Infantry Discussion Thread 10: Shovel Edition [NO FWORDS]

[Puzikas]

M4A1s, AK-74M2s, H&K 416A5s, QBZ-95, AKMs, and various special purpose rifles
AK-12 is a meme that will never happen and is already dead
Much to Gallas Chagrin the M4 steady marches on in the only Western state that matters anymore
He&K will shill it's rifle until it can no longer draw breath
China rifle will stay where it is
And AKMs will be in use until the end of ends

E: however if Russia chooses to adopt the A545 I will be rather pleased as it represents and advantage in basically every way over the existing Kalashnikov systems and will be one of the few major advances (an actual recoil mitigation system built into the weapon) in small arms since 1967

[Laritaia]

SO, for foreseeable future, we'll use M16s, AK-12s, HK 416s?

when in the light of the dying sun the last man kills the penultimate man for the last oxygen tank in existence among the rings of Saturn it will be with an AR-15.

[Puzikas]

Wait I have something for this

Hey Aquiz are you still around/alive my dude?

[Purpelia]

Depends on what you mean by "man-portable". I can see some type of Bazooka sized shoulder fired laser cannon for AT purposes in maybe a couple decades.

Very unlikely. Your average human being simply can not use a kinetic anti tank weapon that can threaten modern armor and survive the recoil. Relatively recoilles missiles and rockets will always be preferable for this reason. And an EM guns one and only advantage would be wasted on those.

And lasers and plasma just won't work due to physics.

[Gallan Systems]

SO, for foreseeable future, we'll use M16s, AK-12s, HK 416s?

when in the light of the dying sun the last man kills the penultimate man for the last oxygen tank in existence among the rings of Saturn it will be with an AR-15.

mfg. 1967

the first m16a1 kills the last enemy

the final gat

his war is over

[Austrasien]

When will portable laser/plasma or even magnetic gun will be available for average GI?

Depends on what you mean by "man-portable". I can see some type of Bazooka sized shoulder fired laser cannon for AT purposes in maybe a couple decades.

Lasers are perhaps the worst choice for destroying a heavily protected target. Even if personnel lasers were a thing this is one the applications they would not be used for.

Helps logistics not having to make and then drag in cartfuls of material from a far away place to another far away place now you can resupply on the battlefield itself.

No, replacing bullets with even more fuel will not benefit anyone.

[Theodosiya]

well, how about proliferation of smoothbores?

[Laritaia]

well, how about proliferation of smoothbores?

what do you mean?

[Theodosiya]

well, how about proliferation of smoothbores?

what do you mean?

Dart gun or something like that. Given tank gun nowadays are 120/125mm Smoothbore, would small arms goes that way too?

[Laritaia]

what do you mean?

Dart gun or something like that. Given tank gun nowadays are 120/125mm Smoothbore, would small arms goes that way too?

probably not.

The Styer ACR while a fascinating weapon from an operating perspective, it's choice of projectile is a dead end.

[The Archangel Conglomerate]

The flechette is the only viable way forward for small arms ammunition. Mitty arrow marches eternal

---

Made a thing

[Laritaia]

The flechette is the only viable way forward for small arms ammunition. Mitty arrow marches eternal

---

Made a thing
(Image)

the results of the ACR trials suggest otherwise

[The Archangel Conglomerate]

I seem to recal said trials indicating greater accuracy, penetration and potential terminal effectiveness

[EsToVnIa]

which is why it got adopted

[Taihei Tengoku]

M4A1s, AK-74M2s, H&K 416A5s, QBZ-95, AKMs, and various special purpose rifles
AK-12 is a meme that will never happen and is already dead
Much to Gallas Chagrin the M4 steady marches on in the only Western state that matters anymore
He&K will shill it's rifle until it can no longer draw breath
China rifle will stay where it is
And AKMs will be in use until the end of ends

E: however if Russia chooses to adopt the A545 I will be rather pleased as it represents and advantage in basically every way over the existing Kalashnikov systems and will be one of the few major advances (an actual recoil mitigation system built into the weapon) in small arms since 1967

Latest rumors are that the Russians are doing both AK-12 and A545?

[The Archangel Conglomerate]

Might also have been due to the tremendous costs and risks involved with trensitioning to such a new and relatively unproven round. Or it may not have been better enough. Either is possible, though I'd bet on it being both

[Kazarogkai]

"Although the Steyr design proved effective, as did most of the weapons submitted, the entire ACR program ended with none of the entrants achieving performance 100% better than the M16A2, the baseline for a successful ACR weapon."

