Infantry Discussion Thread 10: Shovel Edition [NO FWORDS]

[Gallia-]

*edible

jfc

[Puzikas]

"tradition" probably meaning they genuinely think they could get in a knife fight with someone.

Kukris are practical knives. FS knives are needless, limited in their utility and not even real fighting knives. A fighting knife should be able to cut and thrust equally well, be able to be held in a sabre grip well (aka not a thin round handle), and have a fairly substantial guard. The FS has none of these.

ripo commando
(Image)

If you want to try make your SF sneaky tacticool Hollywood ninjas with knives, give them knives with long-ish spike blades. Not short daggers or actual fighting knives. Get good UK

And how many years of practical knife fighting experience do you have Ford? What formal, or informal training?

I would be quite surprised if this thread had close to 60 combined fights between the few members here whove actually used a knife in "combat", and the bulk of those would probably be Puzzles.

Do you mean like, with knives?
I've been stabbed three times (occasion) and I've had knives pulled on me probably...10? 11 times? And none have ever gone well for anyone.
If you mean like fist fites I used to just do that for fun tbh
Combat is a helluva drug.

Fairbairn Fighting System is too fucking romantic though like every British thing of that era. "Ungentlemanly" concepts like attacking the face/groin/neck are literally part of war. Welcome to the pit, were going down.

Knives are dumb, hand to combat is dumb, and so are people who engage in it, because, as the saying goes, to have engaged in hand to hand combat the soldier must have misplaced Al his equipment and be in an environment in which no tools are immediately available, then locate a man on that same strip of land who has done the same, and choose to fight him.

[Ormata]

Do you mean like, with knives?
I've been stabbed three times (occasion) and I've had knives pulled on me probably...10? 11 times? And none have ever gone well for anyone.
If you mean like fist fites I used to just do that for fun tbh
Combat is a helluva drug.

Fairbairn Fighting System is too fucking romantic though like every British thing of that era. "Ungentlemanly" concepts like attacking the face/groin/neck are literally part of war. Welcome to the pit, were going down.

Knives are dumb, hand to combat is dumb, and so are people who engage in it, because, as the saying goes, to have engaged in hand to hand combat the soldier must have misplaced Al his equipment and be in an environment in which no tools are immediately available, then locate a man on that same strip of land who has done the same, and choose to fight him.

You are one helluva Slav and I mean that as a compliment.

[Laritaia]

i don't think the Fairbairn System is actually taught to the Royal Marines, they just carry the knives because it's literally their symbol and it's a better knife then the SA80 bayonet could ever dream of being.

ie the exact same reasons the Gurkhas carry the khukuri


not because they expect to go all Vernon Wells at the end of Commando

[Puzikas]

How long a blade would one need to have to kill someone in this manner? And how thick could it get before the blade becomes too un-stabby? From say 4:45 on.

I'm wondering if a Fairbairn-Sykes would be too short, and a Smatchet too wide.

Probable trauma:
Severance of Brachiocephallic
Perforation of plural space, resulting in Pneumothorax
Puncture of upper lobe of lung, resulting in haemopneumothorax
Damage to Myocardial
Potential damage to Aorta
Probable damage of Common Carotid

Loss of blood: 5-6L/Min
LOC: Less than 10 seconds
Impossible to revive

You only need to get a wound about 13cm deep in the right spot to sever the Brachiocephallic. I would prefer a large thickness blade to a narrow long one in this instance to ensure damage to as many systems as possible. That particular position and angle of entry however is beyond optimal.

[Ti Bwar]

Could someone identify these two vehicles for me:

[Laritaia]

they're norkie TELs

based on T55 hulls

[Fordorsia]

How long a blade would one need to have to kill someone in this manner? And how thick could it get before the blade becomes too un-stabby? From say 4:45 on.

I'm wondering if a Fairbairn-Sykes would be too short, and a Smatchet too wide.

Probable trauma:
Severance of Brachiocephallic
Perforation of plural space, resulting in Pneumothorax
Puncture of upper lobe of lung, resulting in haemopneumothorax
Damage to Myocardial
Potential damage to Aorta
Probable damage of Common Carotid

Loss of blood: 5-6L/Min
LOC: Less than 10 seconds
Impossible to revive

You only need to get a wound about 13cm deep in the right spot to sever the Brachiocephallic. I would prefer a large thickness blade to a narrow long one in this instance to ensure damage to as many systems as possible. That particular position and angle of entry however is beyond optimal.

