Infantry Discussion Thread 10: Shovel Edition [NO FWORDS]

[Tule]

If you're worried about penetrating armor with a pistol you're already having a very bad day.

This would not be intended to penetrate like NIJ IV plates to any degree, but rather most probably concealable armor like maybe NIJ 1 / 2A / 2 or something.

9mm NAMMO High Performance would do the trick.

[Spreewerke]

9mm has probably killed more people than there exists .40 S&W cartridges.

9x19mm is probably the optimal handgun cartridge. Like 5.56x45mm is the optimal rifle cartridge.

On that logic the best rifle cartridge is the 8mm Mauser.

That's because 7.92x57mm IS is the best rifle cartridge.

[Prosorusiya]

Proposed MVD Squad, MK. 2:

2x Lightmachine Gunners, RPD
4x Riflemen, AKMS
2x Grenadiers, RPG-7, AKMS
and in one squad per platoon an RPG-7 grenade launcher is replaced by an LPO-50 flame thrower.

Used to have one RP-46, but not being able to fire and move with it probably makes it the less useful of the two LMGs my MVD have, along with the RPD. Puzikas, any suggestions? I am tempted to replace the RPG-7s with RPG-22\LPO-A to make my troops more mobile dismounted. They'd be in BTR-60s, probably either -PAs or -PBs.

Alos, does anybody know about the East Germans' use of old WW2 flamethrowers to shoot tear gas? Did they need special modifications? I kinda like that idea for my MVD: a weapon that's simultaneously non- and hyper- lethal!

[Gallia-]

Grenadier should be a single team. One RPG-7 and his assistant.

Perhaps replace LPO-50 with the RPO, or replacing the RPG-7 team with an LPO-50 "team"?

Other than that it looks OK.

[Eisarn-Ara]

On that logic the best rifle cartridge is the 8mm Mauser.

That's because 7.92x57mm IS is the best rifle cartridge.

I love my mauser Spree, it's soft-shooting but heavy hitting. (It may just be soft shooting due to my size though(6'8" + shoulder build, ect)

[Gallia-]

I'm 5' 7" 115 lbs and I consider 7.62x54mmR to be soft.

Probably because the only rifle cartridges I've fired were 7.62x54mmR, .30-30, and .30-06?

[Eisarn-Ara]

I'm 5' 7" 115 lbs and I consider 7.62x54mmR to be soft.

Probably because the only rifle cartridges I've fired were 7.62x54mmR, .30-30, and .30-06?

Fuckin' Nicccccccccceeeeeeeeee.

[Prosorusiya]

Revised MVD Squad:

2x Lightmachine Gunners, RPD
4x Riflemen, AKMS
1x Grenadier Team, 1 Grenadiere & 1 Assistant , 1 RPG-7 & 2 AKMS
and in one squad per platoon an RPG-7 team is replaced by an LPO-50 team.


Also thinking about giving at least one RPD & one AKMS per squad night vision...

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

This would not be intended to penetrate like NIJ IV plates to any degree, but rather most probably concealable armor like maybe NIJ 1 / 2A / 2 or something.

9mm NAMMO High Performance would do the trick.

5.45×18mm 7N7 (7Н7): spitzer-pointed full metal jacket bullet with steel conical core.[3] The bullet energy is stated to be up to 1.5 times that of the .25 ACP in a similar sized cartridge. More importantly, it is stated to be capable of penetrating 45 layers of Kevlar soft body armor at close distances.[4]

This sounds like no mean feat to be honest, assuming it's true.

Additionally, the round that I actually want to use would be similar in design to the 5.45x18mm, but based around a necked down .380 ACP case, which has the same 25mm OAL, a less than 1mm shorter case but a almost 2mm larger base diameter, which I reckon should offer somewhat increased case capacity and thus some more powder and more energy.

As I've explained, this would be for very concealable, .380 ACP-pattern blowback micro pistols. If additional power is desired, subcompact (or larger) variants of my 7.62x25 / 9x25 service pistol may be selected instead.

[Allanea]

Revised MVD Squad:

2x Lightmachine Gunners, RPD
4x Riflemen, AKMS
1x Grenadier Team, 1 Grenadiere & 1 Assistant , 1 RPG-7 & 2 AKMS
and in one squad per platoon an RPG-7 team is replaced by an LPO-50 team.


Also thinking about giving at least one RPD & one AKMS per squad night vision...

For what human purpose do you arm your police with 1950s liquid-firing flamethrowers? Do you have some incredible amounts of heroin being grown in your country that your cops need to go out and burn them every single day?

