Infantry Discussion Thread 10: Shovel Edition [NO FWORDS]

[Zozon]

Asking you to not wank off in peoples' faces is perfectly reasonable

It wasn't a wank you idiot.

Either constructive critcism or gtfo.

I would have long ago guessed that you were trolling me...but I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. Now I'm starting to think you actually are trolling.

[Fordorsia]

[Zozon]

(Image)

You haven't gone a day without an accident? I can see that, considering you just made another one.

You simply don't get it, I've tried explaining it and you still don't get it.

[Federated Kingdom of Prussia]

Either constructive critcism or gtfo.

Here's constructive criticism: throw literally everything out and start from scratch if you want anyone here to take you seriously.

By your original post about 'badass soldiers' and 'super scary armor' as well as your responses to our responses, I'm going to guess you're a 14 year old male who just finished playing the latest Call of Duty.

[Crookfur]

The thing is most people don't mention how super bad ass shooters thier special forces are because its something that should be more or less taken for granted amoungst such units.

If it's all about the human then focus on the men and how you find those special individuals who are willing to kick a door down and enter a darkened room full of potential death. Believe it or not it's finding those individuals that's the hard part, just about anyone can be trained to do the drills and react accordingly.

With special ops it's invariably about the man not the gear and it's never about wading through rivers of bullets.

You might also want to double check some things, IIRC at small arms scales tungsten carbide is the better penetrator material than depleted uranium which doesn't really get it's edge until you start talking saboted medium calibre cannon ammunition. The AP round also won't be tipped but have a core of the hardened penetrator material with a jacket of softer metal so the bullet can grip the rifling.

Edit: nice article from the late and much missed weaponsman on attitude vs training:

http://weaponsman.com/?p=39875

[The Akasha Colony]

In your view it's wanking. Did you read anything I said? Did you read my factbook at all? If you did, you would know why I chose this particular type of soldier. If you didn't well then you're just laughing without having done any investigation, which is retarded not smart.

Your factbook is just a few lines about "muh human supremacy," whatever that means. It says literally nothing about why a nation that wants the "Human Spirit" to "thrive" would choose a set of sci-fi cliches that would make even Tom Clancy blush.

And akasha, I said the design SPECS are not far off. They already are developing the nano-fiber tech. The aesthetics such as "scary armor" are fictional and they're allowed to be, because 1. this is a fictional game and 2. because it's my f*cking nation and not yours.

They're quite far off if they ever come at all. No one's going after "uranium-tipped bullets" or magic armor. But that's not really the problem.

The problem is that it comes together in a rather wanktastic description about how great and wonderful your soldiers are because they have their magic power armor that lets them carry everything and renders them immune to everything but headshots. And your special forces that evidently love their pistols and are supposed to be so great at killing people despite having all the tactical skill of a ten-year-old playing Halo.

If you want to improve it, you might want to take an actual look at how militaries operate in counter-insurgency situations, how they choose their equipment, and how they plan their operations. It tends to involve a lot less "charge right into those enemy positions and gun down every enemy inside [with pistols]" and a lot more careful planning. Less flashy power armor and pistols and more attention to whether a new piece of technology is reliable or useful enough to bother with. Militaries are usually behind the absolute cutting edge and this is intentional; properly testing a given piece of technology to the point it is reliable and proven enough for soldiers to risk their lives using it takes time.

And by "actual look" I mean read some real sources written by professionals, rather than play some more Metal Gear Solid or Call of Duty.

A more neutral presentation that doesn't focus on how "bad ass" and "scary looking" they are, or how they're "masters of all kinds of pistols" or how they "cannot be stopped with bullets" while they "gracefully aim at record speeds" would also be welcome. There is a natural inclination to take exception whenever someone comes in bragging about how great and cool and 1337 their troops are that tends to immediately start things off poorly.

I don't think you even know what criteria even are. It isn't even criteria, it's not even a main point. It was just a side point. The opinion of the state. I didn't state it as truth. For f*cks sake.

That is an interesting criticism to make.

You literally said the government chooses to have soldiers march in their gear because it looks "bad ass" and the armor is "scary looking." This implies that one of their criteria in making this decision was the desire to look "bad ass." Your sentence directly implies a causal relationship between the "scary looking" armor and the government's decision to have them march in it.

[Zozon]

Either constructive critcism or gtfo.

