Infantry Discussion Thread 10: Shovel Edition [NO FWORDS]

[Fordorsia]

I didn't say it fires slow

AA mount has a 1000 round belt just too keep up bro

A single M2HB does 600 rpm, I don't see how a rip off of a French WWI machine gun who could hardly do better than 450 can churn out the necessary rates that would be required to engage WWII aircraft, esp when it's as oversized as it is.

M2HB isn't a scaled up MG 15

[Federated Kingdom of Prussia]

Did a battalion REALLY have that many surgeons in the Prussian tradition? I know only the Russian and french usage of physicians, but six seems really high? Do you mean barber-surgons or Feldshers?

I basically copied the numbers from here and changed it a little to add to my flair/try and alleviate problems that the Prussians were having without metagaming or whatever. My theory is that the professional nature of the Prussian army means that individual soldiers are expensive enough to care well for, and that Landwehr battalions(which I will do later) are less well staffed.

I expect that if I were to actually RP their deployment in wartime, these numbers would be the ideal rather than the reality, as with so much else.

Federated Kingdom of Prussia

Just a heads up, those cannons are understaffed to put it mildly. For a gun that size to be moved around and operated on the battlefield you're gonna need over twice that many men at least. Just to show an example; Within the french Gribeauval system the cannons used and the necessary number of men needed to use them were as follows:

Canon de 4 Gribeauval = 8 men, 3–4 horses
Canon de 8 Gribeauval = 13 men, 4 horses
Canon de 12 Gribeauval = 15 men, 6 horses

Another thing to mention is you should probably have more cannon types than one. A Light gun for general anti-personal work, but also a heavier cannon for anti-structure purposes and long range killage would be nice. Finally but not least some type of howitzer is necessary for the period in question. Indirect fire has its uses, especially in a siege.

Granted I just sort of made up those gun crew numbers without actually looking it up. But I'd rather not complicate things by having a multitude of different artillery pieces within the same unit. Each regiment has organic fire support from six gun pieces; in large, setpiece battles, these individual batteries would have to come together and become more organized than many different batteries just shooting at whatever they wanted to. I expect that would be a hectic and confused affair, and probably lead to far less effectiveness from the artillery than their paper organization would suggest, but that was exactly what happened at Jena; if I were to make another one of these based in 1815 I'd concentrate the artillery into French-style Grand Batteries.

[Puzikas]

Im thinking that there's a translation difference with the term. Five surgeon of the 1806 era would be kind of like having a cumulative 80 years of schooling. Im betting they're more analogous to the Barber-surgeons (Stübner) than full appointed surgeons, because, to put it quite bluntly, they're too important to risk in that quality at that level. I could see if it was one surgical with assistants, but five seems quite remarkable.

Unless there's a significant difference in what a German surgeon is compared to a French, English or Russian one.

[Puzikas]

Side note there's quite an easy way to figure this out: look at the casualties of era in conflicts involving Prussia and their foes, and compare the Prussian losses as death from wounds as a percent vs the same for their opponent. If across the spectrum you see that the Prussians loose less men to wounds than the enemy by a significant percent (say, 20% to 30%), than it's probably true that the Prussians did in fact have way more doctors than I assume.

[Federated Kingdom of Prussia]

How much would a single qualified surgeon be able to care for the soldiers in his unit? Given how complex modern combat medicine and recovery can be despite the high level of care soldiers get on and off the battlefield, would most of the injured soldiers in even a smallish Napoleonic battle die or be maimed? Musket balls and spike bayonets cannot be any less terrible to be injured by than 5.56mm NATO and shrapnel.

[Fordorsia]

Did barber surgeons give their patients a free shave if their wounds were particularly bad?

Musket balls and spike bayonets cannot be any less terrible to be injured by than 5.56mm NATO and shrapnel.

Musket balls explode you

[Fordorsia]

Actually I'd be interested in the process of dealing with someone who'd been hit centre mass with a musket, because isn't the thing that large caliber musket balls carry a hell of a lot more energy than modern bullets because of their weight? Today, I mean, because back then I believe you'd just be ignored in favour of people who can actually be saved.

[Crookfur]

Im thinking that there's a translation difference with the term. Five surgeon of the 1806 era would be kind of like having a cumulative 80 years of schooling. Im betting they're more analogous to the Barber-surgeons (Stübner) than full appointed surgeons, because, to put it quite bluntly, they're too important to risk in that quality at that level. I could see if it was one surgical with assistants, but five seems quite remarkable.

Unless there's a significant difference in what a German surgeon is compared to a French, English or Russian one.

Well in the British army all you had to do to become surgeon was graduate with some kind of medical degree (anywhere from 3 to six years, most commonly 4 IIRC) the .get commissioned a hospitals mate. It looks like you spent 6 months to a year as a mate before you could be posted to a regiment as an assistant surgeon and anywhere frim a couple of months to a decade to make it to regimental surgeon (advancement was pretty much by spaces becoming available).

