Infantry Discussion Thread 10: Shovel Edition [NO FWORDS]

[Dostanuot Loj]

I have read that the open-sided design of the Chauchat’s magazine contributed significantly to failures associated with that weapon. Why did the Lewis, with its open magazine, not suffer from similar malfunctions?

As others have said, the Chauchat's issues are massively overblown. And the open sided magazine was fine when it was not just slogged into the mud. Unfortunately it was often slogged into the mud, but even then it did not cause as many issues as often reported. And what issues it did cause were minor enough that the French did not warrant a change, and instead opted to keep the magazine capacity visible to the assistant gunner so he could hand magazines to the gunner as they ran out.

On a side note: French infantry group crossing fields in 1918 armed with Chauchats and RSC 1917s, riding in converted Schneider tanks used as APCs and supported by FT17s. Glory.
Vive la France.

[Fordorsia]

"If you get mud all over the chauchat it will stop working just like every gun. That makes it bad"

[Puzikas]

The recoil is super fun otoh
Also its ergonomics are
Just
So
Meh

[Polvokia]

Wasn't there also problems with parts interchangeability with the Chauchat as well or am I thinking of a different weapon?

[Crookfur]

Gayla is being especially helpful today.

Question: Was it just as common through the age of musketry and the world wars to turn your rifle around and club people with the butt as it was to bayonet them?

It varied over time. Prior to the bayonet it was very common and there is a notable difference in the rhobustness of stocks prior and post the full introduction of the socket bayonnet.

Once we have bayonnets it largely disappears from "formal" battlefields as the bayonet works so much better in formation. Using the stock does persist in countless small desperate actions due to bayonets getting broken, more room to actually swing the gun being available and the inclusion of troops without bayonets because they are using civilian or specialist pieces (rifles).

It further drops off but never entirely disappears through the advent of the repeating firearm and still exists to this day.

[Gallia-]

gaylayla and I best buds

No.

You would know if we were.

Gayla is being especially helpful today.

Question: Was it just as common through the age of musketry and the world wars to turn your rifle around and club people with the butt as it was to bayonet them?

It varied over time. Prior to the bayonet it was very common and there is a notable difference in the rhobustness of stocks prior and post the full introduction of the socket bayonnet.

Once we have bayonnets it largely disappears from "formal" battlefields as the bayonet works so much better in formation. Using the stock does persist in countless small desperate actions due to bayonets getting broken, more room to actually swing the gun being available and the inclusion of troops without bayonets because they are using civilian or specialist pieces (rifles).

It further drops off but never entirely disappears through the advent of the repeating firearm and still exists to this day.

Bayonet use is asymptotic.

Never stop training for it is the obvious answer. ;_;

[New Korongo]

Thank you all for the insightful information regarding the Chauchat. I was aware that most of the negativity surrounding the weapon stemmed from the American version, but I was also under the impression that there were issues surrounding the magazine design on all variants. I will certainly read Honour Bound: Chauchat Machine Rifle and Proud Promise: French Autoloading Rifles 1898-1979 if I ever get my hands on them. My question arose when I was considering a fictional post-war redesign of the Lewis for the Korongolese Army’s first general issue light machine gun. I had been wondering if the introduction of a closed pan magazine was warranted as a one of the modifications.

[Puzikas]

The chauchats biggest failing was basically that it was no as refined as it's end-war and post war counterparts. While they almost certainly were used into WWII by Partizans, the BAR was more refined, the Madsen was more used and more effective, the FM-24/29 was more (elan), and as a result no one remembers that the chauchat was, you know, good in it's contemporary.

The only TRUE issue I know of is that the springs, due to the magazine feed shape and position, wore and caught often. In theory the .30-06 Chauchat should have been better, but it simply wasn't manufactured well.

Not at all related, here's some numbers:

On April 6, 1917, the United States had in its inventory:
670 Hotchkiss M1909 Benét–Mercié machine guns
262 M1904 Maxim Machineguns
143 M1895 "Potato Digger" Colt-Browning Machine Guns
353 M1914 Lewis Guns

An order was placed 12 April 1917 for 1,300 additional Lewis Machineguns, and, though still waiting and having had ordered them, the US did not receive the Vickers Machineguns yet. Savage Arms offered 1,300 reworked for .30-06, and not a single one was actually even TESTED before the Army bought them. In May 1917, a formal inquiry and testing was preformed by the War Department, called the United States Machine Gun Board. The Lewis was tested and did well; the Army ordered 2,500, the Navy and Marines 9,270, and the Army requested a lightened, striped version, and then ordered 47,000 of these.