Here's constructive criticism: throw literally everything out and start from scratch if you want anyone here to take you seriously.

By your original post about 'badass soldiers' and 'super scary armor' as well as your responses to our responses, I'm going to guess you're a 14 year old male who just finished playing the latest Call of Duty.

No, I'm a 22 year old with Aspergers.

Screw you. I'm done with this fucking thread.

You should all be fucking ashamed of yourselves. People like you make others who don't quite fit the social norms miserable. I've tried so damn hard for almost 10 years now to improve myself. And I've found great success in it. But I still have a lapse every once in a while. And it's heartbreaking to be punished for something I've put all my effort into erasing.

[Fordorsia]

If you'd have read the OP, hopefully you'd have expected criticism.

[Zozon]

If you'd have read the OP, hopefully you'd have expected criticism.

Not mockery. There is a huge emphasis on constructive critcism and respect on this website. Why should I expect this thread to be any different? Destructive criticism is not the only kind of critcism so I have every right to expect it to be constructive critcism.

[Zozon]

The thing is most people don't mention how super bad ass shooters thier special forces are because its something that should be more or less taken for granted amoungst such units.

If it's all about the human then focus on the men and how you find those special individuals who are willing to kick a door down and enter a darkened room full of potential death. Believe it or not it's finding those individuals that's the hard part, just about anyone can be trained to do the drills and react accordingly.

With special ops it's invariably about the man not the gear and it's never about wading through rivers of bullets.

You might also want to double check some things, IIRC at small arms scales tungsten carbide is the better penetrator material than depleted uranium which doesn't really get it's edge until you start talking saboted medium calibre cannon ammunition. The AP round also won't be tipped but have a core of the hardened penetrator material with a jacket of softer metal so the bullet can grip the rifling.

Edit: nice article from the late and much missed weaponsman on attitude vs training:

http://weaponsman.com/?p=39875

This ^ is what constructive criticism looks like. Learn from it. If I have aspergers and know what the hell it is, then you have zero excuses for the hostility and not being able to do it yourself. I don't care if I should expect criticism that doesn't justify being an asswipe.

So thank you Crookfur for not devolving and stooping to the others' levels

[Fordorsia]

Why should I expect this thread to be any different?

Because the real world doesn't go out of its way to cater for you.

You posted stuff without reading the OP. People gave you brief negative feedback. You took it badly for no reason, opening yourself up to harsh criticism. Just another day at the IDT office.

[The Akasha Colony]

No, I'm a 22 year old with Aspergers.

Screw you. I'm done with this fucking thread.

You should all be fucking ashamed of yourselves. People like you make others who don't quite fit the social norms miserable. I've tried so damn hard for almost 10 years now to improve myself. And I've found great success in it. But I still have a lapse every once in a while. And it's heartbreaking to be punished for something I've put all my effort into erasing.

It's not like this thread is a particularly good example of "social norms."

It doesn't even have anything in particular to do with you, either.

The reason why people responded the way they did is because we've already seen this lots of times. From lots of people. Rather often. So it's not new, nor it is a particular problem with you or you not improving yourself. And it's happened so much that the immediate reaction is usually more eye-rolling followed by canned one-liners that people have saved up to make the other regulars chuckle.

All you did was happen upon a lot of common sci-fi tropes, which are cliched for a reason (they're common). And then get defensive about it when it was pointed out. Which is also common. And then get defensive about the criticism not matching your idealized notions. Which is also common, too.

And it should be pointed out that "because it's my nation" or "because it's PMT" and such are not good arguments in any of the military-related threads. The people in these threads generally don't like working around the arbitrary restrictions of "it's my nation" to force them to suspend their disbelief. It's tedious to have responses dismissed for arbitrary reasons, so most won't bother with it beyond fairly cursory responses to see if it's worth going any further.

[Zozon]

Why should I expect this thread to be any different?

Because the real world doesn't go out of its way to cater for you.

You posted stuff without reading the OP. People gave you brief negative feedback. You took it badly for no reason, opening yourself up to harsh criticism. Just another day at the IDT office.

I have every right to not let you step on my foot. It was mockery, telling me I'm a 14 year old playing CoD is not fucking feedback. And I DID read the OP. It should be fairly obvious considering I already quoted the OP three different times. You're not very bright are you?

No, I'm a 22 year old with Aspergers.

Screw you. I'm done with this fucking thread.