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

Revised MVD Squad:

2x Lightmachine Gunners, RPD
4x Riflemen, AKMS
1x Grenadier Team, 1 Grenadiere & 1 Assistant , 1 RPG-7 & 2 AKMS
and in one squad per platoon an RPG-7 team is replaced by an LPO-50 team.


Also thinking about giving at least one RPD & one AKMS per squad night vision...

For what human purpose do you arm your police with 1950s liquid-firing flamethrowers? Do you have some incredible amounts of heroin being grown in your country that your cops need to go out and burn them every single day?

Sir, you seem to be under the erroneous assumption that barbecues will make themselves.

[The Archangel Conglomerate]

Hey hey, it's a gun

A machine pistol, even. Safety is a three position push button dealio, with the right-most setting being safe, the centre being 'brrrt' and the left-most being semiautomatic. Magazine holds twenty rounds of 7,92mm VBR. The barrel is 10,5cm, and the gat is. . . stupid light, probably

[Puzikas]

Proposed MVD Squad, MK. 2:

2x Lightmachine Gunners, RPD
4x Riflemen, AKMS
2x Grenadiers, RPG-7, AKMS
and in one squad per platoon an RPG-7 grenade launcher is replaced by an LPO-50 flame thrower.

Used to have one RP-46, but not being able to fire and move with it probably makes it the less useful of the two LMGs my MVD have, along with the RPD. Puzikas, any suggestions? I am tempted to replace the RPG-7s with RPG-22\LPO-A to make my troops more mobile dismounted. They'd be in BTR-60s, probably either -PAs or -PBs.

Alos, does anybody know about the East Germans' use of old WW2 flamethrowers to shoot tear gas? Did they need special modifications? I kinda like that idea for my MVD: a weapon that's simultaneously non- and hyper- lethal!

The correct term wouldn't be MVD for a said like this. It would be a interdiction team or a special purpose units like OMON/ODON, 604th OSN-VV, OSNAZ units, but not a standard MVD unit.

MVD are the police of Russia. The police are federalized. Local juristications have their own MVD, who are subordinate to a general command staff of the area, who are beholden to federal level politics at low levels.

A MVD patrol unit is 7 men, one sergeant: two secondary rank officers, and four officers. Each car has one long arm rifle: an AK-74M, AK-100 series, or PP-19-01, and one Shotgun. Officers carry various flavors of pistols, ranging from PMs to PMMs to Glock 17/19s to APS pistols. The sergeants patrol car is similar to an American patrol command car. The patrols work in groops of 3, lead by a feild leader ranked as either a jr LT or a Lieutenant. These patrol groups are then grouped further up to precinct levels which are lead by a Captain, and then regions/areas of the city are lead by Major, and the city or region is commanded by a Colonel, and then you get to saff rankings of various flavors of general.

Special units like the 604 OSN-VV are composed of Sergeants, lead by Praporshchiks, lead by flavor rank LTs. Their operations are overseen by higher rank officers, usually the teams are lead in the feild by a Captain; sometimes these units are lead by troops coming from other services like the VDV, MPR or army SpetSnaz. They should be considered special units for special purposes, very often they are not trained in normal policing duties and are used as force protection or live their life as Garrison troops. These teams vary dramatically in composition and are usually trained on literally all small arms in Russian standard inventory.

The MVD also has many distinct branches: Patrol, Traffic, Forrest Service, Criminal Investigation, Prison Service, , Emergency Management (shared with EMERCOM), Cybercrime, Internal Troops, Customs Enforcement (Shared with the FSB), Court system, Transport troops, Justice Service, licencing, aviation, and more.

The use of LPO-50s is dubious at best. Again, I only ever saw one to an unfortunate reserve unit in the field. While the MVD HAS them, they're for controlled burns. Reactive flamethrowers are better.

Most MVD internal troops in Russia by 1996 were motorized in the BTR-70 and roof armor versions of the BTR-60. Most either didn't have the gun installed or never carried ammunition for them outside of Chechnya.

[New Visayan Islands]

9mm Pansy is literally the worst cartridge ever invented

.40 S&W or bust

Did somebody say ".40 Short and Wimpy?"

I jest, of course. .45 Auto FTW!

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

9mm Pansy is literally the worst cartridge ever invented

.40 S&W or bust

Did somebody say ".40 Short and Wimpy?"

I jest, of course. .45 Auto FTW!

.357 Magnum and 10mm Auto & larger are the only non-wounding handgun cartridges

[Gallia-]

9mm Pansy is literally the worst cartridge ever invented

.40 S&W or bust

Did somebody say ".40 Short and Wimpy?"

I jest, of course. .45 Auto FTW!

.40 Snuggly and Warm would be a good 9mm if it were made 100 years ago TBF.

