Infantry Discussion Thread 10: Shovel Edition [NO FWORDS]

[Gallia-]

Horses don't do that. At least not the ones I've worked with, and I ride with some seriously good equestrians. Or if they can be trained to stand still when left alone, I've yet to meet one that can do that.

Horses I've ridden would just stand around and wait for you to come back if you needed to go do something.

Would they do the same if you shot a gun close enough for them to hear?

[Crookfur]

When dragoons dismounted to fight on foot, what did they do to their horses? Did dragoons carry a spike to tie their horse to, or did some dragoons stay with the horses to make sure they didn't get away?

Typically 1 in 4 or 5 dragoons stayed with the horses when they were operating dismounted. The horses would generally be moved a distance away from the action but would be ready to be brought forward and rapidly recounted should it be required.

Pretty much the same scenario existed for most of your mid 19th to early 20th century mounted units.

[Puzikas]

Puzikas, out of interest, what kind of units in Soviet Army had COIN training? Was it only the Spetznav, or were their MP units that could do that as well? Looking for the sort of troops that might make good "peacekeepers". Also, were MVD ever deployed outside of the Soviet Union, like in Afghanistan?

On a more general note, what are the protocols for INTERPOL deploying police in foreign countries? Can they deploy foreign police to other countries? Or do they just work with local forces?

Before 1982, only the KGB and some SpetSnaz units would showcase a level of compitance in combating an insurgency. The Soviets sent advisors all over the world to teach how to fight an insurgency, something the USSR was highly proficient in as a result of its partisans in WWII, but had never really had to fight a modern insurgency.

After 1982, when the USSR learned much from it's conflict in Afghanistan, the bulk of Soviet units being trained for the GSFA or SpetSnaz units being rotated in would receive mountaineering, engineering, small unit tactic, and/or Airmobility training. By the stage in which the USSR was in it's draw down, the bulk of the actual combat forces were trained in some degree of COIN
The MPs were included in this.

The MVD have been deployed outside of the USSR and Russia but those operations are at best foggy and at worse highly compartmentalized information.

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

Anyone have sauce on the general performance of 5.45x18mm? Does it make for a semi-decent round at close to very close ranges?

I pretty much want to have a similar round based on .380 ACP (which has a 17mm long case and has a bigger base diameter I think) which would neck down to like 5.6-5.7mm diameter (the 5.45x18mm actually has a 5.63mm diameter bullet). This would be for a pistol based on the RL blowback Seecamp pocket pistols because they seem to make the smallest .380 around. You could switch between the two cartridges with a barrel swap. Is it practical to have both cartridges engineered to generate the same blowback so they cycle correctly in the gun?

It has practically a 2" barrel. Obviously the purpose would be as a "deep cover" / backup gun for police and other sneaky special applications.

My main 7.62x25/9x25 pistol also has a subcompact and slimline subcompact variants, so the above wouldn't be the sole option for the roles that I've stated.

[Tule]

Anyone have sauce on the general performance of 5.45x18mm? Does it make for a semi-decent round at close to very close ranges?

I pretty much want to have a similar round based on .380 ACP (which has a 17mm long case and has a bigger base diameter I think) which would neck down to like 5.6-5.7mm diameter (the 5.45x18mm actually has a 5.63mm diameter bullet). This would be for a pistol based on the RL blowback Seecamp pocket pistols because they seem to make the smallest .380 around. You could switch between the two cartridges with a barrel swap. Is it practical to have both cartridges engineered to generate the same blowback so they cycle correctly in the gun?

It has practically a 2" barrel. Obviously the purpose would be as a "deep cover" / backup gun for police and other sneaky special applications.

My main 7.62x25/9x25 pistol also has a subcompact and slimline subcompact variants, so the above wouldn't be the sole option for the roles that I've stated.

I'm skeptical of pistol ammunition smaller than .32 ACP because it tends to underpenetrate.

I don't know much about the 5.45x18, but I doubt it has adequate penetration behind body armor.

Remember, bullets can be great at penetrating certain mediums and terrible at penetrating other seemingly weaker mediums.

[Puzikas]

It's slightly more powerful than .22lr.
It is not gud

[Gallia-]

If it were the only pistol cartridge we wouldn't have nearsightedness.

Because all nearsighted people would lose noontime duels due to shot placement.

Martial superiority assured.

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

OK, so it's not going to be any better than .380 ACP at penetrating armor (which isn't much) (or even if it was, terminal effects are so weak it's still shit) ? So there's no reason to bother and I should just use .380 ACP?

[Nirvash Type TheEND]

If you're worried about penetrating armor with a pistol you're already having a very bad day.

[Tule]

OK, so it's not going to be any better than .380 ACP at penetrating armor (which isn't much) (or even if it was, terminal effects are so weak it's still shit) ? So there's no reason to bother and I should just use .380 ACP?

9x19 mm ammo exists which will penetrate soft body armor quite easily. As does 7.62x25 and most "sidearm" cartridges.

But if you want something concealable that will also go through kevlar at close range, you might as well use a dagger.

[EsToVnIa]

9mm Pansy is literally the worst cartridge ever invented

.40 S&W or bust

[Gallia-]

9mm has probably killed more people than there exists .40 S&W cartridges.

9x19mm is probably the optimal handgun cartridge. Like 5.56x45mm is the optimal rifle cartridge.

[Fordorsia]

9mm only causes flesh wounds

[Tule]

It's not the size or the speed that counts. It's just a matter of hitting the right spots.

[Gallia-]

It's not the size or the speed that counts. It's just a matter of hitting the right spots.

Even if those spots are behind very thick clothing!

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

9mm only causes flesh wounds

Tell that to Oan Ali Mohammed.

[Norcourt]

I think this is a bit too modern for 1918, but hey...Alternate universe, eh?

[Allanea]

9mm has probably killed more people than there exists .40 S&W cartridges.

9x19mm is probably the optimal handgun cartridge. Like 5.56x45mm is the optimal rifle cartridge.

On that logic the best rifle cartridge is the 8mm Mauser.

[Gallia-]

Unironically it's probably pretty close for being a "GPC".

[Puzikas]

What I love about Galla is he's always on that next level shit

[Eisarn-Ara]

It's not the size or the speed that counts. It's just a matter of hitting the right spots.

Even if those spots are behind very thick clothing!

Just use 9x40mm Lija dude.

[The Archangel Conglomerate]

Best solution

[Eisarn-Ara]

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

If you're worried about penetrating armor with a pistol you're already having a very bad day.

This would not be intended to penetrate like NIJ IV plates to any degree, but rather most probably concealable armor like maybe NIJ 1 / 2A / 2 or something.

[Puzikas]

Shit like that 7.5FK Brno and 9x19mm 7N21/31 are intended to defeat armor beyond what they normally would be able to do in a given spectrum
Though 7.5FK is not intended to do it in sure a FMJ loading would have penetration within 50m near par with 5.56