I already said all this stop stealing credit

[Kouralia]

Fighting Dagger

dolfin knef

dolfin knef is for sailors and expeditionary infantry

fighting dagger is for commandos

smatchet and E-Tool is for every ground combatant

Naval Commando Infantrymen thus carry... Bayonet, Commando Dagger, Dolfin Knef, Smatchet and E-Tool.

Smatchet stays on your person, ETOOL goes with any packs you have. Usually you strap it to the pack as is, because how do you expect to dig your hasty fighting position, your entrenched fighting position, or in that case, anything else important?

mmm

just add bayonet attachments to a Smatchet

now that's just silly

How long a blade would one need to have to kill someone in this manner? And how thick could it get before the blade becomes too un-stabby? From say 4:45 on.

I'm wondering if a Fairbairn-Sykes would be too short, and a Smatchet too wide.

Probable trauma:
Severance of Brachiocephallic
Perforation of plural space, resulting in Pneumothorax
Puncture of upper lobe of lung, resulting in haemopneumothorax
Damage to Myocardial
Potential damage to Aorta
Probable damage of Common Carotid

Loss of blood: 5-6L/Min
LOC: Less than 10 seconds
Impossible to revive

You only need to get a wound about 13cm deep in the right spot to sever the Brachiocephallic. I would prefer a large thickness blade to a narrow long one in this instance to ensure damage to as many systems as possible. That particular position and angle of entry however is beyond optimal.

How suboptimal is suboptimal? Like, 'cruelly inefficient' or just 'there are better ways of killing someone'? And are you aware of any other potential execution methods that could be used in the field with a 13-inch knife that aren't 'just cut their throat' and are more 'execution-y'?

I'm considering whether there ought to be a traditional/prescribed way of executing slavers, pirates etc. in the field, and shooting them is traditionally reserved for 'honourable' people.

[Fordorsia]

If slavers and pirates and stuff are hated as much as each other in your nation, why execute any of them? Cut off their hands so they can't bare arms against anyone ever again.

[Kouralia]

If slavers and pirates and stuff are hated as much as each other in your nation, why execute any of them? Cut off their hands so they can't bare arms against anyone ever again.

Because sometimes on campaign you just need to hold field executions.

[Fordorsia]

If slavers and pirates and stuff are hated as much as each other in your nation, why execute any of them? Cut off their hands so they can't bare arms against anyone ever again.

Because sometimes on campaign you just need to hold field executions.

Drive a spike through the top of their head? Splay them out and drive spikes through the feet and hands pinning them to the ground? Good old fashioned slow hanging? A head box thing that as you crank it twists their head all the way around?

[Crookfur]

IIRC the bottom of the neck to the heart stab was one of the common mercy strokes/coup de grace methods although how much of that was to do with armour gaps/joints rather than a guaranteed rapid ending of pain i'm not sure.

Regardless in a western/European back ground nation it's typically not going to be associated with executions as much as it would with an honourable death type scenario. Of course if the whole attitude towards an execution is that it should be as quick, business like and impersonal with no special ceremony then it might make more sense.

[Puzikas]

How suboptimal is suboptimal? Like, 'cruelly inefficient' or just 'there are better ways of killing someone'?

English is hard
I mean "That position is so optimal that it's excessive"

[Rhodesialund]

*edible

jfc

Thank you for correcting my grammar.

[Dostanuot Loj]

You make this judgement based on what criteria?

Based on how the most popular kind of utility-fighting knife came about. The bowie knife started out as a single knife which was basically a long straight blade with a drop point. For over 60 years it evolved into what it is today, a long-ish blade with a pronounced clip point and often an acceptable guard. These are the best features of a knife meant for fighting with. For you average Englishman and American from the 1830s to late 1800s, the bowie knife was the sidearm of your average dood. This is including the US Civil War, which is when you got what are essentially super-bowies, the very large d-guard examples. The vast majority of infantrymen couldn't afford pistols, so they carried large actual fighting knives instead. Helped that they were fantastic utility knives also.

The most popular fighting knife in human history is not the Bowie knife, it's a shiv.

Much of that is probably irrelevant, I dunno. But the point is that the bowie knife evolved very quickly into what is essentially the best fighting knife in history (not counting very particular one off examples and stuff). It's often fairly large, it's has good cutting ability depending on how deep and curved the belly is, and with a large enough clip point, it has fantastic thrusting ability. Just a guy having experience in judo and serving in a police force for long enough to supposedly have 600 "deadly encounters" whatever that actually means, doesn't overrule how the most popular knives for in the world for fighting evolved.

The Bowie is quite literally a trend, it was right from the start. Or do you mean the knife Bowie personally used? The latter was literally a hunting knife that would not fit your initial description.
Discrediting someone's real life experience because you follow a trend is terrible Ford. Again, you have no basis from which to make these claims except your own aesthetics, which is perfectly fine as long as you're not trying to pass this off as actual fact without any real backing.

