guns for that no?

Volume of fire still applies. It applies to every infantryman/women/shi/xir/it.

[Gallia-]

DARPA did DU rounds in the 1960s.

Special Forces soldiers used some of them in Desert Storm.

http://highpowerrocketry.blogspot.com/2 ... nd-du.html

[NeuPolska]

We've got machine guns for that no?

Volume of fire still applies. It applies to every infantryman/women/shi/xir/it.

Well then using the 6.5 should be fine if I'm not using the Swedish as my main cartridge as it's not as recoil-intensive/weight-intensive as full power cartridges but offers extended range over the 5.56 and more accuracy, therefore allowing more fire onto a target because the bullet can now reach them and hit closer to them. Five or four rounds difference in magazine size isn't as large as a ten round difference anyway.

[Puzikas]

We've got machine guns for that no?

Machine Guns provide a base of fire
They are able to produce a constant, steady stream of fire which will act as the supressive element for the infantry unit on the move.
The infantryman does not produce casualties through some superior Musketry with well regimented and well disciplined order of fire. Superior marksmanship on the rifle range produces a more confident soldier, but ultimately the stresses of combat prove to be disorientating and intimidating. Unlike the rifle range the target is not an exact distance of 100, 200 or 300 meters, is not presented as a clearly defined black or blue or red outline against a white background, against a brown or tan or green environment in a static position. The actual target is an obscured, moving, and difficult to spot entity that sees you the same as you see them: mostly obscured by terrain, and totally obscured by your combat sight.
Ergo, the best way to produce casualties is to produce volumes of fire. The more shots you place into the vicinity of the enemy, the more likely you are to hit the enemy. If you do not hit the enemy, you are supressive the enemy, and thus preventing them from moving or firing back. This allows someone else to bring more fire to the target, which further suppresses them, or hits them and neutralizes them.