[Eisarn-Ara]

Did somebody say ".40 Short and Wimpy?"

I jest, of course. .45 Auto FTW!

.40 Snuggly and Warm would be a good 9mm if it were made 100 years ago TBF.

.40 Snuggly & Warm? that's a new one

[Gallia-]

snuggly
wuggly

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

(Warning: boring and pedantic ahead)

overthinkingit.gif

OK, so after a bit of research, I think I've identified a couple of "problems" with traditional pocket pistol designs and a couple of ways to remedy them. Most of the improvements that I think would be useful are pretty much all present in the Beretta Tomcat (which is relatively unique in its size class), but still the Tomcat is somewhat bigger than the Seecamp (which is the smallest pistol I know of chambered in .380 ACP), and, in a way, less suited towards concealed carry. It lacks the rounded-off shape of the rest, it has an exposed hammer (being a DA/SA) pistol, etc. However, the tilt-barrel on the Tomcat is truly an awesome feature.

So, the most common gripes about the Seecamp are the following:

-long, hard trigger pull
-no sights
-sharp edge to trigger guard ; tends to bite into hand
-somewhat sharp recoil due to low weight
-not enough grip real estate / dangling pinky or even ring finger depending on hand size

My proposed solution to what I feel would make for the "ultimate" pocket pistol:

-Retain the overall shape and size of the Seecamp for the extreme concealability
-Retain the DAO operation and hidden hammer
-Integrate the slide release button from the NAA Guardian for easier field stripping compared to the original Seecamp design
-Usually, a hard and long trigger pull on a pocket pistol is an intentional feature designed to compensate for the lack of a manual safety. However, it can prove to be unpleasant and possibly lead to decreased accuracy and effective fire rate. Integrate a different safety mechanism (ideally the one with the smallest physical/mechanical footprint) such as a grip safety (which would have a bonus for being an "instinctual" safety), minimal thumb slide-stopping safety or Glock-like trigger safety. Then, get rid of the dreaded trigger pull for a nicer, shorter and lighter trigger pull with a nice short reset.
-Integrate dovetails/removable sights and/or a slide built-in sight like a central groove or something. If utmost snag-free, concealable carry is required, do without the sights, but otherwise it's nice to have the option to have some low profile/rounded off sights.
-Maybe have interchangeable grip plates to allow for a fatter or thinner grip.
-In order to allow for more grip real estate, have the option of grip-matching magazine extensions for stock mags and for extended mags. This should allow the user to easily customize the height of the grip, possibly allowing bigger handed individuals to get a better grip on the gun.
-The Seecamp has a standard 2" barrel. Obviously this isn't going to translate into record breaking muzzle velocities. Have the additional option of mounting extended barrels (i.e. 2.5" , 3" ballpark) - a longer slide could be nice but isn't mandatory. I'd reckon this could make the difference between penetrating and not penetrating. Additionally, make sure to use ammunition with fast burning powders to make the most of the .380 ACP in the tiny barrel. Unburnt powder is wasted powder.
-Also, have some threaded barrels to allow for use with a silencer.
-Have some sort of laser sight or combination light/laser. Because of the diminutive size, such a device would most probably either use something like a watch battery format or perhaps a custom-made Li-Po/Li-Ion designed to maximize use of the available space. A grip-integrated laser is an option, although it would increase width. I'd reckon a better place, and one that would also maybe allow for a small light to be integrated as well for a combination light-laser, would be below the frame, in front of the trigger guard. Probably the best way to allow for the mounting of such accessories would be to have a rail on the bottom of the frame, even if it's just 1 groove.
-The location of the mag release on the bottom of the grip is somewhat awkward. I'd reckon a better option could perhaps be with a more traditional placement at the joining point between the trigger guard and the grip, assuming this could be made small enough as to not create a "bulge" in the grip that would interfere with using it (as can be seen somewhat on the NAA Guardian), or, alternatively, on/inside the grip itself, as is the case with the Beretta Tomcat.
-I don't think I've seen this done before, other than maybe on like competition pistols/revolvers but even then I'm not sure. One major gripe is the relatively snappy recoil, in part caused by the relatively low mass of the gun and the diminutive contact area with the shooter's hand, at least compared to a larger pistol. The latter can be mitigated through the use of grip plates and grip-matching magazine extensions for standard or extended mags. The former should logically be mitigated through increasing the mass of the pistol, although I'd say permanently doing so could be undesirable. Additionally, the Seecamp is already made out of stainless steel as opposed to other lighter alloys or even polymer, so perhaps other than a thicker walled construction, there is no way to increase mass as it's not like the pistol is made out of a really lightweight material. I was thinking maybe adding non-permanent ballasts, like perhaps a weighted grip for example, could be a solution?