As I said, this is pretty vague. What's a deadly encounter? What weapons were involved? What was the context? Being a police officer at the time he could have been using anything from a stick to a sabre to a pistol in any one of these situations. He was there for 20 years. I'd like to see how many violent incidents a modern police officer in a rough city would rack up in that time.

33 years, not 20. And the fact that these are likely a large variety of encounters is the point, he had experience in what he spoke about.
You can easily look into the history of policing of the area if you like, it was significantly more dangerous for police than modern day first world countries. Even the US is a far safer place.

The success, or "success" of the FS knife is more about what he did and taught with it rather than what others did with it. He made the techniques for his own knife after all.

The same is true for Old West proponents of the Bowie knife, FYI.

In fact, in a real knife fight, any kind of positive training is an automatic leg up, the actual type of knife rarely matters.

-the man himself

I guess he never heard of swords, bats, spears or guns.

Or he has practical experience that actually exists, unlike you?

Do you mean like, with knives?

Yes, we're talking knives Puzzles.

I've been stabbed three times (occasion) and I've had knives pulled on me probably...10? 11 times? And none have ever gone well for anyone.

I would have expected more considering your deployments. But yea, nobody really wins in a knife fight.
Although for the record, I'm one for one, and that's a weird story.

If you mean like fist fites I used to just do that for fun tbh
Combat is a helluva drug.

First rule of fight club is...

Fairbairn Fighting System is too fucking romantic though like every British thing of that era. "Ungentlemanly" concepts like attacking the face/groin/neck are literally part of war. Welcome to the pit, were going down.

I wholeheartedly agree. My entire argument with Ford is about how he basis his beliefs on zero reality but claims it is.

Knives are dumb, hand to combat is dumb, and so are people who engage in it, because, as the saying goes, to have engaged in hand to hand combat the soldier must have misplaced Al his equipment and be in an environment in which no tools are immediately available, then locate a man on that same strip of land who has done the same, and choose to fight him.

But didn't you just say you engaged in hand to hand combat for fun Puzzles?

[Purpelia]

But didn't you just say you engaged in hand to hand combat for fun Puzzles?

Fun things are often stupid and stupid things are often fun. Its the human condition.

[Dostanuot Loj]

But didn't you just say you engaged in hand to hand combat for fun Puzzles?

Fun things are often stupid and stupid things are often fun. Its the human condition.

If it's stupid but it works, it's not stupid.
If it's stupid but fun, it's not stupid.
If it's stupid and neither works nor is fun, why would you bother?

[Puzikas]

I would have expected more considering your deployments

I have encountered people with knives but they either dropped them very quickly upon realizing that they do not win against rifles or were filled with holes upon menacing with said knife at distance.
I was genuinely shot at more than I was threatened with knives in close contact

But didn't you just say you engaged in hand to hand combat for fun Puzzles?

And I am an idiot for doing it

[Austrasien]

Puz vs. Stairs

Stairs: 1
Puz: 0

[Kouralia]

How suboptimal is suboptimal? Like, 'cruelly inefficient' or just 'there are better ways of killing someone'?

English is hard
I mean "That position is so optimal that it's excessive"

Ah, okay. So a 10 inch knife there is a good way of killing someone?

[Kazarogkai]

If slavers and pirates and stuff are hated as much as each other in your nation, why execute any of them? Cut off their hands so they can't bare arms against anyone ever again.

Meh in Kazarogkai back when they were still executing people used to just tie people up to a pole and stab em in the gut with a spear and leave them to die. if they were still alive after a week(5 days) their sentence would be "commuted" to permanent banishment.

[Laywenrania]

If slavers and pirates and stuff are hated as much as each other in your nation, why execute any of them? Cut off their hands so they can't bare arms against anyone ever again.

Meh in Kazarogkai back when they were still executing people used to just tie people up to a pole and stab em in the gut with a spear and leave them to die. if they were still alive after a week(5 days) their sentence would be "commuted" to permanent banishment.

I think the problem with surviving 5 days is dehydration?

[-Celibrae-]

If slavers and pirates and stuff are hated as much as each other in your nation, why execute any of them? Cut off their hands so they can't bare arms against anyone ever again.

Meh in Kazarogkai back when they were still executing people used to just tie people up to a pole and stab em in the gut with a spear and leave them to die. if they were still alive after a week(5 days) their sentence would be "commuted" to permanent banishment.

With the spear still in, or?

[Gallia-]

He means a penis surely.

Gallan bees are notoriously pokey.