The Colt Firearms Mfg. Hartford plant turned out 9327 Browning 1917 machine Guns, plus 7,502 Aircraft versions. Westinghouse and Remington producing 71,019 Browning 1917 models was a huge plus.

[Federated Kingdom of Prussia]

Any idea what happened here? The guy doesn't look like he was wearing a helmet, but it looks like maybe the bullet just skimmed his face while the tracer component flew off? Maybe?

[Gallia-]

Any idea what happened here?

It probably ricocheted off his skull.

e: Similar.

This is why you aim for the chest.

That dude probably has a broken cheekbone though.

The most obviously qualified person to answer this is Puzikas though.

[Husseinarti]

Any idea what happened here? The guy doesn't look like he was wearing a helmet, but it looks like maybe the bullet just skimmed his face while the tracer component flew off? Maybe?

allah all praise to him protected that man

allah akabar

[Aldina]

In a setting equivalent to 1935-1940, at what level would it be a good idea to issue rifle grenade launchers? Specifically the Schießbecher type. Basically, in what sub-unit is the position of rifle grenadier?

[Federated Kingdom of Prussia]

In a setting equivalent to 1935-1940, at what level would it be a good idea to issue rifle grenade launchers? Specifically the Schießbecher type. Basically, in what sub-unit is the position of rifle grenadier?

They should be freely available at the squad level. Here is an old rundown I did of a fantasy panzergrenadier squad; out of ten soldiers, two have rifle grenade launchers. Here is another one(by someone a lot more knowledgeable than me) with a lot of context as well.

But, you want lots of firepower in a WWII timescale.

Any idea what happened here?

It probably ricocheted off his skull.

e: Similar.

This is why you aim for the chest.

That dude probably has a broken cheekbone though.

The most obviously qualified person to answer this is Puzikas though.

Did the entire bullet ricochet? I wouldn't imagine a full-power round would ricochet off a skull. Maybe the bullet only grazed him and tumbled.

[Husseinarti]

In a setting equivalent to 1935-1940, at what level would it be a good idea to issue rifle grenade launchers? Specifically the Schießbecher type. Basically, in what sub-unit is the position of rifle grenadier?

Normally rifle grenadiers are dudes in the squad by this time. Either a designated position or the weapon is issued to whoever does it well.

[Puzikas]

Holy fuck that was cool.

I mean I have a bunch of guesses. It looks like, though, the bullet struck him at an angle which prompted deflection and fragmentation, and what you're seeing there is the tracer core deflecting away.
I have seen bullets bounce off skulls but we're talking Chechnya 1995, not American surgical theater 2015. It's not normal or common, and it's extremely unlikely to be something repeatable.

He is probably in a world of hurt, but also possible is that the round is actually bouncing off of the barrel of his rifle.

allah all praise to him protected that man

allah akabar

Also probably this almost certainly.

In a setting equivalent to 1935-1940, at what level would it be a good idea to issue rifle grenade launchers? Specifically the Schießbecher type. Basically, in what sub-unit is the position of rifle grenadier?

Basically every infantry platoon had the ability to project rifle grenades by WWII, among several men.

[Gallia-]

Any idea what happened here? The guy doesn't look like he was wearing a helmet, but it looks like maybe the bullet just skimmed his face while the tracer component flew off? Maybe?

allah all praise to him protected that man

allah akabar

No, he just rolled a natch 20.

[Rhodesialund]

Annnnd Gun Jesus just did a video on the Vodka powered space machinery known as the AN-94.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtMssTSnRHU

[Puzikas]

Brings me back.

>Slams gun on table

Ian no there's an easier way to do that

[Taihei Tengoku]

Forgotten Weapons AN-94 video

e: didn't realize i was ninjad because i have rhodesialund blocked

[Union Of Krigeinbrung]

Very quick question can you talk about your nations solders or it's equipment only?

[Taihei Tengoku]

Very quick question can you talk about your nations solders or it's equipment only?

both

[Purpelia]

Call me crazy but I no longer like the AN-94. It's just too complex and thus has way too many potential places to fail. Plus, like can you imagine cleaning that after a mud test?

[Theodosiya]

What weaponry and gear assault engineer battalion would have? And what formation would have them?

[Laritaia]

What weaponry and gear assault engineer battalion would have? And what formation would have them?

Shovels

[Theodosiya]

Allanea mentions them as heavily armed amd armored guys who rides in heavily armed and armored IFV, dropped near the objective and blow stuff up.