You should all be fucking ashamed of yourselves. People like you make others who don't quite fit the social norms miserable. I've tried so damn hard for almost 10 years now to improve myself. And I've found great success in it. But I still have a lapse every once in a while. And it's heartbreaking to be punished for something I've put all my effort into erasing.

It's not like this thread is a particularly good example of "social norms."

It doesn't even have anything in particular to do with you, either.

The reason why people responded the way they did is because we've already seen this lots of times. From lots of people. Rather often. So it's not new, nor it is a particular problem with you or you not improving yourself. And it's happened so much that the immediate reaction is usually more eye-rolling followed by canned one-liners that people have saved up to make the other regulars chuckle.

All you did was happen upon a lot of common sci-fi tropes, which are cliched for a reason (they're common). And then get defensive about it when it was pointed out. Which is also common. And then get defensive about the criticism not matching your idealized notions. Which is also common, too.

And it should be pointed out that "because it's my nation" or "because it's PMT" and such are not good arguments in any of the military-related threads. The people in these threads generally don't like working around the arbitrary restrictions of "it's my nation" to force them to suspend their disbelief. It's tedious to have responses dismissed for arbitrary reasons, so most won't bother with it beyond fairly cursory responses to see if it's worth going any further.

I see. I wish you'd said this earlier.

[Gallia-]

The thing is most people don't mention how super bad ass shooters thier special forces are because its something that should be more or less taken for granted amoungst such units.

If it's all about the human then focus on the men and how you find those special individuals who are willing to kick a door down and enter a darkened room full of potential death. Believe it or not it's finding those individuals that's the hard part, just about anyone can be trained to do the drills and react accordingly.

With special ops it's invariably about the man not the gear and it's never about wading through rivers of bullets.

You might also want to double check some things, IIRC at small arms scales tungsten carbide is the better penetrator material than depleted uranium which doesn't really get it's edge until you start talking saboted medium calibre cannon ammunition. The AP round also won't be tipped but have a core of the hardened penetrator material with a jacket of softer metal so the bullet can grip the rifling.

Edit: nice article from the late and much missed weaponsman on attitude vs training:

http://weaponsman.com/?p=39875

WHA is used for small arms because...I don't actually know the reasons. Maybe it's difficult to machine DU down to 5.56mm without it burst into flames? I can't see that being serious since the advent of advanced metalworking has more or less eliminated the pyrophoric effects of uranium while machining penetrators, though, unlike in WW2.

Small arms DU sabots were used in Desert Storm. TRW had some .50 BMG DU SLAP ammo in the '60s, which apparently persisted through the '80s and got fed into Barret rifles in the Gulf War by Army Special Forces. Or maybe they just made some new ammo. Something like that? Back when Men Were Men and had only the shirts on their backs, the caps on their heads, and the M16A1 held together with twine and harsh language. Whatever. Anyway, the eponymous "They" (aka DARPA) were hoping post penetration pyrophoricity might help the penetrators better destroy ~whatever~. Since it's America it's also sitting on literal truckloads of DU. That probably helped too.

There used to be old Army videos of the post penetration effects of the .50 BMG DU penetrator on Youtube. I think "Dtn" or "Rroan" linked them in one of the earlier incarnations of this thread a couple years ago. They're probably gone now.

Those are the smallest I'm aware of anyway.

[Taihei Tengoku]

The thing is most people don't mention how super bad ass shooters thier special forces are because its something that should be more or less taken for granted amoungst such units.

If it's all about the human then focus on the men and how you find those special individuals who are willing to kick a door down and enter a darkened room full of potential death. Believe it or not it's finding those individuals that's the hard part, just about anyone can be trained to do the drills and react accordingly.

With special ops it's invariably about the man not the gear and it's never about wading through rivers of bullets.

You might also want to double check some things, IIRC at small arms scales tungsten carbide is the better penetrator material than depleted uranium which doesn't really get it's edge until you start talking saboted medium calibre cannon ammunition. The AP round also won't be tipped but have a core of the hardened penetrator material with a jacket of softer metal so the bullet can grip the rifling.

Edit: nice article from the late and much missed weaponsman on attitude vs training:

http://weaponsman.com/?p=39875

rest in peace weaponsman :(

[The Akasha Colony]

I have every right to not let you step on my foot. It was mockery, telling me I'm a 14 year old playing CoD is not fucking feedback. And I DID read the OP. It should be fairly obvious considering I already quoted the OP three different times. You're not very bright are you?