Of course some of the British armies best surgeons of the era didn't have a degree but had spent some time at a medical school and picked up enough to pass the medical board.

I honestly don't see the Prussians being all that different given the huge influence they had on the late 18th century British army but I have no idea what kind of central medical services they had compated to the british army and maybe the training of hospital mates that was done centrally in the British army was spread out over the regiments. Undoubtedly there would only be one battalion surgeon although what level his fellows were at I have no idea.

[Puzikas]

How much would a single qualified surgeon be able to care for the soldiers in his unit?

It depends upon the era and the national origin of the surgeon. An individual surgeon alone can only do so much, which is why they usually have assistants. Broadly speaking, their task was to provide what we today refer to as emergency and primary care, being responsible for both surgical procedures and the general well-being of troops, but typically the actual primary care would have been practiced by his assistants, who would send them to him for major issues or other concerns.
Medicine is a support network. While Doctors and Nurses and such have an arsenal of medical knowledge, they tend to not be the most personable of people (doctors less, nurses more) and have a lot going on, so individually they can become weighted down with information overload.

Given how complex modern combat medicine and recovery can be despite the high level of care soldiers get on and off the battlefield, would most of the injured soldiers in even a smallish Napoleonic battle die or be maimed? Musket balls and spike bayonets cannot be any less terrible to be injured by than 5.56mm NATO and shrapnel.

Most soldiers wounded in combat of the era actually died of infection or environmental factors. Died from wounds usually refers to death by shock, bloodloss, or actually having been killed quickly by a shot to a lethal area like the brain, heart, lungs or severance of major blood vessels.

The reason so many people survive today is because of how good our medicine is compared to how it was. If I went back in time to, say, 1806, just using what I know in my mind, I would be a far more successful surgeon than the majority of equivalent surgeons of the era.

If I could bring a medical bag weighing no more than 18 kilos I could tripple that. If I could bring my PA, quadruple that, and if you could transport a trauma team from any of the 203 Level I trauma hospitals in America, and only what they can carry in a bag, that team could literally be more efficient than the whole of the French Medical Corps.
And probably the English as well.

And not much of that is hyperbolic. Medicine is literally that much better now.

Musket balls explode you

Their PCCs are actually quite unremarkable were not it for their size

[Fordorsia]

PCC?

[Puzikas]

Permeant Crush Cavity.

Actually I'd be interested in the process of dealing with someone who'd been hit centre mass with a musket, because isn't the thing that large caliber musket balls carry a hell of a lot more energy than modern bullets because of their weight? Today, I mean, because back then I believe you'd just be ignored in favour of people who can actually be saved.

Energy does not always mean effectiveness. While energy plays a role in trauma, it is neither the most important nor in the top five factors for actual lethality.

The shot location is the most important. If you were shot cener mass in your abdomen, with a typical .68 caliber musket ball at 50 meters distance, you were likely to die of infection as a result of the fecal matter or bile that seeped from the wounded area, or the severance of your Inferior epigastric artery, resulting in massive blood loss, OR shock.

Typical treatment of today involves sanitation and surgical closure of the wound. In the era, it involves removal of the ball, which often resulted in more bloodloss.

[Federated Kingdom of Prussia]

Interesting. Is it possible that regular soldiers might have some glimmer of medical knowledge? I'm sure it doesn't take a genius to realize that putting pressure on a stab or gunshot wound means less blood comes out. Not that it might make that much of a difference.

Also, how did soldiers deal with the psychological aspect of attacking straight at the enemy, shoulder-to-shoulder? In pre-gunpowder times, soldiers could at least trust in their skill at arms and such; attacking a line of Napoleonic-era musketeers must have been nerve-wracking, because you have no way of knowing which bullet has your name on it, and you don't have the luxury of taking cover or whatever. I had a history teacher tell me that lining soldiers up shoulder to shoulder and marching them forward with music blaring and officers yelling makes troops perhaps not willing to attack, but at least realizing that there is nowhere else to go.

[Fordorsia]

So nowadays the chance of survival from either kind of bullet is pretty much the same? My secret redcoat army doesn't have the upper hand?

[Puzikas]

Is it possible that regular soldiers might have some glimmer of medical knowledge?

Senior enlisted might from exposure. If a soldiers close family member was a medical professional or worked on a farm or something they probably would understand bare fundamentals but I don't think its anything close to today.

I'm sure it doesn't take a genius to realize that putting pressure on a stab or gunshot wound means less blood comes out. Not that it might make that much of a difference.

You say that, but you have a lifetime of understanding in the modern era. Private William R. Simpon, 1 Squadron of the Northumberland Fusiliers, might reason that when he pushes on a wet ground, more water comes out, and ergo pushing on his mates stomach will make more blood come out.

Also, how did soldiers deal with the psychological aspect of attacking straight at the enemy, shoulder-to-shoulder?

They didn't. Not well, at least. Combat puts you in a different mindset and the more you see that mindset the more different you become.