The main point would be to maintain the core extreme concealability and relative lightweight, while allowing for an increase in capabilities through e.g. extended mags, barrels, etc. when and if required.

The laser sight especially I think would be a great addition for a pocket pistol - they make some now IRL that turn themselves on when you un-holster them.

Perhaps with some of the changes that I've suggested here, the Seecamp could be a pistol that is effective at more than just point blank ranges, maybe like up to 25m.

[Purpelia]

What about having the laser on switch also be the safety? That way you (and the attacker) can instantly know if your gun is ready to fire without having to spend precious moments being careful to fiddle with the safety properly.

[Federated Kingdom of Prussia]

9mm Pansy is literally the worst cartridge ever invented

.40 S&W or bust

.40 Short and Weak is almost as bad as .38 Special Needs.

[Federated Kingdom of Prussia]

Alt-history Prussian army time! Circa 1800:

The infantry regiment is the basic unit with which Prussian generals lead armies. A Prussian infantry regiment is divided into the following:
- General Staff
- 1 Artillery battery(6 guns nominally)
- 2 Grenadier companies
- 2 Musketier battalions

Each musketier battalion is divided into the following:
- 20 Officers
- 60 NCOs
- 20 Musicians
- 20 Sappers
- 600 Musketiers and 60 Reserves*
- 50 Jagers
- 6 Surgeons
- 10 Colorguard
(Each musketeer battalion is divided into four equal companies, with those divided into half-companies.)

Each Grenadier company is divided into the following:
- 7 Officers
- 15 NCOs
- 7 Musicians
- 200 Grenadiers
- 3 Surgeons
- 5 Colorguard

The standard field gun of the Prussian army is the 9-pdr horse drawn gun, and each gun crew is five men each led by a sergeant, and all reporting to a lieutenant who reported to the battalion commander.

The standard deployment for a single infantry regiment in battle is to put his grenadier companies on the far right flank, prepared to attack. Sometimes this flank is refused to draw the enemy farther in. The artillery is placed on a hill or elevated area where it is able to fire on the enemy without endangering friendly soldiers. The main body of Prussian musketiers deploy in the standard three-line formation(which can be thinned to two if greater width is needed) and advance to musket range, where the Prussian soldiers have been drilled to fire and reload to outgun the enemy troops. Jager companies are generally divided between supporting the grenadier companies or defending the left flank.

When the moment is right, the grenadier companies move up on the right flank. They are trained to either give one full volley and charge or less commonly fire and advance, relying on speed and shock to crumble the enemy flank. If the enemy has reinforced their flank in preparation for this, grenadier company commanders are generally trained to give a fighting retreat while the other flank of Prussian musketiers and jagers fire and attack.

Yes I forgot to write anything about cavalry but I don't want to type anymore. Thoughts?

[Puzikas]

Did a battalion REALLY have that many surgeons in the Prussian tradition? I know only the Russian and french usage of physicians, but six seems really high? Do you mean barber-surgons or Feldshers?

[Torrocca]

Did a battalion REALLY have that many surgeons in the Prussian tradition? I know only the Russian and french usage of physicians, but six seems really high? Do you mean barber-surgons or Feldshers?

puz those surgeons are necessary to the war effort

they're there to surgically remove the disease that is the non-prussian enemy of course

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

What about having the laser on switch also be the safety? That way you (and the attacker) can instantly know if your gun is ready to fire without having to spend precious moments being careful to fiddle with the safety properly.

This could be a good idea assuming you can still have the (or another) safety on the gun without the laser mounted, which could be desirable.

You could add to this the self-activation when pulled out of holster so doing so simultaneously activates the laser and disengages the safety. IT is assumed that normally when you unholster this type of firearm you are immediately ready to fire since you would be in a self-defense situation, or at least if the gun is unholstered IT should be in your hand so you have control over the trigger as opposed to having the pistol placed somewhere where the trigger may be accidentally pressed by something. Assuming your laser is in working order and has a charged battery IT will remind you itself that the safety is off so You don't leave IT that way when You don't want to.

As I've said, there is also the option of safeties that do not require fiddling around and instead are disengaged "automatically" when You grasp or fire the gun, such as a grip safety as you see on 1911s or a trigger safety as you see on Glocks.

Also I've forgot to mention that an extended magazine will obviously improve round capacity on top of allowing for additional grip real estate and that it doesn't necessarily add to the footprint of the gun. You can either carry the weapon without a magazine and the mag itself somewhere else on your body (not a great idea) or be a back-up magazine to a standard length one in the gun that You can swap in assuming you have the time or after You empty the first mag.