Ford is an ass to everyone but you're giving him what he wants by responding.

I see. I wish you'd said this earlier.

There was hardly a reason to until it turned into an argument.

[Fordorsia]

Ford is an ass to everyone but you're giving him what he wants by responding.

Only to people who deserve it


So yeah pretty much everyone

[Gallia-]

Because the real world doesn't go out of its way to cater for you.

You posted stuff without reading the OP. People gave you brief negative feedback. You took it badly for no reason, opening yourself up to harsh criticism. Just another day at the IDT office.

I have every right to not let you step on my foot. It was mockery, telling me I'm a 14 year old playing CoD is not fucking feedback. And I DID read the OP. It should be fairly obvious considering I already quoted the OP three different times. You're not very bright are you?

How to do deal with the entity "Frod" aka "Fraud" aka "Fordorsia":

Step 1) Click green "Fordorsia" at top of post.
Step 2) Click "Add Foe" underneath "Registered Users"
Step 3) Problem no more

[Fordorsia]

I have every right to not let you step on my foot. It was mockery, telling me I'm a 14 year old playing CoD is not fucking feedback. And I DID read the OP. It should be fairly obvious considering I already quoted the OP three different times. You're not very bright are you?

How to do deal with the entity "Frod" aka "Fraud" aka "Fordorsia":

Step 1) Click green "Fordorsia" at top of post.
Step 2) Click "Add Foe" underneath "Registered Users"
Step 3) Problem no more

How come you haven't blocked me? Do you like me after all?

[Taihei Tengoku]

Sometimes I click "display this post" on ford posts and every time I regret it

[Crookfur]

The thing is most people don't mention how super bad ass shooters thier special forces are because its something that should be more or less taken for granted amoungst such units.

If it's all about the human then focus on the men and how you find those special individuals who are willing to kick a door down and enter a darkened room full of potential death. Believe it or not it's finding those individuals that's the hard part, just about anyone can be trained to do the drills and react accordingly.

With special ops it's invariably about the man not the gear and it's never about wading through rivers of bullets.

You might also want to double check some things, IIRC at small arms scales tungsten carbide is the better penetrator material than depleted uranium which doesn't really get it's edge until you start talking saboted medium calibre cannon ammunition. The AP round also won't be tipped but have a core of the hardened penetrator material with a jacket of softer metal so the bullet can grip the rifling.

Edit: nice article from the late and much missed weaponsman on attitude vs training:

http://weaponsman.com/?p=39875

WHA is used for small arms because...I don't actually know the reasons. Maybe it's difficult to machine DU down to 5.56mm without it burst into flames? I can't see that being serious since the advent of advanced metalworking has more or less eliminated the pyrophoric effects of uranium while machining penetrators, though, unlike in WW2.

Small arms DU sabots were used in Desert Storm. TRW had some .50 BMG DU SLAP ammo in the '60s, which apparently persisted through the '80s and got fed into Barret rifles in the Gulf War by Army Special Forces. Or maybe they just made some new ammo. Something like that? Back when Men Were Men and had only the shirts on their backs, the caps on their heads, and the M16A1 held together with twine and harsh language. Whatever. Anyway, the eponymous "They" (aka DARPA) were hoping post penetration pyrophoricity might help the penetrators better destroy ~whatever~. Since it's America it's also sitting on literal truckloads of DU. That probably helped too.

There used to be old Army videos of the post penetration effects of the .50 BMG DU penetrator on Youtube. I think "Dtn" or "Rroan" linked them in one of the earlier incarnations of this thread a couple years ago. They're probably gone now.

Those are the smallest I'm aware of anyway.

I was under the vague impression that WC just had slightly better properties fir the kind of armour interactions typical of small arms namely hardness. But there might also be political and public relations issues.

[Fordorsia]

Sometimes I click "display this post" on ford posts and every time I regret it

who even r u

[Federated Kingdom of Prussia]

Speaking of OP, can I have my name changed on the OP? 'SPA 502' isn't a name I've gone by in a long, long time.

[Husseinarti]

Speaking of OP, can I have my name changed on the OP? 'SPA 502' isn't a name I've gone by in a long, long time.

its been like 2 weeks

[Puzikas]

What happened

Also no