It seems that the standards were just a bit too high honestly. Not exactly fair nor reasonable but whatever. Also from what I remember, weren't the guns that used these things rifled not smooth bored?

[Federated Kingdom of Prussia]

In the Napoleonic Wars and Seven Years' War, how many volleys between regular infantry formations were exchanged before one or both sides charged? From my readings, massed bayonet fights between two large infantry formations almost never happened, although small-scale bayonet fights were relatively common. I've also heard that infantry in the US Civil War suffered higher casualty rates than European observers were used to, because both sides often stood off and kept shooting, without ever resorting to the bayonet.

[Puzikas]

M4A1s, AK-74M2s, H&K 416A5s, QBZ-95, AKMs, and various special purpose rifles
AK-12 is a meme that will never happen and is already dead
Much to Gallas Chagrin the M4 steady marches on in the only Western state that matters anymore
He&K will shill it's rifle until it can no longer draw breath
China rifle will stay where it is
And AKMs will be in use until the end of ends

E: however if Russia chooses to adopt the A545 I will be rather pleased as it represents and advantage in basically every way over the existing Kalashnikov systems and will be one of the few major advances (an actual recoil mitigation system built into the weapon) in small arms since 1967

Latest rumors are that the Russians are doing both AK-12 and A545?

It's not the *real* AK-12, they've renamed it to the AK400 and changed it a fair bit.
I don't see either being adopted standard, and I see the AK-74M2 being the standard. They have, IIRC, about 10,000 of each in field trials, mostly with the MVD, FSB and SpetSnaz.
The thing is all of the upgrades to the AK-74M2 are similar to those of the AK-12: receiver rail improvement, modular foreend, adjustable and folding stock, ect. These are all things special units have been doing in Russia since the late 90s.
The only way forward aught to be the A545. I used the AEK-971 and I genuinely found it to be Superior to the AK-74M in most regards.

potential terminal effectiveness

Reeeeee

It seems that the standards were just a bit too high honestly

Oh are we going over the ACR program again
Because I can go over that with a fine tooth comb for you

[Gallan Systems]

"Although the Steyr design proved effective, as did most of the weapons submitted, the entire ACR program ended with none of the entrants achieving performance 100% better than the M16A2, the baseline for a successful ACR weapon."

It seems that the standards were just a bit too high honestly. Not exactly fair nor reasonable but whatever. Also from what I remember, weren't the guns that used these things rifled not smooth bored?

It's the difference between 3/10 and 6/10 hits on a target range.

They decided that boomy bullets would make it easier to kill people because you wouldn't have to hit them.

This was pre-TrackingPoint so computer assisted aiming was a bit far away. Approximately three decades away.

[Purpelia]

In the Napoleonic Wars and Seven Years' War, how many volleys between regular infantry formations were exchanged before one or both sides charged? From my readings, massed bayonet fights between two large infantry formations almost never happened, although small-scale bayonet fights were relatively common. I've also heard that infantry in the US Civil War suffered higher casualty rates than European observers were used to, because both sides often stood off and kept shooting, without ever resorting to the bayonet.

The answer is as many as it took for the overall battlefield to turn in such a way that one side felt it could win with a bayonet charge. I genuinely don't think that there is a more precise answer to be had unless you want to literally trawl through historical accounts and do statistics.

[The Archangel Conglomerate]

potential terminal effectiveness

Reeeeee

u r just mad that fishhook kills harder than spinny 545 trash

[Theodosiya]

Puz, did you have any experience using Shmels, RPG-30 or RPG-29?

[Puzikas]

Yes to all
No wait not the Rpg-30
The other one

u r just mad that fishhook kills harder than spinny 545 trash

But they don't :|

It's the difference between 3/10 and 6/10 hits on a target range.

It was actually 3.6/30 (rounded to 4) to 7/30
The best result they got was 8.1/45, rounded to 8/45.

Probably, at least.
I think we discussed this at great length once and agreed the ACR program was never intended to actually succeed but actually came kinda close.

[Theodosiya]

Closest west equivalent to Shmel? Also, what level is RPG-29? Platoon? SInce people here thought that's too heavy for squad.