It was kill or be killed.

So nowadays the chance of survival from either kind of bullet is pretty much the same? My secret redcoat army doesn't have the upper hand?

We moved away from musket balls for a reason.

[Spirit of Hope]

I think I've mentioned this before, but there was a US naval surgeon in the war of 1812 who washed his equipment with soap and hot water. He thought it would make the medical equipment cut faster and not feel as bad while carring out amputations. His patients ended up having the best survival rate of any US unit pre WW1.

[Fordorsia]

He thought it would make the medical equipment cut faster

Is that the guy who sonic'd so fast he killed three people in one operation?

[Spirit of Hope]

He thought it would make the medical equipment cut faster

Is that the guy who sonic'd so fast he killed three people in one operation?

Nope, diffrent guy. His thinking was along the lines of "soap makes things slippery, a slippery saw won't get stuck, and a warm saw won't feel so bad against the flesh" or something.

[Puzikas]

Dr. Richard C. Edgar IIRC.

The Burlington Military Hospital was the world's most efficient hospital at the time and the base model for all hospitals thereafter. Straw in beds was changed every 21 days, and burned if the patient died. Sheets were aired daily, clothing was changed daily and washed, chamber pots were cleaned three times a day with an early charcoal agent, patients were washed and hair was combed every day, nurses and attending needed 8 hours of rest between their time tables, they were paid well and fed. Doctors were forbidden from drinking anything but water on the job.

And yet in February an outbreak of bacterial pneumonia killed like 30% of the emergency wards patients.

He thought it would make the medical equipment cut faster

Is that the guy who sonic'd so fast he killed three people in one operation?

Dr. Robert Liston
Who was actually a very accomplished surgeon.

[Fordorsia]

How do you even managed to accidentally cut off your assistant's fingers tho

Not very smaht

[Puzikas]

Picture it.

You're laying on a wooden table. An elderly woman is wiping your face with what she assures you is warm water, but it feels as cold as the icy winds outside that you had just been pulled from. All around you are the wounded and dying. You're one of them. Rigid men in white aprons with fantastic facial hair harrumph and trundle about with fantastically sharp knives and menacingly grey sawblades.
You become aware quite suddenly that attention seems to have shifted to you. The only physical attention being paid to you is still this unpleasantly old Irish woman, quietly assuring you you'll be okay, and that the doctor is coming.

With a fever in his step, a man with the most fantastical side burns you have ever seen storms into the room. In his hand, an ominous looking brown bag, and in tow, a positive mountain of a man and a sheepish looking boy, not more than a year your senior. The nurse hushes you as you let out a wet choke, half in fear at the three muskaqueers that have walked in, and half in pure pain.

The nurse steps aside as the mountain puts you in as near to a suplex hold as possible, forcing you to the table. From his bag of tricks, the side burns produce a saw, with a blade that glimmers in the dim light of the operating theater. Just from the sound of it's movement, you can tell it is sharp.

"Time me, Gentlemen!", he shouts. You feel a hand on your knee, and one on your thigh. A wooden dowel enters your mouth, which you clamp down on. The mountain pushes down on you, a sudden brute application of force that, as effortless as it seems to him, has overwhelmed any modicum of strength you think you have ever been able to muster. As you struggle against his casual display of power, you feel quite suddenly a tearing sensation of the flesh near your mid thigh. The cold is now replaced by heat, and pain. You clamp your jaw down upon the dowel with all your might, tasting the oaky pulp flowing down your throat. You attempt to thrash your leg, but it's no use, the immobilizer is somehow stronger than beefy, who is still casually pinning you to the table.

The ripping and shredding of your flesh stops quite suddenly as you hear a crackling. The pain surges through you like a bolt of lightning as your bone begins to splinter to bits. You black out in pain, only to come to as the final strokes come. With a scream, the room errupts into a theater of applause. But the scream as not yours. The sheep boy pulls his hand up as a soft thump of your leg hitting a bucket of sawdust reaches your ear. His fingers are gone. At this sight, the elderly woman who had been comforting you falls back, strikes her head and expires quite suddenly. You feel faint, and black out. They forgot to close your wound quickly in the excitement. The boy dies some time later from infection, while you die of bloodloss.

Such is life in Moscow in HMs Army.

[Fordorsia]

F

[Western Pacific Territories]

Post

Really makes you appreciate how shit medical treatment used to be.

Then again in 200 years they'll laugh at how we treated cancer tumors by giving the patient doses of radiation compared to how in the land of 2222 they just eliminate cancer cells by proscribing liquids mixed in with cancer-eliminating genes or something.`

[Puzikas]

The fucked up thing is that through most of medical history it's just obvious bullshit that ends up saving lives.

One of my biggest fears is human kind killing itself with its own weaponize autism because im part of that weaponized autism

[Fordorsia]

papa puz what's the worst injury you've seen someone survive?

[Puzikas]

Literally can not talk about it